Saddened by the armor and clothes

[ryoendymon]

I am seeing so much about the coming changes to armor and clothing, and god it looks horrible. 

The sets would have been a nice addition to the existing setup, like build the sets into the clothing part of gearing your character so that clothes were more than just asthetics.  But to replace all armor with it....it just takes away from the game, the customizability.  It feels like now you're going to have to dedicate at least 8-12 of your inventory slots to carrying around sets of gear for different things you might want to do.

Wish you would have just made the clothes into these sets, and left the armor separate

 

[8_Hussars]

I am kind of with you on the armour changes, as I dislike the idea of sets providing "essential" bonuses vice "environmental" bonuses.

Having said that trying to keep an open mind.

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, ryoendymon said:

I am seeing so much about the coming changes to armor and clothing, and god it looks horrible. 

The sets would have been a nice addition to the existing setup, like build the sets into the clothing part of gearing your character so that clothes were more than just asthetics.  But to replace all armor with it....it just takes away from the game, the customizability.  It feels like now you're going to have to dedicate at least 8-12 of your inventory slots to carrying around sets of gear for different things you might want to do.

Wish you would have just made the clothes into these sets, and left the armor separate

 

How would it be any worse?  Currently, you aren't getting any of these new set bonuses at all.  With the new armor, you do get bonuses on each piece and then a set bonus if you want the entire set.  So even if you have a single set (or a mixed set), you'll still have more bonus than you have currently.  Sure, you could have multiple sets and swap between them if you are a min/max player, but it definitely won't be necessary and probably not really all that worthwhile.

 

My only concern is that that armor pieces might look really messy if you wear pieces of different armor instead of using a full set.  The armors are just so different from one another.  But the wardrobe system they will be adding should solve that issue.

[Roland]

Having played it, at least in my opinion, the outfits are far superior to what we have had.

 

+ Looks better

Due to pre-1.0 clothing and armor having to layer on top of one another, everything looked puffy. There was a short time before equipping armor that the clothing options looked good but once armor and clothing were worn together it all looked dismal. The new outfits look great and since the armor stats are cooked in you aren't covering up your clothes and they just look fantastic. Looking at other players or yourself on your bike is a pleasure now. Even mixed sets still look pretty good and better than a lot of the clothing mixtures that can be done in A21.

 

+ A ton more variety of appearances

Superficially it seems like going from 10 to 4 slots would yield less variety but the opposite turns out to be true since armor no longer layers over our clothes. Once you put armor on in A21 the clothes aren't really seen except through gaps in the armor and where the layers clip through each other looking awful. Now there are 4-5 light armor sets, 4-5 medium armor sets, and 4-5 heavy armor sets that aren't ever covered up. That is way more variety in the final armored-up appearances than we had before.

 

+ Much more satisfying armor progression

Armor progression feels almost exactly like the old weapon assembly system from years ago where your weapon had separate parts that added their own stats and had their own quality tier to make your whole weapon an amalgamation of those things. Your overall armor now works exactly like that. Swapping in this piece or that to create a full set that has a different mix of stats as your armor gets better and better is a lot of fun. People have been asking for that weapon system back again for years and now it is back in the form of outfits. The progression is so similar that anyone who was around back then and remembers assembling their weapons will immediately get a reminiscent feeling when collecting a new armor piece and slotting it in. I recognized it almost immediately upon swapping in a new part and getting rid of an old part. That great feeling I remembered was back again. I never really tied the two together in my mind before I had played but it hit me like a ton of bricks while playing.

 

+ Bonuses

The bonuses start out small and ramp up with quality. For the whole early game you are unlikely to even have a full set of anything to get any full set bonuses. It won't be until later that you will have been able to collect full sets and since the size of the bonus is related to the quality tier it may be that it will be even longer until you have a full set of top quality pieces that would make the min/maxer demon inside you jump up and compell you into wanting to carry around multiple sets. TFP has already posted that in their first major update this year they will add a Wardrobe System which will help with changing outfits for those that must wear the appropriate clothing for the appropriate activity they are about to do.

