Bring back water jars or let us craft them!

[Rotor]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

For true fully sandbox gameplay you really need to just enable the creative menu and use godmode as desired to just do whatever you want with no gameplay consequences.

 

I believe that is a reach on your part, but whatever, maybe I did the same trying to express myself.

 

Best regards.

Edited January 29 by Rotor (see edit history)

[Roland]

On 1/28/2024 at 5:33 PM, theFlu said:

Now, go have fun!

 

Sorry if I've misread you and misunderstood what you meant by the colloquialisms you used. I am having fun playing a rotation of five games right now-- one of which is 7 Days with @BFT2020's mod that changes quest rewards to just Dukes and loot set to 50%. One of the games is Palworld and it does make me think how much fun it would be to have NPCs we could set to do tasks at our base. Maybe for 7 Days 2....

[Roland]

On 1/28/2024 at 6:25 PM, Rotor said:

 

I believe that is a reach on your part, but whatever, maybe I did the same trying to express myself.

 

Best regards.

 

There's "sandbox" like Gary's mod which is what I consider the purest form of sandbox gameplay. In that sense, enabling the creative menu and using godmode would be the closest emulation of Gary's mod for this game.

 

Then there's "sandbox" like any story-absent open world game where you do what you want without the constraints or pressure of a main questline. I think 7 Days still has plenty of this kind of sandbox gameplay but it admittedly had more in the past before RPG progression elements were added. Every restriction or rule that gets added to a game takes a bit of this sandbox ability away because now there are things you can't choose.

 

So I don't think I was reaching when I said that for full and complete sandbox (like Gary's Mod) you can enable settings to get that and have no restrictions whatsoever. You can also change settings to change rules you don't like so much. For example, you could temporarily use the creative menu to put 5 water filters in your starting inventory and then your required dependence on the trader is completely gone. That makes the game more sandboxy.

 

[Rotor]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

For example, you could temporarily use the creative menu to put 5 water filters in your starting inventory and then your required dependence on the trader is completely gone. That makes the game more sandboxy.

 

 

Is okay, thank you.  I will stick with "bucket" mod.  It is a "natural" "immersive" progression.  Again, I hope that is still doable in the future.

[BFT2020]

17 minutes ago, Rotor said:

 

Is okay, thank you.  I will stick with "bucket" mod.  It is a "natural" "immersive" progression.  Again, I hope that is still doable in the future.

 

Another option is adding the filters as a possible loot item in loot containers like those utility carts.  Make it a low chance so it doesn't become too common of a drop, but have it higher chance than those destroyed dew collectors we don't run across as much.

[theFlu]

7 hours ago, Roland said:

Sorry if I've misread you and misunderstood what you meant by the colloquialisms you used.

No wuvvies; it's mildly infuriating, but that's a me problem.

 

Palworld looks like good fun, in all it's disgusting cuteness I'm thinking of getting either that or Enshrouded, but they both kinda seem one-and-done games for me. Nothing wrong with that, but I ain't got the budget for too many of such.

[zztong]

38 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Another option is adding the filters as a possible loot item in loot containers like those utility carts.

 

I added a recipe that lets me craft an "Unfiltered Dew Collector" that produces Murky Water. There's a recipe to add a filter later if you want to get a regular Dew Collector.

 

These are in addition to letting me carry Murky Water away from a water source like a lake or river.

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Rotor said:

 

Is okay, thank you.  I will stick with "bucket" mod.  It is a "natural" "immersive" progression.  Again, I hope that is still doable in the future.

 

Sure. The best solution is always mod but for those who don't feel comfortable modding or even downloading an existing mod there is a lot you can do with the creative menu without completely abandoning the survival game. Whether it is through modding or using creative menu there is a lot you can do to alter the gameplay of 7 Days to Die which is in and of itself a type of sandbox of settings you can experiment with--the sandbox within the sandbox.

 

I wonder if Leonardo DiCaprio has ever played 7 Days to Die....?

2 hours ago, theFlu said:

No wuvvies; it's mildly infuriating, but that's a me problem.

 

Palworld looks like good fun, in all it's disgusting cuteness I'm thinking of getting either that or Enshrouded, but they both kinda seem one-and-done games for me. Nothing wrong with that, but I ain't got the budget for too many of such.

 

I got Palworld for now and have Enshrouded on my wishlist for the Summer Sale. My own budget dictates that I pace myself by the big sales.

[Ttocs]

In every single version on both PS4 and PC, in every playthrough, the top left inventory slot was always glass jar slot. 

