Thoughts on explosives

[Old Crow]

They feel kind of.. useless. At least at higher game stages. They don't seem to do much damage, but rather just toss and separate groups of zombies. Granted, ferals and irradiated zombies are damage sponges but, I don't know. explosives just feel kind of underwhelming. Would it be worth perking into demolitions?

[pApA^LeGBa]

Grenades saved me a few times alerady doing T5´s and T6 quests with those nasty trap rooms that you drop into and can´t get out quickly anymore.

 

And yes demolition perk does give you quite a boost in damage. There is also the AtomJunkie candy. It gives you another 50% bonus damage for explosives. A grenade does 341 damage with an area effect of 5 blocks radius. With demolition expert maxed out that´s 512 damage. With the Atomjunkies that´s 768 damage.

 

Compare that to any gun wich can´t damage a whole group of zombies within that 5 block radius.

 

It´s a no brainer for me personally tbh as i am going heavily into perception anyways in my SP using the spear. Great crowd control aswell with the knock back, you can set up "traps" by dropping them at doors without pulling the pin and throwing another one there when they pass that door. ALso 100% stun chance with only 2 points in the skill.

Edited July 10, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[NekoPawtato]

I have seen people suggest grenades/pipe bombs for when zombies are hiding behind counters/tables where you can't get line of sight/sneak attacks

I also like to use them during blood moons when the zombies are piled up by the door, especially explosive arrows.

Late game I perk into explosives and save my rocket launchers for demolishers as they will take care of them no problem. I also carry it around for final boss rooms of T5 buildings as it's great for crowds of zombies.

[doughphunghus]

I like to carry a small amount of mines with me for use in pois. They work nicely placed in front of doors and other places zeds run through. Usually i place one after I've closed a door (as they beat on it) if i feel im up against too many. Ive used exploding barrels the same way (not sure id you can still pick them up, or if they still explode in a21)

 

but during horde nights i love using pipe bombs, even though grenades are more accurate/less rolly aroundy.

[Old Crow]

23 minutes ago, doughphunghus said:

I like to carry a small amount of mines with me for use in pois. They work nicely placed in front of doors and other places zeds run through. Usually i place one after I've closed a door (as they beat on it) if i feel im up against too many. Ive used exploding barrels the same way (not sure id you can still pick them up, or if they still explode in a21)

 

but during horde nights i love using pipe bombs, even though grenades are more accurate/less rolly aroundy.

 

You can't pick up the gasoline barrels, but they most definitely still explode when shot!

[bloodmoth13]

I'm sure they are useful

I just don't like them in perception, I think they would be perfect for intellect who seem to favour base building. Explosives are great for defending a swarmed base but are a bit more risky in regular POIs where they can wake up too much.

 

Making traps and kill boxes suits the idea of intellect.

 

 

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, bloodmoth13 said:

I'm sure they are useful

I just don't like them in perception, I think they would be perfect for intellect who seem to favour base building. Explosives are great for defending a swarmed base but are a bit more risky in regular POIs where they can wake up too much.

 

Making traps and kill boxes suits the idea of intellect.

 

 

 

Sure, but traps and explosives can be seen as different ways of doing horde base. As an explosive expert I build either a spacious room with multiple heavy doors (so they last longer) to me, so zombies mass up fast. Or a pit where I try to drop them into (with the help of a pusher turret for example). While as INT player I have electrictal traps that slow them down and kill them, so a long narrow high pathway is ideal. In this case pusher turrets are not for "collecting" the zombies, instead they are just thrown off so they have to reenter the parcour and get damaged by traps a second time.

 

Especially as a single player you do base building, whether you are INT or something else. And even in a group the people who like to build bases may want to play different attributes every new playthrough, so a design that pushes the builder to INT may not be ideal.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Scyris]

13 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Sure, but traps and explosives can be seen as different ways of doing horde base. As an explosive expert I build either a spacious room with multiple heavy doors (so they last longer) to me, so zombies mass up fast. Or a pit where I try to drop them into (with the help of a pusher turret for example). While as INT player I have electrictal traps that slow them down and kill them, so a long narrow high pathway is ideal. In this case pusher turrets are not for "collecting" the zombies, instead they are just thrown off so they have to reenter the parcour and get damaged by traps a second time.