 

+ Less OP and better balanced for mod slots

Sorry, but I have always felt like 10 slots each with up to 4 slots for mods is just OP and eliminates any need for making choices. Maybe if they had dozens and dozens of different mod types that could slot into your gear then 40 mod slots might be okay but they don't and there is rarely any need to choose between this mod or that mod since there are so many slots available to use. Now there will be a max of 16 slots and that is much better balance and will require choices. 

 

2 hours ago, ryoendymon said:

It feels like now you're going to have to dedicate at least 8-12 of your inventory slots to carrying around sets of gear for different things you might want to do.

Wish you would have just made the clothes into these sets, and left the armor separate

 

If they had just made the clothes we have in A21 into these sets you would still feel the need to carry around multiple sets but it would be 10 inventory slots instead of 4 for each set giving even less inventory space....lol

[ryoendymon]

1 hour ago, Riamus said:

How would it be any worse?  Currently, you aren't getting any of these new set bonuses at all.  With the new armor, you do get bonuses on each piece and then a set bonus if you want the entire set.  So even if you have a single set (or a mixed set), you'll still have more bonus than you have currently.  Sure, you could have multiple sets and swap between them if you are a min/max player, but it definitely won't be necessary and probably not really all that worthwhile.

 

My only concern is that that armor pieces might look really messy if you wear pieces of different armor instead of using a full set.  The armors are just so different from one another.  But the wardrobe system they will be adding should solve that issue.

How is it worse? Because it leads to a minmaxing situation, and takes away from the survival aspect of the game.  

Previously, you went for armor (light vs heavy) to focus on your defenses, balance ability to sneak, tank, etc.  Clothing was separate and as part of your survival, it was focused for you dealing with differing climates, times of day, and even weather. 

Now, they've just rolled it all into 4 simple slots and insisted "this bonus goes with this level of armor"  They have taken away that part of survival management.  

You are looking at the wardrobe on an asthetic level, but that wasn't the purpose of the clothing before.  If you wanted to head to the desert, you needed clothing to shed heat, like tank tops, shorts, etc.  Going to the snow, you break out your puffer coat, and sweatshirt. 

What this is going to lead to is a basic minmax meta, something that most games suffer from. Your bags are going to feel required to have Set 1 of clothing for fighting, set 2 for bartering, and probably sets 3-4-5 for various resources, instead of your actual skills accounting for that.

I feel like this is going to be a dramatic shift that is going to make the game suffer, because it's taking the game out of the survival aspect and into the RPG aspect.   

1 minute ago, Roland said:

Having played it, at least in my opinion, the outfits are far superior to what we have had.

 

+ Looks better

Due to pre-1.0 clothing and armor having to layer on top of one another, everything looked puffy. There was a short time before equipping armor that the clothing options looked good but once armor and clothing were worn together it all looked dismal. The new outfits look great and since the armor stats are cooked in you aren't covering up your clothes and they just look fantastic. Looking at other players or yourself on your bike is a pleasure now. Even mixed sets still look pretty good and better than a lot of the clothing mixtures that can be done in A21.

 

+ A ton more variety of appearances

Superficially it seems like going from 10 to 4 slots would yield less variety but the opposite turns out to be true since armor no longer layers over our clothes. Once you put armor on in A21 the clothes aren't really seen except through gaps in the armor and where the layers clip through each other looking awful. Now there are 4-5 light armor sets, 4-5 medium armor sets, and 4-5 heavy armor sets that aren't ever covered up. That is way more variety in the final armored-up appearances than we had before.

 

+ Much more satisfying armor progression

Armor progression feels almost exactly like the old weapon assembly system from years ago where your weapon had separate parts that added their own stats and had their own quality tier to make your whole weapon an amalgamation of those things. Your overall armor now works exactly like that. Swapping in this piece or that to create a full set that has a different mix of stats as your armor gets better and better is a lot of fun. People have been asking for that weapon system back again for years and now it is back in the form of outfits. The progression is so similar that anyone who was around back then and remembers assembling their weapons will immediately get a reminiscent feeling when collecting a new armor piece and slotting it in. I recognized it almost immediately upon swapping in a new part and getting rid of an old part. That great feeling I remembered was back again. I never really tied the two together in my mind before I had played but it hit me like a ton of bricks while playing.

