Poll - Which progression system did you prefer?

[AtomicUs5000]

3 minutes ago, Riamus said:

This, I think, would give a better outcome so you aren't missing out on magazines you don't perk into because of your perked magazines replacing everything else.

 
Agreed.
 

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

At the moment I expect TFP to release a patch with more balance fixes in the near future, i.e. it is their move now. Whatever it is, it will change things somewhat, maybe solve some problems, maybe create new 😉.

No doubt. 
I do hope that in the end whatever becomes the final version of all of this accounts for exactly what you said in that post: "there are many and to only be selected because you want the loot bonus should not be the only reason to select a perk." I do play MP, but its very rare in comparison to solo, so I don't really have much emotion tied into the issues that this might have brought to the group dynamic. As a solo player though, I tend to try to become a jack of all trades (or as many I can) even if it means being a master of none. So, if the chosen system starts to push me too much into a master of a single trade, I'm going to have big problems with it.

[CapnCookie]

1 hour ago, Riamus said:

I assume you're Cookie on there?  What you posted adds a third option that is almost the same as the first in my post.  Instead of a chance to replace an existing magazine directly, you are increasing the number of chances and total chances for each loot.  This also will remove a magazine you would have gotten if the bonus takes effect and so has the same effect as what I mentioned.

 

I'll point out that your math is a bit off in the 200%, 400%, 600% that you were mentioning.  That's not quite correct.  Your number of chances in the pool is increased but so is your total pool size.  So 6/10 vs 1/5 is 6x the chances but because the pool also increases, you are only increasing by 300% for probability, which bears out in your results... 153 is roughly 3x 50.

 

This example does seem to suggest replacing what you would have gotten and therefore reducing chances of getting magazines you aren't perked into.  If that really is the case, then that's a bad thing.  The bonus should be a chance of getting 1 extra magazine of something you are perked into.  Example:  I loot a container and get 3 magazines.  If I had no perk bonus or a lot of perk bonuses, I'd always get those same 3 magazines from that same roll of the dice.  But if I do have perk bonuses, then it will roll a separate time and determine if I get one extra magazine from those perks.  In other words, that second roll would be a separate loot table - X% chance per loot level per perk bonus, so let's say I have 1 bonus for cooking and 3 bonus for forge ahead.  This new roll will have 3 chances of forge ahead, 1 of cooking, and X of nothing.  If it's 2% per perk point, then you'd have 6% of forge ahead, 2% of cooking, and 92% of nothing.  If you succeed in this roll, then you get that magazine in addition to the original 3 you would have gotten without a perk bonus.  This, I think, would give a better outcome so you aren't missing out on magazines you don't perk into because of your perked magazines replacing everything else.

I want to reply to the fullness of your comment, so I will reply according to the paragraphs you have. 

1) You are correct in that it does not have the potential to replace existing magazines within the loot group found within the xml. All it does is add a percentage modifier to the already existing loot probabilities. If each magazine had a "high" probability (meaning a value of 0.75, indicated at the top of the loot xml), then that means 5 magazines have a 0.75/3.75 chance, or 1/5. Adding a percentage modifier to that doesn't numerically decrease the direct probability of the other magazines, as they're still going to be at a rate of 0.75 each. That number is now just lower compared to the probability of the other magazine that you've invested perk points into for a perc increase.

2) You are also correct in that my math is a little off, just not in the way you think. After examining it, I forgot that the operation used in the progression xml is perc_added, meaning it's adding 200% per level, not changing it TO that percentage per level. So for my example specifically (crates with 5 magazines, all with an equal probability), the chance for bows would have gone from 1/5 at no points, 3/7 for 1 point, 5/9 at 2 points, 7/11 for 3 points, 9/13 for 4 points, and 11/15 for 5 points. The skill isn't dictating how many more more books you'll obtain, it's simply adding a percentage modifier to your chance at finding them within a given loot pool. Just because I have 3 points and an added 600% modifier to that mag on the probability table doesn't necessarily mean I'll find 6x of that book compared to when I was at 0 points. That would mean I would've needed to find 300 books in only 250 crates, but each crate could only produce 1 book in my example. Does that make sense?