 

Especially as a single player you do base building, whether you are INT or something else. And even in a group the people who like to build bases may want to play different attributes every new playthrough, so a design that pushes the builder to INT may not be ideal.

 

 

 

See this is the problem with the stat system currently, there are just optimal stats for things and you cannot do anything to change that, like for a miner, your going to want to go str, as miner 69'er and motherload are basically vital. I dispise the stat system with a passion its poorly thought out and often doesn't make any sense. At least in a21 crafting quality is no longer locked to stats, even with 1 in a stat you CAN eventually max a magazine series out and get all recipies, it'll just take longer is all.

 

You really notice the stat systems problems when playing single player, since you need to do everything yourself, you need to have various stats at various levels to be optimal, so your basically forced into the same builds to be efficient. Its less of an issue in a20 in MP since you could have people specilize, but this kinda went out the window a bit in a21 with craft quality and most recipes being magazine unlocks. I'd kill for a gas can schematic again, because I've never gotten the vehicle skill high enough to make a minibike ever. The perk that influences it, just is not worth investing into at all, its a waste of perk points, whoopie do cheaper costs to make the parts.. they aren't expensive in the first place anyway. Well maybe the 4x4 chassis is a bit expensive but thats about it.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Scyris (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Scyris said:

 

See this is the problem with the stat system currently, there are just optimal stats for things and you cannot do anything to change that, like for a miner, your going to want to go str, as miner 69'er and motherload are basically vital. I dispise the stat system with a passion its poorly thought out and often doesn't make any sense. At least in a21 crafting quality is no longer locked to stats, even with 1 in a stat you CAN eventually max a magazine series out and get all recipies, it'll just take longer is all.

 

You really notice the stat systems problems when playing single player, since you need to do everything yourself, you need to have various stats at various levels to be optimal, so your basically forced into the same builds to be efficient. Its less of an issue in a20 in MP since you could have people specilize, but this kinda went out the window a bit in a21 with craft quality and most recipes being magazine unlocks. I'd kill for a gas can schematic again, because I've never gotten the vehicle skill high enough to make a minibike ever. The perk that influences it, just is not worth investing into at all, its a waste of perk points, whoopie do cheaper costs to make the parts.. they aren't expensive in the first place anyway. Well maybe the 4x4 chassis is a bit expensive but thats about it.

 

I actually agree with you about miner/motherload because the difference between 1 point in them and max perked out may be too much. But that seems a balancing issue. The game is balanced for a player who does everything but some things not well and others much better. And it is ok that he is not the best in everything. I can play the game with max mining and I will use that to for example to build bigger than usual. But I can play the game with no mining skil as well and just use whatever I am good at, for example explosives in a necessarily smaller base. I don't need to be "optimal" as a miner to mine (or more generally to get basic resources any way I can)

 

I play SP at the moment and as AGI player i am bad at ALL resource gathering skills. Still I wrench sometimes for parts. I need more time per car, but I will still get parts, motors and batteries just like the master wrencher. I will not mine much and try to get most materials through buying or shoveling resource blocks in POIs. I am a bad farmer at LotL1 but my farm still supports me. I don't have much resources for building but with the help of a POI as foundation I still build nice horde bases. I just don't build a palace as home base, I build functional, not for looks.

 

Now YOU, specifically, are someone who seems to be a "miner" or a builder player, i.e. mining or building for you seems more important than the rest of the game, someone who might have switched over from minecraft. Nothing wrong with that, but you play the game for a different reason than probably most players and TFP themselves. If you are only happy if you are mining master then for example you could install a mod that just makes max miner69/motherload reachable without any points in STR. I am very very sure that TFP will not give what you want for vanilla, no matter how often or long you critisize that same issue, because I think that is exactly how they want it, as an incentive to play differently each time.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Old Crow]

I kind of feel like Motherlode fits better in Perception (hear me out) because I imagine it as you can perceive where to strike to get more materials from mining. I do get though that would spread things out a bit much - it would suck to "have to" go into two separate trees just to get the most out of mining.