 

+ Bonuses

The bonuses start out small and ramp up with quality. For the whole early game you are unlikely to even have a full set of anything to get any full set bonuses. It won't be until later that you will have been able to collect full sets and since the size of the bonus is related to the quality tier it may be that it will be even longer until you have a full set of top quality pieces that would make the min/maxer demon inside you jump up and compell you into wanting to carry around multiple sets. TFP has already posted that in their first major update this year they will add a Wardrobe System which will help with changing outfits for those that must wear the appropriate clothing for the appropriate activity they are about to do.

 

+ Less OP and better balanced for mod slots

Sorry, but I have always felt like 10 slots each with up to 4 slots for mods is just OP and eliminates any need for making choices. Maybe if they had dozens and dozens of different mod types that could slot into your gear then 40 mod slots might be okay but they don't and there is rarely any need to choose between this mod or that mod since there are so many slots available to use. Now there will be a max of 16 slots and that is much better balance and will require choices. 

 

 

If they had just made the clothes we have in A21 into these sets you would still feel the need to carry around multiple sets but it would be 10 inventory slots instead of 4 for each set giving even less inventory space....lol

Again, the problem is it's taking the game from the survival aspect to an RPG aspect, I realize that there is @%$# all i can do about it, except maybe hope someone makes a mod to get rid of this crap.  

[Roland]

23 minutes ago, ryoendymon said:

Previously, you went for armor (light vs heavy) to focus on your defenses, balance ability to sneak, tank, etc.  Clothing was separate and as part of your survival, it was focused for you dealing with differing climates, times of day, and even weather. 

Now, they've just rolled it all into 4 simple slots and insisted "this bonus goes with this level of armor"  They have taken away that part of survival management.  

You are looking at the wardrobe on an asthetic level, but that wasn't the purpose of the clothing before.  If you wanted to head to the desert, you needed clothing to shed heat, like tank tops, shorts, etc.  Going to the snow, you break out your puffer coat, and sweatshirt. 

 

It's hard to comment on this as I don't even know the exact plans for environmental survival. I do know they are overhauling weather effects and adding radiation into the mix and are going to really make the biomes more of a progression to the point you will be severely punished for entering one without the right preparation. I'm not sure how they plan to incorporate that type of gear in with the outfits but they definitely don't want environmental protection to be something that gets lost in this change. It might a bit at first but they plan to bring it back with more impact than it has ever had in a future update.

 

8 minutes ago, ryoendymon said:

What this is going to lead to is a basic minmax meta, something that most games suffer from. Your bags are going to feel required to have Set 1 of clothing for fighting, set 2 for bartering, and probably sets 3-4-5 for various resources, instead of your actual skills accounting for that.

 

How gamers choose to approach the game is on the players. As I stated, for a big portion of the game players are going to be wearing whatever they can get and just be glad of the minimal bonus that each piece adds. With four pieces of the outfit equipped at brown quality level they might get one extra inventory space, 2% wood harvest bonus, 5% less chance to take fall damage, and 2% better chance to get seeds when harvesting crops. (for example). If you get a new piece that grants a 2% better chance to dismember then you won't be swapping out entire outfits. More likely you'll decide which four bonuses you like best and wear those pieces. If the 2% dismemberment bonus is desirable but the piece is heavy armor and you don't want the side effects of heavy armor you might decide to sell that piece and keep what you have.

 

If players are getting apoplectic over the min/maxing opportunity costs of 2% bonuses then they really should be pursuing other entertainment activities for their own mental health.  The propensity for some players to min/max shouldn't guide their game design as blocks and gates to prevent min/maxing causes suffering for all whereas when game designs CAN be min/maxed but don't HAVE TO BE then only the min/maxers suffer-- and not even all the min/maxers. Only the self-loathing ones actually suffer.

 

Now eventually, those bonuses get larger as the quality of the pieces get higher as the game progresses. There will probably reach a point where most players will want to equip the right type of armor for the type of activity they are about to do which is why TFP is planning a wardrobe system with the first update.

