Concerning Magazines and Learn-By-Reading...

[Kalen]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

If it were the actual skills that were randomly assigned in progression I would be against that too. But it is simply the recipes for gear, food, medicine, armor, transportation and building blocks that are random and will cause a varied result in when you attain the recipe to craft those things. And in most cases you aren't even going without-- you are just going with an inferior version until you can find the recipe for the better version.

 

So I've done a lot of thinking about this.... and you're right.  I've said before that I kind of miss when finding (or not finding) Forge Ahead was a right of passage and had a significant impact on your early game play.

 

That said, I still don't like the magazine system and I think this stems from two points.

 

1.  I don't like how your perk choices so strongly impact what magazines you find.   Having it increase the chance for some is fine.... having it effectively decrease your chance of finding others kind of sucks.  Particularly for players like me, who play solo.

2. I don't like that magazines are found in certain types of loot, encouraging you to target things like mailboxes and book shelves.   I think it would far better if magazines could drop from any kind of loot with equal frequency so that you'd just acquire then through normal game play without even really having to think about it.

[Roland]

21 minutes ago, Kalen said:

 

So I've done a lot of thinking about this.... and you're right.  I've said before that I kind of miss when finding (or not finding) Forge Ahead was a right of passage and had a significant impact on your early game play.

 

That said, I still don't like the magazine system and I think this stems from two points.

 

1.  I don't like how your perk choices so strongly impact what magazines you find.   Having it increase the chance for some is fine.... having it effectively decrease your chance of finding others kind of sucks.  Particularly for players like me, who play solo.

2. I don't like that magazines are found in certain types of loot, encouraging you to target things like mailboxes and book shelves.   I think it would far better if magazines could drop from any kind of loot with equal frequency so that you'd just acquire then through normal game play without even really having to think about it.

 

1. I agree and I could swear that the boost was not as high as it appears to be now when I played earlier versions. I could almost swear the boost wasn't even working. I've always felt that the boost should be minimal simply to act as a safety net so that you don't not ever find the magazines you need but not so strong that you feel like your chance of getting off perk magazines is less.

 

2. This doesn't bother me so much. I never feel the need to go shopping to all the mailboxes and newspaper stands as an intentional magazine gathering activity but I do loot them as I come across them in normal game play. Everyone is going to feel the need to focus on finding magazines to exclusion of other gameplay activities to differing amounts. In the past we've had loot scattered randomly across the world in whatever container and had the complaint from many that location and theme-based loot containers is better because with the former it soon becomes apparent that it doesn't matter in the least where you explore. One place is as good as another.

[Kalen]

19 minutes ago, Roland said:

This doesn't bother me so much.

 

Yes, but I freely admit you have far more self discipline than I do.

 

Quote

In the past we've had loot scattered randomly across the world in whatever container and had the complaint from many that location and theme-based loot containers is better because with the former it soon becomes apparent that it doesn't matter in the least where you explore. One place is as good as another.

 

And I agree with that too.... definitely not asking for all loot to be scattered.  

Edited September 19, 2023 by Kalen (see edit history)

[FramFramson]

I think some of the problem might be solved by partially or completely decoupling "this gets you more magazines" from "this gets you higher skill in specific activity X".

 

I get that "putting points into the skills you focus on will also return you more educational materials for that skill" seeming like a good idea, but the implementation wasn't quite as good as the idea sounded on paper, mainly due to cases where skills are only taken for the way they affect magazine drops, and the way focusing on certain skill combinations can leave your magazine finding odds in conflict with one another.

[meganoth]

You can find the opinion of TFP about the huge perk boni to magazine drop chance here:

https://community.7daystodie.com/a21-bugs-main/not-a-bug/perk-boost-for-magazines-is-unexpectedly-huge-r605/?tab=comments#comment-9625

 

 

 

12 hours ago, OneManStanding said:

If the Pimps wanted to lengthen the early stage of the game, couldn't they just give you more to perk into...?

 

In most cases there are more than one reason and IMHO the one you mention is far from the top one for this change.