I keep it empty completely now in loving memory of them (not really but the first sentence was true)    😃

Edited February 1 by Ttocs (see edit history)

[TWORDY]

A storm in a teacup. Honestly, I am happy with the current changes. The game comes closer to modern standards with every update. Less cluttered, smaller amount of unnecessary mechanics is a good thing. Nostalgia is the only thing that comes into the equation, at least on my side.

 

Newcomers usually do not fully comprehend how the game is meant to be played. For me, taking a sip of murky water in the early stages of the game is compulsory to survive. Water can be easily obtained at traders and nearby POIs dedicated to food etc.! I feel there is some challenge finally in the early stages of the game in which I have to prioritize water and food supplies over grinding XP, enhancing my base, or collecting other materials. But some preferred OG mining, building in the early stages of the game... sure thing.

 

The only problem that arises is the lobby with 4-5 other friends who do not bother properly looting POIs, and mates continuously drop the murky water. There is no solution or workaround until the late game (or 150% amount of overall loot) ... with due collectors. The glass jar pain lasts through early and mid-game. In late game water or food supplies are no longer a problem so what is the fuzz all about?

 

I like the change mainly because I don't have to micromanage empty jars, and I have predominantly murky water in my inventory while looting. 

 

The system will be tweaked with meaningful feedback for sure.

[Saera]

I really do not miss the 6984321 glass jars found in the first few hours of looting though, so right now I like this change.

Just wish they would go back to it at some point and find another way.  Maybe not craftable jars - only lootable (and rare-ish find), and there is a chance that they will break after use, or during water purification.

[TWORDY]

What comes to my mind is water as a necessary item/ingredient for concrete to make things slightly more complicated. Some lads mentioned that in other posts/threads. What I would rather have the option of a wooden iron/metal bucket to fill up with murky water. This could be the late-mid-game solution and water might be also obtained in some other manner. Also, 15 murky glass jars might count as one bucket. Dew Collectors with water purifiers/filters could collect drinkable water. Perhaps, for glue production, there might be other workaround also. I would rather have options and even 2-3 pathways to success. Players would not have had a problem with getting some water in rookie lobbies as it is now, or at least in the later stages of the game. 

 

It`s my quick assumption of what I have seen in my games and what some of the players are looking for at the forums. 

[FramFramson]

39 minutes ago, TWORDY said:

What comes to my mind is water as a necessary item/ingredient for concrete to make things slightly more complicated. Some lads mentioned that in other posts/threads. What I would rather have the option of a wooden iron/metal bucket to fill up with murky water. This could be the late-mid-game solution and water might be also obtained in some other manner. Also, 15 murky glass jars might count as one bucket. Dew Collectors with water purifiers/filters could collect drinkable water. Perhaps, for glue production, there might be other workaround also. I would rather have options and even 2-3 pathways to success. Players would not have had a problem with getting some water in rookie lobbies as it is now, or at least in the later stages of the game. 

 

It`s my quick assumption of what I have seen in my games and what some of the players are looking for at the forums. 

 

You might want to look at this: https://7daystodiemods.com/bang-for-your-bucket-an-alternate-early-game-water-system/

 

(I know it's shameless self-promotion and I already posted in this thread, but people keep describing the exact things this mod does and saying they wished that was how the game worked! Well, good news!)

[TWORDY]

1 minute ago, FramFramson said:

(I know it's shameless self-promotion and I already posted in this thread, but people keep describing the exact things this mod does and saying they wished that was how the game worked! Well, good news!)

 

There are a few things worth considering.

1. How to make progression/gating of certain items/processes in the game, so players do not get the Juice before the first Sunday supper.

2. How to keep survival elements or uncertainty/struggle at least in the early stages of the game. So players would prioritize to survive instead of building fortresses on day 2.

3. How to make a clear pathway(s) to success in later stages of the game, making the journey rewarding and enjoyable at the end of the day.

4. How to get rid of obligatory micro-management every single moment/time, or rather by making certain activities optional in later stages of the game.

 

The only issue I see right now with the current system - My teammates who do think continuously that the infamous Murky Water is a trash item in the early stages of the game. There is no way right now to get to the pond at least in the later stages of the game. In essence, to get as much water as necessary as it used to be with an infinite supply number of glass jars.

 

I have no problem with shameless self-promotion Framson 👄 💯

[Azrهel]

I skip 7 pages to state my take on this.

Survival Games totally departing from reality is not good game design, especially when it is unlogical.
The Humans in 7DTD are perfectly capable of creating a freaking rocket launcher out of an assortment of specialized parts for that weapon (whatever e.g. "Rocketlauncher Parts" in practice is to you in your imagination) and simple items.