 

33 minutes ago, ryoendymon said:

I feel like this is going to be a dramatic shift that is going to make the game suffer, because it's taking the game out of the survival aspect and into the RPG aspect.  Again, the problem is it's taking the game from the survival aspect to an RPG aspect, I realize that there is @%$# all i can do about it, except maybe hope someone makes a mod to get rid of this crap.  

 

Unfortunately, this game has always been planned to be a mixture of Survival, First Person Shooter, Role Playing, and Base Defense. If you focus on one of those aspects and believe that it is primarily that type of game then you will always be disappointed when it diminishes a bit in the genre you like best and enhances a bit one of the genres you don't care about. You bought the wrong game if you hate RPG elements because they are and will continue to be a big part of the game. Mods are definitely your only hope if you want to excise the RPG elements and keep this game predominately survival oriented.

[Khalagar]

Changes look really good IMO, not sure why there's so much hate over it.

[Adam the Waster]

im really for it, i think about it in ways like Fallout 3 or NV


the armor in the game was simple. hell this version is far better. but things in it made it special!

i do hope we also get the other bandit armors too

[Riamus]

4 hours ago, ryoendymon said:

How is it worse? Because it leads to a minmaxing situation, and takes away from the survival aspect of the game.  

Previously, you went for armor (light vs heavy) to focus on your defenses, balance ability to sneak, tank, etc.  Clothing was separate and as part of your survival, it was focused for you dealing with differing climates, times of day, and even weather. 

Now, they've just rolled it all into 4 simple slots and insisted "this bonus goes with this level of armor"  They have taken away that part of survival management.  

You are looking at the wardrobe on an asthetic level, but that wasn't the purpose of the clothing before.  If you wanted to head to the desert, you needed clothing to shed heat, like tank tops, shorts, etc.  Going to the snow, you break out your puffer coat, and sweatshirt. 

What this is going to lead to is a basic minmax meta, something that most games suffer from. Your bags are going to feel required to have Set 1 of clothing for fighting, set 2 for bartering, and probably sets 3-4-5 for various resources, instead of your actual skills accounting for that.

I feel like this is going to be a dramatic shift that is going to make the game suffer, because it's taking the game out of the survival aspect and into the RPG aspect.   

Again, the problem is it's taking the game from the survival aspect to an RPG aspect, I realize that there is @%$# all i can do about it, except maybe hope someone makes a mod to get rid of this crap.  

I would disagree on much of this.  Granted, without seeing it in action, I can't say for sure.  But first of all, few people other than new players care about clothing temperature bonuses.  Temperature doesn't matter in the game right now.  It will, but it doesn't now.  The only real effect is more water and food usage.  But that is hardly someone to be concerned about. 

 

I do agree that some bonuses probably don't make realistic sense for a piece of armor, but that is hardly unusual in games.  Gameplay trumps that reality.

 

As far as min/maxing, a player is either a min/maxer or they aren't.  Few people switch it up.  Anyone who doesn't min/max isn't going to start just because maybe one armor gives you a little bonus to some activity and another gives a bonus to another activity.  You will pick the armor you like or that benefits the activity you do most and not bother with it.  Unless bonuses are OP, people who don't min/max won't waste time or inventory space for it.  And if the bonuses are OP, they shouldn't be.

 

As far as RPG goes, this game isn't going to shy away from that genre regardless what some people prefer. RPG has been past of this game for quite a while and they are going to continue to have it be part of the game.  This isn't only a survival game.

[MechanicalLens]

2 hours ago, Khalagar said:

Changes look really good IMO, not sure why there's so much hate over it.

 

People don't like change. TFP could change the icon for chrysanthemum flowers, and TheGamersTM would call it oppression.

[MechanicalLens]

39 minutes ago, Riamus said:

As far as RPG goes, this game isn't going to shy away from that genre regardless what some people prefer. RPG has been past of this game for quite a while and they are going to continue to have it be part of the game.  This isn't only a survival game.