3) It certainly adds trouble for loot containers that contain multiple magazines that are connected to skills you're perked into. In my example, if I had 2 points in both archery AND blades (a 400% bonus to each probability), then the chances for rolling either of those is 5/13. Then the others 3 books only have a 1/13 chance. So out of 250 crates I would have gotten roughly 96 bow mags, 96 blade mags, and then only 19-20 each of the other 3 mags. Even though the added probability bonus for the archery and blades is 400%, you'll still only yield less than double of each from if you'd looted them with no points in either associated skill. If they were to implement your solution, then they would need to add a dedicated loot group containing the magazines to every loot container in the game within the loot xml. It would start at 0% for all, and then under the progression of each skill, they would need to add a SEPARATE bonus that somehow only tags that specific loot group. I'm not sure if that would be possible, but then again I really only know how to read the xml and edit what's already there. I can't add to it. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by CapnCookie (see edit history)

[Riamus]

32 minutes ago, CapnCookie said:

I want to reply to the fullness of your comment, so I will reply according to the paragraphs you have. 

1) You are correct in that it does not have the potential to replace existing magazines within the loot group found within the xml. All it does is add a percentage modifier to the already existing loot probabilities. If each magazine had a "high" probability (meaning a value of 0.75, indicated at the top of the loot xml), then that means 5 magazines have a 0.75/3.75 chance, or 1/5. Adding a percentage modifier to that doesn't numerically decrease the direct probability of the other magazines, as they're still going to be at a rate of 0.75 each. That number is now just lower compared to the probability of the other magazine that you've invested perk points into for a perc increase.

2) You are also correct in that my math is a little off, just not in the way you think. After examining it, I forgot that the operation used in the progression xml is perc_added, meaning it's adding 200% per level, not changing it TO that percentage per level. So for my example specifically (crates with 5 magazines, all with an equal probability), the chance for bows would have gone from 1/5 at no points, 3/7 for 1 point, 5/9 at 2 points, 7/11 for 3 points, 9/13 for 4 points, and 11/15 for 5 points. The skill isn't dictating how many more more books you'll obtain, it's simply adding a percentage modifier to your chance at finding them within a given loot pool. Just because I have 3 points and an added 600% modifier to that mag on the probability table doesn't necessarily mean I'll find 6x of that book compared to when I was at 0 points. That would mean I would've needed to find 300 books in only 250 crates, but each crate could only produce 1 book in my example. Does that make sense?

3) It certainly adds trouble for loot containers that contain multiple magazines that are connected to skills you're perked into. In my example, if I had 2 points in both archery AND blades (a 400% bonus to each probability), then the chances for rolling either of those is 5/13. Then the others 3 books only have a 1/13 chance. So out of 250 crates I would have gotten roughly 96 bow mags, 96 blade mags, and then only 19-20 each of the other 3 mags. Even though the added probability bonus for the archery and blades is 400%, you'll still only yield less than double of each from if you'd looted them with no points in either associated skill. If they were to implement your solution, then they would need to add a dedicated loot group containing the magazines to every loot container in the game within the loot xml. It would start at 0% for all, and then under the progression of each skill, they would need to add a SEPARATE bonus that somehow only tags that specific loot group. I'm not sure if that would be possible, but then again I really only know how to read the xml and edit what's already there. I can't add to it. 

I have to be brief as I'm on a phone right now and it's hard to type much this way....

 

I think you missed what I meant about chance versus probability.  Even with your updated numbers, let's look at 1/5 versus 3/7 for adding one point.  You tripled your chance - from 1 to 3.  You now have 3 chances out of the loot pool to obtain that magazine.  Your probability went from 1/5 (20%) to 3/7 (about 43%), which is just over double.  I hope that makes sense.  I'll point out that I'm using chance here partially wrong myself for this example.  Chance is really probability as well.  I'm really talking about number of chances.  If the pool was very high, like in a lottery, then you could basically double your probability of winning by doubling the tickets you buy because it won't change to size of the loot pool significantly.  Even so, you are really getting something like 1.9999998x increase by buying twice as many tickets.  But with small numbers, it is a big difference.  This assumes the lottery has all unique entries and only one winner.  I just chose the lottery to give an idea of a large pool.