But crafting a in comparison rather simple glass to catch some water is totally beyond their mind? Especially when they encounter this item EVERY FREAKING DAY while looting and traders have jars with clean water in them?
And everytime they use it, they fumble the jar out of their hands and it breaks and they seemingly also step on the glass shards, since ingame not even glass shards remain?

Oh come on, don't try to sugarcoat it with me with arguments of "balance", just taking out empty glass jars was the quickest and easiest way to fix it, but quick and easy solutions are seldomly good solutions.

And yes, forcing players to play trader-centric to solve their problems, just because 2 of the devs like to play that way, is not good game design either.

Let's face it: This change is bad, because it was a "quick and easy solution".


Now, complaining, everyone can do that.

I want to do constructive criticism.

The Fun Pimps, very obviously, as developers are masters of their own game. They have the power to just change numbers to reach a desired balance effect, they have the power to implement new items and mechanics.

I get their argument "Water was too easy to get and as a consequence Duct Tape was way too easy to get", but they should've solved that differently.

They should bring Empty Glass Jars back, but in a changed form.

I googled the original recipe of it, it was 10 Crushed Sand and 1 piece of Clay. Yeah I get their sentiment, that it feels like a "minecraft-ish" leftover from earlier stages of development, to stand in as a water mechanic at the time. But that humans create and keep jars, recepticales, tin cans (those were a thing once too) and the like to gather water and cook it to make it actual clean, drinkable water, that is such a #1 Survival Move, it is bonkers that it is not in the game.

So instead of removing jars, they could implement several obstacles to Jar crafting or in general crafting of critical items, by approaching it from a realistic angle:
 

• Cost
  They could simply increase the cost of certain recipes.
  
  1) They could bring empty glass jars back and increase the cost.
  10 Crushed Sand, 1 Clay => 1000 Crushed Sand, 100 Clay. It could be that easy and this one would work, players would suddenly be unable to craft 500 empty jars and fill them with water to cook (that was, what that TFP dev more or less literally wrote as a motivation for the change).
  They would have to first find sand and then farm unholy amounts of sand and Clay to make jars with.  But they would be reusable like in the days of old.
  
  It would have the desired effect of reducing the amounts of water available to players in early game and the player would have the choice, the choice between using clay either to make cobblestone (very important for a Horde Base, 100 clay equals like 10 or so cobblestone blocks) or for a glass jar. And Player Choice is actual good game design.
  
  2) Glue Recipe:
  They could further increase the cost. I don't get the "Bones are the limiting factor" notion. They are not. You can find animals everywhere, you can find rotten carcasses everywhere, bones are absolutely not the limiting factor. Getting Water is the limiting factor. Still, one could increase the costs in the glue recipe to further cut down Glue production. Though I feel it is rather easy to find ready to use glue, if you just loot everything, even trash, that can give you randomly glue or duct tapes.
  
  3) Clean Water Recipe:
  You could increase the cost of Clean Water Production. If you have to cook water for a certain time to kill off all bacteria, germs etc. in it, you'd loose some to evaporation into steam in the process.
  So instead of 1 Murky Water -> 1 Clean Water the devs could change it to 2 Murky Water -> 1 Clean Water. I wouldn't go too overboard there, since this would also hit players, that try to survive in the wild without questing for the traders or even interacting with a trader at all. But if the devs would bring back the empty glass jar and these are reusable, this imho would be necessary to further ramp down Water Production this way.
  
  4) Water Filter Recipes:
  I read that suggestion on reddit, so it is not mine, but it was suggested to make Dew Collectors buildable with easy to get items, but you would also need to build water filters to put them into a dew collector so they would actually work and that they could break down after a time.
  I think there could be two tiers, an Improvised Filter, that you could craft by hand with e.g. cloth, Crushed Sand and Coal, that is less time efficient, but produces atleast slowly Clean Water.
  
  And there should be a recipe, locked behind the Workbench, to make the Water Filters we have now, that, looking at the picture, look like industrial-produced, basically perfect Water Filters, that have the same speed as now and would cost more valuable and harder to get resources like plastic, glue, coal, crushed sand and forged iron or even forged steel to be produced.
   
• Method of Crafting and how fast a player gets to crafting glasses and iron wares
  Now IRL one simply doesn't erect a forge out of simple materials and then go and start firing it up to craft e.g. forged Iron or, before the change, glass jars.
  One would need proper molding forms to pour hot, liquid material (e.g. liquified, hot sand = glass, liquid hot iron) into, , if necessary beat them into shape after cooling down to create an item and then put them into cold water to rapidly cool them down, so it solidifies.
  