 

This. People have different tastes, so not one game has to cater to everybody, which is an impossible task within itself anyway. Sometimes regretful purchases happen, and that sucks, and if you can't get a refund, you move on and treat it as lesson learned. (For example, I couldn't get into BG3 because I don't like turned based combat.) However, this doesn't mean the game is inherently flawed. If you can't mod out what you don't like about an experience, it's healthier to chalk it up as a loss and move onto something you do genuinely enjoy. I don't understand people who stick with a game while hating it with every fibre of their being. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy for resentment and dissatisfaction.

 

Edit reason: spelling errors (hooray to insomnia)

Edited June 15 by MechanicalLens (see edit history)

[8_Hussars]

21 hours ago, Roland said:

If players are getting apoplectic over the min/maxing opportunity costs of 2% bonuses then they really should be pursuing other entertainment activities for their own mental health.  The propensity for some players to min/max shouldn't guide their game design as blocks and gates to prevent min/maxing causes suffering for all whereas when game designs CAN be min/maxed but don't HAVE TO BE then only the min/maxers suffer-- and not even all the min/maxers. Only the self-loathing ones actually suffer.

In general I appreciate your posts but I think you made a bit of a straw man here, suggesting players are being "apoplectic".

 

Player's have not played this version.  Player's do not have any context on the type and number of bonuses and how they impact game play.  Hence the valid discussion as no info has been released.

"Trust me, is not's bad" is not really defensible; within in the context of the long developmental cycle and many changes to game mechanics and balance over the years.

I don't really care about aesthetics, but If the bonuses are so small and insignificant then why have set bonuses in the first place?

[RyanX]

Not really sure why the appearance of the armor is even up for discussion seeing as how you are in first person and don't look at yourself anyway.  And so few people are going to care about multiplayer anymore.

[Roland]

56 minutes ago, 8_Hussars said:

In general I appreciate your posts but I think you made a bit of a straw man here, suggesting players are being "apoplectic".

 

I was being more snarky than serious here. It was a more poke at general behavior of some min/maxers about current and past mechanics of the game that they perceive to be forcing them to play in a particular manner.

 

56 minutes ago, 8_Hussars said:

 

Player's have not played this version.  Player's do not have any context on the type and number of bonuses and how they impact game play.  Hence the valid discussion as no info has been released.

 

If players have no information then their discussions are only as valid as whatever correct assumptions they make and as invalid as whatever incorrect assumptions they make. There are some people discussing from the perspective that they don't know anything and are expressing idle worries or hopes which is good. But there are plenty who have decided their assumptions, speculations, and guesses for how it will be is gospel and argue from that perspective and they honestly have no idea if what they speculate is actually real. That's ridiculous.

 

56 minutes ago, 8_Hussars said:

"Trust me, is not's bad" is not really defensible; within in the context of the long developmental cycle and many changes to game mechanics and balance over the years.

 

Like any review, you have to realize that your preferences and sensibilities may be different than the reviewers. You want to defend the arguments of people hating on the new features whom you admit have never played it and don't have any information and then say that my firsthand gameplay analysis is indefensible? Okay. Its fine to discount a review if it sounds like the reviewer doesn't match up with yourself in your preferences. I understand that so I wouldn't give my impressions under the umbrella of "Trust me". Rather I would give my impressions as "This is my take after playing it but you will have to see how you like it". If you read it the first way then I'm sorry I gave that impression.

 

56 minutes ago, 8_Hussars said:

I don't really care about aesthetics, but If the bonuses are so small and insignificant then why have set bonuses in the first place?

 

The bonuses are small for brown quality and progressively get better for orange, yellow, green, blue, and purple. My point was that for the first portion of the game, players will be wearing lower quality armor and mixed pieces rather than full sets so not much compulsion to take the time to change armor for the individual and set bonuses. That feeling of needing to change before chopping trees or mining or bartering may increase as the bonuses get bigger but hopefully we will only have 5-6 months of tedious outfit changing until they add the wardrobe system and make it very simple to do.

 

Plus, while you may not care about aesthetics the developers do and they are the ones who have control over whether there are bonuses included large or small. They would have wanted better aesthetics even if they didn't add the bonuses anyway. They were extremely unhappy with the aesthetics of the armor layered over clothing.  Whether any one individual player cares about aesthetics or not has no bearing on whether the game makers are going prioritize aesthetics. 