 

As far as my thought on the bonus being in addition to normal loot instead of replacing normal loot, I think this can be done without any modification of loot tables.  Example: if the loot table has only 3 different magazines in it, the bonus will take those 3 into a temporary table and use your perks to determine how much chance to roll for each of them.  If the magazines were forge ahead, cooking, and farming and you perked 3 points into forge ahead, 1 into cooking and 0 into farming and if the bonus for each perk point was 2%, you would then roll with the following chances: 6% forge ahead, 2% cooking, 0% farming, 92% nothing.  No change needed for the loot table and a pretty easy calculation.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[CapnCookie]

4 minutes ago, Riamus said:

I have to be brief as I'm on a phone right now and it's hard to type much this way....

 

I think you missed what I meant about chance versus probability.  Even with your updated numbers, let's look at 1/5 versus 3/7 for adding one point.  You tripled your chance - from 1 to 3.  You now have 3 chances out of the loot pool to obtain that magazine.  Your probability went from 1/5 (20%) to 3/7 (about 43%), which is just over double.  I hope that makes sense.  I'll point out that I'm using chance here partially wrong myself for this example.  Chance is really probability as well.  I'm really talking about number of chances.  

 

As far as my thought on the bonus being in addition to normal loot instead of replacing normal loot, I think this can be done without any modification of loot tables.  Example: if the loot table has only 3 different magazines in it, the bonus will take those 3 into a temporary table and use your perks to determine how much chance to roll for each of them.  If the magazines were forge ahead, cooking, and farming and you perked 3 points into forge ahead, 1 into cooking and 0 into farming and if the bonus for each perk point was 2%, you would then roll with the following chances: 6% forge ahead, 2% cooking, 0% farming, 92% nothing.  No change needed for the loot table and a pretty easy calculation.

1) Ah, I think I did miss that. Yes, the chance is increased, but the overall probability within the scope of a given loot table is determined by how many other items are within that loot table and their numerical chance values. The two are related within this context, but the differentiation is in added percentage vs. overall probability. 

2) The problem I'm seeing is that what you're calling for requires a dynamic table entry determined by what perks you've invested in and what magazines are available within the container. The XML's are static, though. The lines written within them can't change unless they're rewritten manually, even if they're affected by outside sources like the passive effects in the progression xml. So every single loot table containing magazines would need to redirect to dedicated loot group containing the related magazines, and that specific loot group would need to somehow pull the passive effect listed in the progression xml (add 2% percentage bonus per level in your example) without it interfering with the base values of the normal loot groups containing magazines. Again, I'm not sure if that's possible. 

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, CapnCookie said:

1) Ah, I think I did miss that. Yes, the chance is increased, but the overall probability within the scope of a given loot table is determined by how many other items are within that loot table and their numerical chance values. The two are related within this context, but the differentiation is in added percentage vs. overall probability. 

2) The problem I'm seeing is that what you're calling for requires a dynamic table entry determined by what perks you've invested in and what magazines are available within the container. The XML's are static, though. The lines written within them can't change unless they're rewritten manually, even if they're affected by outside sources like the passive effects in the progression xml. So every single loot table containing magazines would need to redirect to dedicated loot group containing the related magazines, and that specific loot group would need to somehow pull the passive effect listed in the progression xml (add 2% percentage bonus per level in your example) without it interfering with the base values of the normal loot groups containing magazines. Again, I'm not sure if that's possible. 

2) It is just a temporary table created in memory at the time it is needed and released after it is used.  It is actually easy to create such a table in a programming language.  Not something you could do in as a mod that doesn't incorporate C#, I don't think.  But easy to accomplish from the dev side.  Nothing at all has to be done to the XML other than read it.

[CapnCookie]

6 minutes ago, Riamus said:

2) It is just a temporary table created in memory at the time it is needed and released after it is used.  It is actually easy to create such a table in a programming language.  Not something you could do in as a mod that doesn't incorporate C#, I don't think.  But easy to accomplish from the dev side.  Nothing at all has to be done to the XML other than read it.