Edited September 19, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[OneManStanding]

As it stands, perks offer better performance, more magazines, parts, and ammo if applicable. Magazines only help you craft the item. This is my buddy's general reasoning for seeing them as irrelevant to one another - he's a very new player, so I gave him some runway on this.

 

If, however, perking in reduced the crafting ingredients and reduced the crafting time, as it does in cooking, maybe even boosted the average stats a little bit (durability, damage), that by itself would help reconnect perks with magazines. If me making a shotgun without the perks uses more materials, takes longer, and maybe results in lower-average stats, it would be better if the guy perked into shotguns makes the shotgun.

 

I could still collect the magazines over time and make the shotgun if I wasn't perked into it. 

[meganoth]

9 minutes ago, OneManStanding said:

f, however, perking in reduced the crafting ingredients and reduced the crafting time, as it does in cooking, maybe even boosted the average stats a little bit (durability, damage), that by itself would help reconnect perks with magazines. If me making a shotgun without the perks uses more materials, takes longer, and maybe results in lower-average stats, it would be better if the guy perked into shotguns makes the shotgun.

 

Why? Currently the crafter of a weapon can be a different person than the user.

With your proposed change it would be very inefficient to do that as the crafter would need to perk into it (for the crafting) AND the user would need to perk into it (for the direct perk boni for using a weapon).

 

 

[Roland]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

You can find the opinion of TFP about the huge perk boni to magazine drop chance here:

https://community.7daystodie.com/a21-bugs-main/not-a-bug/perk-boost-for-magazines-is-unexpectedly-huge-r605/?tab=comments#comment-9625

 

 

Yeah, I think Schwanz's answer is telling. It is important to the devs that players notice the difference even if this means the boost is too high. In the dev's minds, it seems to be better for it to be too high but players know that the boost is operating than for it to be just right (as a safety net) and players often complain and submit false bug reports that the boost isn't operating as far as they can perceive.

 

I suppose, though, that it is a value in the xmls that can be changed for those that would rather the boost be a bit less?

Edited September 19, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[binf_shinana]

スキルを取っても雑誌の出現数が増えない、と嘆いているプレイヤーの多くは複数のスキルを取得することで出現率が相互干渉を起こすということは当然理解していないと思います。（説明文には増えることしか書いてないので、それは当然のことです）
例えば、高度エンジニアリングは電気製品、トラップ、作業台、リペアツールと4種類もの雑誌を担当しているため、これを取得してしまうと銃器の雑誌取得から大きく遠ざかることになります。

 

(google translation)

I think that many players who complain that the number of magazines that appear does not increase even if they acquire skills do not understand that the appearance rate will interfere with each other by acquiring multiple skills. (The explanation only says that it will increase, so that is natural.)
For example, Advanced Engineering is responsible for electrical appliances, traps, workbenches, repair tools, and four types of magazines, so if you acquire this, you will be far removed from acquiring firearm magazines.

[BFT2020]

5 minutes ago, binf_shinana said:

(google translation)

I think that many players who complain that the number of magazines that appear does not increase even if they acquire skills do not understand that the appearance rate will interfere with each other by acquiring multiple skills. (The explanation only says that it will increase, so that is natural.)
For example, Advanced Engineering is responsible for electrical appliances, traps, workbenches, repair tools, and four types of magazines, so if you acquire this, you will be far removed from acquiring firearm magazines.

 

That is true, but only in regards to containers that pull from all magazines.  For the specialty crates, you will be pulling a much smaller batch.  For example, Shotgun Messiah is only firearm magazines so if you are perked into say Gunslinger, you have a high chance of pulling the handgun crafting magazines.

 

However, the crates themselves are not universal.  Some crates have the crafting magazines in the first group which is always a guaranteed pull while other crates have them in the second group which is a high chance of pulling from it.  And at least one crate (Mo Power) you have guarantee pulls for all but the 4th loot group.  I wonder how loot finds will change if all specialty crates where setup like the Mo Power one where you are always guaranteed 3 items in them with a possible 4th.