[warmer]

8 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

I kind of feel like Motherlode fits better in Perception (hear me out) because I imagine it as you can perceive where to strike to get more materials from mining. I do get though that would spread things out a bit much - it would suck to "have to" go into two separate trees just to get the most out of mining.

There are a few skills like that, and I can only assume they were spread out to make each core stat have even skill coverage for balance.

[Scyris]

10 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I actually agree with you about miner/motherload because the difference between 1 point in them and max perked out may be too much. But that seems a balancing issue. The game is balanced for a player who does everything but some things not well and others much better. And it is ok that he is not the best in everything. I can play the game with max mining and I will use that to for example to build bigger than usual. But I can play the game with no mining skil as well and just use whatever I am good at, for example explosives in a necessarily smaller base. I don't need to be "optimal" as a miner to mine (or more generally to get basic resources any way I can)

 

I play SP at the moment and as AGI player i am bad at ALL resource gathering skills. Still I wrench sometimes for parts. I need more time per car, but I will still get parts, motors and batteries just like the master wrencher. I will not mine much and try to get most materials through buying or shoveling resource blocks in POIs. I am a bad farmer at LotL1 but my farm still supports me. I don't have much resources for building but with the help of a POI as foundation I still build nice horde bases. I just don't build a palace as home base, I build functional, not for looks.

 

Now YOU, specifically, are someone who seems to be a "miner" or a builder player, i.e. mining or building for you seems more important than the rest of the game, someone who might have switched over from minecraft. Nothing wrong with that, but you play the game for a different reason than probably most players and TFP themselves. If you are only happy if you are mining master then for example you could install a mod that just makes max miner69/motherload reachable without any points in STR. I am very very sure that TFP will not give what you want for vanilla, no matter how often or long you critisize that same issue, because I think that is exactly how they want it, as an incentive to play differently each time.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually i've never played mine craft other than one time I tried it and didn't really care for it. As for building I don't really do that either, My home base is basically a hut on stilts, that usually stays wood as there is no reason to upgrade it. I do build a little horde base eventually in vanilla, but not till like week 3+ as its just not needed before then. I just like high block damage so I can break into things faster, and higher returns on mining to stack with the block damage so I need to mine less rl time wise. Honestly though I've not gotten past day 12 or so in A21 as usually by day 8 or 9 I am so damn overpowered that the game is a cakewalk and it gets boring fast. I've tried playing on insane, only diff for me is things are more tanky, still pretty easy due to the slow speed stuff scales. I mean day 14 in vanilla and even in a t4 poi you might have 1 feral in the entire poi if that. Meanwhile everything else dies in 2 normal melee attack headshots. Many mods have the scaling set so by day 8-10 most sleepers in poi's are usually at least ferals it makes it exciting, Vanilla just scales too slow that it gets boring, not to mention its way to easy to get best in slot stuff from trader quests. T3 quests can give t4-5 steel tools and weapons. Kinda makes the magazine system pointless tbh. A way to fix this might be to add some bonus for collecting the magazines, so they are ALWAYS worth having. maybe +damage and reload speed on guns, +damage - stam use on tools/melee just something to make it worth it. Mind you it could be worse, at least it didn't cost perk points for those recipes like in a20, use to annoy me when I'd perk into something only to then find the schematic soon after, feels like a slap in the face when that happens.

[Old Crow]

5 hours ago, warmer said:

There are a few skills like that, and I can only assume they were spread out to make each core stat have even skill coverage for balance.

 

Yeah, that's what I'm figuring too. And it makes sense to keep related perks together.

[Catt]

I almost exclusively use pipe bombs to handle horde night (doesn't work with all horde night bases of course) and I'll never go back. Easy to craft, and very effective. Can throw multiples to take care of stronger zeds. 

 

One thing they seem bad at is handling demo men (side note, how do you guys like to handle them?! Pipe bombs used to not set their timer off but they appear to in a21. Maybe I should just throw 10 before the last one is thrown lit lol).

 

All this is on insane difficulty.