Ah, see this is where ya lose me lol. I'm very much not versed in coding. Hell I only began reading into the XML's this last week to look at the funky stuff going on with the loot tables. So this is where you'd be much more knowledgeable than I would be in how to make a certain interaction occur.

[Evil_Geoff]

Personally, while I voted for "Learn by Doing", ideally I think a combination of Learn by Doing and Learn by Reading would be the more "realistic" way of increasing skills.

You make things, you do things, you learn from that experience.  You read books or magazines with "How to..." tips gives you more knowledge and things to try.

I slaughtered a bunch of zombies!  Now I know how to make cars!  *NOT*!

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Evil_Geoff
Spelling correction (see edit history)

[Kazgrel]

Irony is I could see a fusion of LBD and the current LBR being more or less what Darkness Falls had (back when I last played it during A19).  Will be curious to see how Khaine handles it when DF becomes A21 compatible.

Seeing that I didn't play the game until A17 (ie after LBD was removed from vanilla), I'd have to say I like the current LBR system over A17-20's learning via perks ie I killed a bunch of zeds and now I'm smart enough to build a truck.

[Renathras]

Good post.

For my part, been playing for a long time (since 2014 or so? Alpha 8-10, somewhere in there), but pretty casually with friends. I'm not a hardcore streamer, I don't do "challenges", I don't make massive kill factories, I don't have every POI memorized, I don't speedrun, I haven't mathed the optimal way to do everything, etc.

But for a casual player, I've also been around long enough I HAVE seen all the iterations.

Here are my issues:

1) RNG is terrible and there's no RNG protection in the current system.

2) Learn by Doing is far more intuitive.

3) A hybrid system can easily be developed that does both (suggestion below).

4) It STILL didn't fix the issue of some skill trees being "must have" while others are not, and some builds not having beneficial stuff in them. In fact, by moving Lockpicking to Intellect, it actually made it WORSE (otherwise, Perception would be a second viable path to getting Forge books). And several of the skill trees are still "this one is for fighting" or "this one is for crafting" despite all that, including must-have skills across branches.

5) It seems it's possible to newb-trap yourself OUT of skill books. By focusing too heavily on something early, it seems you get EVEN LESS of books from other things. This makes the already bad RNG even worse, if that was possible...

.

1) There's no RNG protection. I have 2-3 points in Handguns in one game and 1 point in Master Chef and no points in Sledgehammers. Would you be shocked to hear my Pistol skill is only a point or two above my Sledgehammer skill, something I have nothing in, and my cooking is in the 40s somewhere while I haven't unlocked the Handgun quality 1 yet? And don't get me started on how many things I had to loot to get enough Forge books. I literally got a forge as a quest reward BEFORE I unlocked the ability to make one. That's absurd, and not because the quest gave me one. Supposedly taking skill points increases the chance of things...but RNG is still RNG and you can get shafted. Moreover, I tend to find lots of books for stuff I have no points at all in, while things I'm specifically gunning for (Grease Monkey) I'm still getting more books just BUYING THEM outright from Traders and waiting for their resetocks since I'm not finding them anywhere.

Note that this is a problem NEITHER Learn by Doing NOR Learn by Perks have. Both systems have a sort of RNG protection since you can just grind out crafting or level (respectively) and you're guaranteed to get at least some of the stuff you want relatively quickly. The Traders are a semi-fix, but are still RNG.

.

2) Learn by Doing is the most intuitive system. I make things of a type of thing, I get better at making those types of things. It's logical, it's rational, and I know what to do if I want to get better at certain things. While I recognize the "make 500 Stone Axes, now you can instantly make a level 5 Steel Axe" is a problem (see (3) below), there are better ways to address that. Moreover, as I said in (1), Learn by Doing's big advantage is that I can target skill gains into areas by focusing. There's no abject reliance on RNG to access even basic tools, weapons, and armors.

.