55 minutes ago, Roland said:

I suppose, though, that it is a value in the xmls that can be changed for those that would rather the boost be a bit less?

 

Maybe cut it in half, from the current 2 to 10 based on perk level to 1 to 5?

[Riamus]

I originally liked the magazines, but now they are just cumbersome.  I liked being able to craft tools without having to ask someone to do it.  Weapon crafting costs make crafting then not really worth it most of the time past tier 1, imo.  And finding magazines to craft higher stuff takes too long in many games just due to RNG.  I don't agree at all with the perks increasing magazine chance by so much as it just makes it that much harder to get others.

 

I miss having a mix of specialization and crafting what you want.  We used to specialize in the bigger things like vehicles and engineering stuff but make our own tools and stuff.  Now, that isn't really an option.  You either specialize in everything or you take far longer to progress.

 

And then there is the issue in single player with the perks increasing the chance to get specific magazines.  In single player, you often aren't really specializing because you need to do everything yourself.  And with the magazines, if you don't put a point into grease monkey early even though you don't really need that perk right away, you will quickly fall behind on vehicle crafting and take longer to be able to craft vehicles.  Most of your magazines are likely to come from bookshelves, mailboxes and news stands.  Not perking into vehicles means you will get far fewer vehicles magazines from those.  If you don't go out of your way to try and find pass n gas crates or other crates that have a higher chance of vehicle magazines, you will be behind by not perking into something that you normally wouldn't perk into in the first week or two.

 

In the end, the magazines, especially with the perk increasing chances, are just a slog.  It goes beyond grinding because they feel almost like a waste of time to grind instead of at least feeling useful and making the grind acceptable.

 

I would rather see no increase at all in magazine chances from perks if they don't want people thinking they aren't working because the chance is low than to have the chance be extremely high like it is now.

 

I also really miss the random chance of finding schematics early.

[FramFramson]

I think the biggest warping effect is everyone in single player having to invest somewhat heavily (during the early game) into Int, even if you're not going Int at all. Like, your real build is always a ???/Int hybrid build in singleplayer. That or you're buying a lot of fergettin' elixir.

 

Though even in Multiplayer, the Int person will still often be a hybrid as well, because not everyone wants to go junk turrets and stun batons.

[BFT2020]

5 hours ago, FramFramson said:

I think the biggest warping effect is everyone in single player having to invest somewhat heavily (during the early game) into Int, even if you're not going Int at all. Like, your real build is always a ???/Int hybrid build in singleplayer. That or you're buying a lot of fergettin' elixir.

 

Though even in Multiplayer, the Int person will still often be a hybrid as well, because not everyone wants to go junk turrets and stun batons.

 

Not everyone feels that way, I tend to invest very little in Int (I don't use the elixirs at all) unless I am specifically wanting to play a heavy Int build.  I may invest a perk point or two at the beginning but I am usually at Int 1 for most of the early / mid game.  I tend to focus more on the tree I am wanting to play that playthrough.

 

If you want a challenge, don't use elixirs and don't spend in strength / int trees if you are going a different build, like Agility.

[Roland]

6 hours ago, FramFramson said:

I think the biggest warping effect is everyone in single player having to invest somewhat heavily (during the early game) into Int, even if you're not going Int at all. Like, your real build is always a ???/Int hybrid build in singleplayer. That or you're buying a lot of fergettin' elixir.

 

Though even in Multiplayer, the Int person will still often be a hybrid as well, because not everyone wants to go junk turrets and stun batons.

I never invest much into intellect if I’m not doing an intellect playthrough. I don’t mind getting my vehicles and work stations as rewards or buying them rather than crafting them.  There’s definitely no “have to invest” requirement for intellect. There is still plenty to craft in the game if ignore intellect and spend your points elsewhere. 

[meganoth]

7 hours ago, FramFramson said:

I think the biggest warping effect is everyone in single player having to invest somewhat heavily (during the early game) into Int, even if you're not going Int at all. Like, your real build is always a ???/Int hybrid build in singleplayer. That or you're buying a lot of fergettin' elixir.