  1) Forges are pretty easy to get, like all players start out with the knowledge, how to make them.
  Heck, without reading specialized books about that topic or atleast watching a lengthy YouTube Tutorial, IRL I would have no freaking clue how to produce a primitive forge. And most of us wouldn't have a clue either IRL. Why not reflect that in game?
  
  Lock forges behind a basic recipe, that you could get from the trader, like Water Filters now, either as quest reward for the Tier 1 Complete Quest to choose or to buy for 2250 dukes, like the Water Filter. That would form a further slow down in players getting the ability to craft glass jars and other iron items.
  And one should also be able to find that recipe in PoI's. There are already so many book cases in Tier 2 PoIs that you can engage with stone weaponry and spike traps, there should also be a chance to find Water Filters and a Forge Recipe there.
  
  The sense of it is to give players a choice back, if they want to play the game centered around the trader as a quest-centric game with limitless supplies or if they want to play as Explorers surviving by looting PoIs.
  And let's face it: Traders make it too easy. Traders can send you to the same PoI over and over and everytime you start the quest it magically resets the whole PoI and that can happen every single ingame day, that he sends you to a PoI you cleared before. This is an endless source of supply.
  I do think, this should be a thing, since otherwise at some point they couldn't generate quests anymore, but there should be a cooldown for that, like an ingame week and after the blood moon the trader could hand you out a new quest for a previously cleared PoI.
  
  The core argument of the devs, that it was too easy to get water doesn't make sense when traders make the whole game too easy either!
  
  2) As said, one simply doesn't create Forged Iron Bars, when he has a Forge. Without a mold to cast it into, at best he gets a puddle of hit liquid iron on the floor, that then is some artistic plate of iron, once it cools down.
  
  So there should be some kind of "mold creation" mechanic, where you have to create molds after recipes, that you can find in the world or get from the trader.
  More common recipes like for civilian items like glass jars should be rather easy to find in book cases and cheap to get from a trader, either as a random quest reward for a Tier 1 Quest or for a couple hundred dukes (e.g. 600 dukes, what you pay right now for a cooking pot).
  With the recipe in mind you could create a mold out of clay and in a molding station (new work station, that you would situate logically next to the forge) you would insert that form.
  
  The Forge then no longer would be able to produce simple, finished and ready items like nails and jars, the forge would just heat e.g. iron up and would give you liquid iron as a generic item and you would then put that liquid item into the molding station and with a mold for e.g. "Nails" you could produce Nails.
  
  And obviously, to come back to water, you could also produce glass jars there with a mold for glass jars.
  
  The molding station itself could be bought for dukes at traders, be obtained as quest rewards, rarely found in the wild as loot or dismantling broken mold stations and it also could be locked behind "Advanced Engineering" for making one by yourself.
  
  3) I like the dew collectors as automated clean water production, but it is rather easy to get them early on and then Water isn't an issue anymore either, it just is further slowed down by their slow production, which you can easily counter by, you guessed it, putting up more dew collectors.
  
  So they should be pushed into mid game, if water jars make a return, because it automatizes the whole process and you no longer would need to go to a lake to get dirty water and to cook it into clean water.
  
  So put Water Filters into the Tier 3 Complete Quest Reward instead of the Tier 1 Complete Quest Reward, make them more expensive at the trader and make them hidden behind "Daring Adventurer" rank 1 to actually be able to buy them.
  
  In return, Water Filters also should be (rarely) be able to be found in PoIs that are related to Water Production (like Water Works) or, with a lower chance, in PoIs related to Tool Production and Sales (e.g. a Working Stiff Tools store or Truck) or in Working Stiff Tools Crates.
  
  And the beauty is: The devs can directly and easily influence the spawn chance of Water Filters there just by changing numbers, so if they feel, that they're too easy to find and traders are devalued, just lower the probability to loot water filters in the wild.
  
  
  These are some suggestions, how to bring empty jars back and don't make them too easy to get and don't make water production too easy and even if not all of these suggestions would be implemented, all of them would be way better changes than just outright removing the empty jars and making humans in that universe at the same time smart enough to produce complex weapons and too dumb to produce a simple jar and force them to a player centric playstyle.

[FinkPloyd]

On 1/31/2024 at 12:01 AM, Roland said:

I got Palworld for now and have Enshrouded on my wishlist for the Summer Sale.

 

I am enjoying Enshrouded more than I did Palworld (I find Enshrouded less grindy and enjoying the different character builds).

 

I also played Pocket Pair's 'Craftopia', so Palworlds limited use of 'pals' at your base seems a bit of a downgrade.

Craftopia had much more complex and customisable automation systems.

You could fully automate planting/breeding -> harvesting -> crafting into final product.

 

Nightingale looks good, have to see how the release goes.