 

 

16 minutes ago, RyanX said:

Not really sure why the appearance of the armor is even up for discussion seeing as how you are in first person and don't look at yourself anyway.  And so few people are going to care about multiplayer anymore.

 

Yeah but we all know what you mean by "multiplayer" (30+ strangers robbing and killing each other). There are plenty of people who play the kind of multiplayer that you are dismissive of (2-8 friends playing cooperatively) and they will be looking at each other and appreciate the new outfits, character models, 3rd person animations, and look feature. Plus, even in solo you see yourself every time you are driving a vehicle and there is a large portion of the game that you are driving around.

Edited June 15 by Roland (see edit history)

[theFlu]

3 hours ago, RyanX said:

seeing as how you are in first person and don't look at yourself anyway

I think over-the-shoulder 3rd person was at least in the works at some point, no idea if it's actually getting done though. Kinda hope so, but I can live either way .. but it would make looks more important.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

I think over-the-shoulder 3rd person was at least in the works at some point, no idea if it's actually getting done though. Kinda hope so, but I can live either way .. but it would make looks more important.

 

Two big reasons they originally removed it from being able to be selected without the debug menut was because the 3rd person animations were so bad it just looked horrible. Also it wasn't a good fit for PvP which they were still somewhat undecided on whether the game would focus more on PvE or PvP. Obviously, they chose PvE which makes some of the cheats and exploits possible with a camera set back from the player much less game breaking (so what if I can see my ally through the world terrain working at our base) and they just finished overhauling all 3rd person view animations.

 

So hopefully they will bring it back.

[binf_shinana]

I think that the changes to clothing and armor are generally good.
To begin with, the temperature change system in the vanilla game wasn't fully utilized as something that added interest to gameplay.

 

For that reason, it's not a bad idea to simplify the temperature-related game system all at once and make it easier to manifest temperature debuffs using only skill and clothing set bonuses.

 

It would require tedious operations if you wanted to manage the bonuses in detail.

However, since the current armor will be given further strengthening abilities, the difficulty will be even easier than it is now, and there will probably not be much need to change clothes at all.

 

In other words, I think that the result will be not much different from the current situation of "ignoring the effects of temperature."

In the end, what remains is an HD version of the player character, so the result is a positive one.

[Riamus]

19 minutes ago, binf_shinana said:

I think that the changes to clothing and armor are generally good.
To begin with, the temperature change system in the vanilla game wasn't fully utilized as something that added interest to gameplay.

 

For that reason, it's not a bad idea to simplify the temperature-related game system all at once and make it easier to manifest temperature debuffs using only skill and clothing set bonuses.

 

It would require tedious operations if you wanted to manage the bonuses in detail.

However, since the current armor will be given further strengthening abilities, the difficulty will be even easier than it is now, and there will probably not be much need to change clothes at all.

 

In other words, I think that the result will be not much different from the current situation of "ignoring the effects of temperature."

In the end, what remains is an HD version of the player character, so the result is a positive one.

Temperature/weather will be updated after 1.0 so that it has more impact.  They haven't given any details other than saying radiation will become an environmental effect in the wasteland.

[binf_shinana]

1 minute ago, Riamus said:

Temperature/weather will be updated after 1.0 so that it has more impact.  They haven't given any details other than saying radiation will become an environmental effect in the wasteland.

Yes, that is true, but at the moment it is still just a plan and we don't know how it will be implemented, so it may still end up not having much of an impact, or it may have such a big impact that certain clothing becomes almost essential for each biome.
I would like to discuss that once it is actually implemented.

[HardeQ]

On 6/15/2024 at 2:10 AM, MechanicalLens said:

 

People don't like change. TFP could change the icon for chrysanthemum flowers, and TheGamersTM would call it oppression.

Lmao people just share their opinion on the dog@%$# changes. Game has been 11 years in early access and they release it to 1.0 half-baked. What do you expect? You think people will eat up the slop? They just release it for the sake of releasing it. Imagine we have to wait 2 years for story mode that should have been from version 1.0. Stop defending this slop.