 

Though even in Multiplayer, the Int person will still often be a hybrid as well, because not everyone wants to go junk turrets and stun batons.

 

There is always the trader as an alternative to crafting the stuff yourself (especially for workstations and vehicles). And if you don't spread your points too much a single point into say vehicles may even be enough to get you vehicles in acceptable time (this would have to be tested though). Which I would not call hybrid.

 

 

1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:

 

Not everyone feels that way, I tend to invest very little in Int (I don't use the elixirs at all) unless I am specifically wanting to play a heavy Int build.  I may invest a perk point or two at the beginning but I am usually at Int 1 for most of the early / mid game.  I tend to focus more on the tree I am wanting to play that playthrough.

 

If you want a challenge, don't use elixirs and don't spend in strength / int trees if you are going a different build, like Agility.

 

Using your mod or vanillla?

 

Not getting a vehicle or waiting a long time for it is less about challenge and more about missing comfort.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

Not getting a vehicle or waiting a long time for it is less about challenge and more about missing comfort.

Although true, I personally don't enjoy spending lots of time running around or driving slowly around between places.  Especially now with the changes to vehicle damage because unless I want to constantly repair my vehicle, I can't have fun running down zombies and taking crazy paths through the air and over stuff like I used to.  The little bit of fun I used to have driving is gone now so it's just wasted time where I don't feel like I'm playing the game.  Fast travel will help a little but that will just get you between towns.  You'll still have a lot of running or driving to do.  For me, I almost am at the point where I want to just give myself a motorcycle with supercharger on day 1 just to avoid it.  The game already slowed down a lot in A21.  I am not one who really enjoys early game, so the changes just make the game less enjoyable for me and I feel like if I just give myself everything to get a fast start, then the game isn't worth playing.  I'm kind of at the edge right now where I want to play and don't want to play.  I'm hoping there are not any more changes that push me towards not wanting to play.

[Adam the Waster]

I think the system is good! For single player 

 

 

With more people.  You have to ether just let the host read all of them.  Or fight over them. I can't imagine what servers are like.  People would still be stuck in the store age. Cuz you need alot in order to reach teir 5 

 

*alpha 22 dev diary and overlord armor ;)*

[BFT2020]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

Using your mod or vanillla?

 

Not getting a vehicle or waiting a long time for it is less about challenge and more about missing comfort.

 

Both.  I find that as long as I reach a bicycle, I am fine if it takes me awhile to get motorized transportation.  And since bicycle only takes 5 magazines to unlock, it doesn't take a long time for me to gather those magazines, even in my mod where I removed trader rewards.

[FramFramson]

32 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

 

Both.  I find that as long as I reach a bicycle, I am fine if it takes me awhile to get motorized transportation.  And since bicycle only takes 5 magazines to unlock, it doesn't take a long time for me to gather those magazines, even in my mod where I removed trader rewards.

 

You don't even need to build one in most cases. The T1 trader quest series pretty much always guarantees one now.

 

As for leaving off Int, I agree that's a perfectly viable strat and I myself have bought vehicles before crafting them many times, but there are a few significant Int-based QoL upgrades which are hard to live without like,

 

- Crafting stations/Crucible if the Traders won't cough one up

- Reducing vehicle repair costs

- Reducing forge costs

 

That last one is especially tricky because investing in Engineering has the known problem where it LOWERS your chance of getting Forge Ahead books as opposed to just taking Lockpicking.

 

You can play without those, but crafting stations and forge costs can be pretty huge.

 

Man, I just had a thought... you know what might address the biggest issue there? A small chance (1 in 20? 1 in 50?) to find workstation schematics in broken versions of said workstation. So a broken Chemistry Station would have a chance of giving you a Chemistry Station Schematic.

 

I feel like that makes way more sense than every cement mixer having a Forge Ahead magazine.

[Roland]

4 hours ago, Riamus said:

Although true, I personally don't enjoy spending lots of time running around or driving slowly around between places.  Especially now with the changes to vehicle damage because unless I want to constantly repair my vehicle, I can't have fun running down zombies and taking crazy paths through the air and over stuff like I used to.  The little bit of fun I used to have driving is gone now so it's just wasted time where I don't feel like I'm playing the game.  Fast travel will help a little but that will just get you between towns.  You'll still have a lot of running or driving to do.  For me, I almost am at the point where I want to just give myself a motorcycle with supercharger on day 1 just to avoid it.  The game already slowed down a lot in A21.  I am not one who really enjoys early game, so the changes just make the game less enjoyable for me and I feel like if I just give myself everything to get a fast start, then the game isn't worth playing.  I'm kind of at the edge right now where I want to play and don't want to play.  I'm hoping there are not any more changes that push me towards not wanting to play.

 

I find this a bit over dramatic, sorry. The cost to make 20 or so repair kits is negligible. There is no reason you can't have that "little bit of fun you used to have". It just isn't endlessly free to do now but the actual cost to do it is also super low. In addition the visual and effective reward for running over zombies is way better now than it was which adds to the fun.

 

I get the disappointment of having to pay for something that used to be free but let's be honest here, you can plow through a crowd of zombies spraying gore and gaining xp and the only cost is a few repair kits to get back up to 100% on your vehicle health.

[Javabean867]

You know what would fix this real easy???  A mod that turns all found crafting mags into 'crafting notes'.  Then with the right perks allows you to turn those crafting notes into the crafting mags that you want to level up.   Or the perk level would limit how far up the crafting tree you can go with reading your crafting mags. 

[Riamus]

51 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

I find this a bit over dramatic, sorry. The cost to make 20 or so repair kits is negligible. There is no reason you can't have that "little bit of fun you used to have". It just isn't endlessly free to do now but the actual cost to do it is also super low. In addition the visual and effective reward for running over zombies is way better now than it was which adds to the fun.

 

I get the disappointment of having to pay for something that used to be free but let's be honest here, you can plow through a crowd of zombies spraying gore and gaining xp and the only cost is a few repair kits to get back up to 100% on your vehicle health.

Two points.  It is less about cost and more about how often you need to do it if you want to just drive crazy.  Driving isn't exactly a fun thing to do if you are driving from point A to point B.  And neither is stopping every five or ten minutes for repairs if you want to drive crazy and have fun running into stuff.  If the time between repairs was higher but the cost was scaled to match, it wouldn't be an issue for me.  Make it cost 20x what it does now but make it take 20x the time to degrade and I'd be fine with it.  You may think this opinion is dramatic but it is still my opinion and I'm not the only one who does not like the change.

 

Second, whether or not the new changes to graphics when running over zombies is an improvement is subjective.  I personally think the blood mist looks fake.  And I much preferred seeing zombies ragdoll through the air and even end up laying across the hood of my 4x4 for a while as I was driving along or bears rolling over the top of me rather than just dropping to the ground in a red mist.  So I think the enjoyment of running them down decreased significantly in A21 even ignoring damage changes.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Roland]

25 minutes ago, Riamus said:

You may think this opinion is dramatic but it is still my opinion and I'm not the only one who does not like the change.

 

It's not your opinion that the change sucks that is dramatic. It was your wording that came across a bit over the top. Of course it's still your opinion even if I think you were laying it on a bit thick and sure there are others besides you that don't like the change. I'd be perfectly happy if they make it take longer for your vehicle to degrade but personally I don't think it degrades that quickly anyway from my own experience. Perhaps you and others who are describing the frequency of which you have to make repairs are understating what you actually mean by "crazy driving". 

 

<shrug>

 

As far as ragdolling vs red mist I like both. I'd like to see both for variety. 

 

50 minutes ago, Javabean867 said:

You know what would fix this real easy???  A mod that turns all found crafting mags into 'crafting notes'.  Then with the right perks allows you to turn those crafting notes into the crafting mags that you want to level up.   Or the perk level would limit how far up the crafting tree you can go with reading your crafting mags. 

 

I wouldn't mind an additional "crafting notes" item being added to the current system but I wouldn't want what you described as a replacement. Your crafting notes are just way too abstract and generic. I like that a kitchen recipe book specifically teaches cooking recipes and a trade magazine on archery reveals recipes for crafting bows etc. One "crafting notes" to rule all the variety of crafting recipes would be too simplistic for me.

 

Even our generic skillpoints CAN be traced back to doing specific activities that can explain why you can spend points in a particular skill and get better at it. Sure, it is also abstract but there is at least a bit of a connection there and depending on how you play, the connection can feel quite strong and causal.

 

So if every once in awhile these crafting notes could drop and you could craft them into a magazine of your choosing that would be fine by me but only as a support to the current system and not as an overhaul of it.

[meganoth]

55 minutes ago, Riamus said:

Two points.  It is less about cost and more about how often you need to do it if you want to just drive crazy.  Driving isn't exactly a fun thing to do if you are driving from point A to point B.  And neither is stopping every five or ten minutes for repairs if you want to drive crazy and have fun running into stuff.  If the time between repairs was higher but the cost was scaled to match, it wouldn't be an issue for me.  Make it cost 20x what it does now but make it take 20x the time to degrade and I'd be fine with it.  You may think this opinion is dramatic but it is still my opinion and I'm not the only one who does not like the change.

 

Second, whether or not the new changes to graphics when running over zombies is an improvement is subjective.  I personally think the blood mist looks fake.  And I much preferred seeing zombies ragdoll through the air and even end up laying across the hood of my 4x4 for a while as I was driving along or bears rolling over the top of me rather than just dropping to the ground in a red mist.  So I think the enjoyment of running them down decreased significantly in A21 even ignoring damage changes.

 

Fully agree with point two.

 

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

It's not your opinion that the change sucks that is dramatic. It was your wording that came across a bit over the top. Of course it's still your opinion even if I think you were laying it on a bit thick and sure there are others besides you that don't like the change. I'd be perfectly happy if they make it take longer for your vehicle to degrade but personally I don't think it degrades that quickly anyway from my own experience. Perhaps you and others who are describing the frequency of which you have to make repairs are understating what you actually mean by "crazy driving". 

 

<shrug>

 

As far as ragdolling vs red mist I like both. I'd like to see both for variety. 

Well, let's just look at some specifics then.  Driving over a curb that is almost flat with the ground can cause 1% or more damage even on a minibike without supercharger or even a bicycle.  That alone is crazy even though it is a small amount.  Damage without a supercharger takes up to at least 20%.  With a supercharger, a single hit can be even higher.  This means that even if you are driving normally but at fill speed (with shift) and a supercharger, if something like an ore node comes out of nowhere because there is a delay in loading for some reason, you can take more than a quarter of your vehicle durability.  I've had minor changes in terrain cause me to take damage even when you can't really see that there even is a difference unless you are standing still.  If you drive under a tree, which is often required if offroading through a town, it is common to find a rock or other item hidden under it or just past it.  And these aren't even considering doing any crazy driving unless you count driving fast or driving offroad to be crazy.  If I want to run through something, I'll take significant damage from just one hit.  If you do this 4 times, you are probably at 0% durability without repairs.  That means regular repairs if you don't want to drive slowly everywhere.  Can you avoid it and drive as carefully as in real life?  Of course.  But I don't play a zombie game for realism.

 

I would be very interested in seeing the numbers of people who used 4x4s in A20 compared to in A21.  I would be very surprised if the number hasn't decreased significantly (probably by at least half) due to the amount of repairs it needs because of its width and the increased damage.  And this doesn't even get into the fact that damage is a percent of max durability rather than a set damage based on speed.  So a 4x4 with the extra durability takes much more actual damage for the exact same hit and speed as any other vehicle.  And repair kits aren't percent based so you have to do more repairs for a vehicle with greater durability than for one with less for the same amount of hits at the same speed.  That alone just doesn't make sense.

 

We are rather off topic now, so probably should get back to the magazines.  😁

Edited September 21, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)