3) The best system would PROBABLY be a hybrid approach. Imagine, if you will... <plays 80s/90s "going into imagination/flashback" sound que>

...any number of systems, honestly.

a) Learn (the BASICS) by Doing - In this system, you get skill-ups by crafting, but only to a certain point. For example, level 15 in the 100 point categories. This is sufficient to, for example, learn the Pipe Pistol to quality 5 + the basic Handgun to quality 2 or 3. Learn the Dew Collector, Forge, and maybe Workbench (or be close to it). Learn the Bicycle. First Aid Bandages, and how to make basic cooking essentials like Grilled Meat, Cornbread, and Goldenrod Tea. All things that are, to me, good to RNG proof. Since this is a hybrid system, the current skill books would still exist, and be necessary for skills 16 and above, and could be used at lower level to get a "free" skill-up in a hurry.

b) Learn by Doing At-Level Crafts - For this system, think of something like old WoW leveling (no idea what they do now since I haven't played it in ages, but I mean the Vanilla through Mists of Pandera  era). The way it works is simple. At a level, you unlock a new item. When you do, it's orange. Orange means you are guaranteed to skill up crafting it. After a few points, though, it downgrades to yellow. Yellow has around a 50/50 shot to gain a skill up. After a few more, it downgrades to green. Green has a 10-30% chance (forget which, but basically "fairly low") to grant a skill up. Finally, you get gray. Gray means no more skill ups from crafting that item. So to use an example from 7 Days, suppose level 1 in Handguns (like now) unlocks the Pipe Pistol. For the first two crafts, you are guaranteed a skill (getting you to 3 and the quality 2 version). Now it's yellow, meaning a good, but not perfect chance, to gain a skill-up from crafting it. Maybe this goes from 4-7 or so (getting you up to quality 4). Then it goes green. So you have about a 1/10 to 1/3 chance of getting a skill up. Not impossible, but to get you to skill 11 and the Handgun would take 12-40 crafts. Then, at 11 when you unlock the second tier of the weapon, the quality 1 9mm Handgun (Beretta M9?), the Pipe Pistol goes gray. You will no longer gain skill-ups from it, and must craft the M9 to progress. Each tier would work with this same cycle, preventing someone from just crafting 100 Pipe Pistols day 1 and being able to make quality 5 Desert Vultures. Again, as in (a), you could have books to augment this, which could also help once you were in the "green" stage of crafting to smooth over those lower chance levels.

There are probably a lot of OTHER ways to deal with it, but I think (a) keeps the spirit of the current system while giving basic RNG protection to players, while (b) offers a different take that has skill books as still valuable (having to craft up to 40 of an item to get those last few levels of that tier could become VERY expensive), while still allowing players to choose how they play - loot or craft or both - to get to the end goal. In games, I generally believe, to a point, "choice is good". Letting people choose how they engage with the content is a huge factor into player enjoyment and replayability.

.

4) Somehow, the system DIDN'T fix one of the big complaints - that you needed to spec into Intellect to do anything. It just made it worse, since now you have to spec into Intellect and STILL may not get the books you need ANYway! And the worst part is, they even decided to make Lockpicking and Advanced Engineering give you the books...then moved Lockpicking from Perception into Intellect! Had they left it with Perception, it would give you two paths, instead of one, to increased Forging book drops. It didn't fix the problem that you still need to go Strength for cooking, mining, and woodcutting, Perception for salvageing and (why is this a skill?) specifically doing Buried Treasure missions (and later game for Lucky Looter, but because LL is percent based and doesn't have a flat addition, it's far less useful early on), Fortitude for farming and hunting, Agility gives a big fat NOTHING that isn't straight combat (despite having 2 or even 3 of the most common use early game weapons, Bows, Handguns, and debatably Knives), and Intellect is massive with all of forging/workbench/water collection (now SUPER important), medicine, vehicles, mission rewards, bartering, the only party buff in the game via leadership (and arguably medic), and now ALSO lockpicking, as if it didn't have enough already.

Could we not take some of the stuff from Intellect and spread it out? I get that it's only book chance now, but that's pretty significant unless you have loot turned up super high. It'd also be nice to have the playstyles mixed a bit more. Like we have a Light Armor (Agility) and Heavy Armor (Fortitude), but where's the armorless Monk that gains armor class by leveling (D&D-esque)? Could have Heavy Armor with Strength to make it the tank and have a perk that gives you 80-90% the armor class of tier 1-2-3-4 equipment per skill in the tier, provided you are wearing NO armor to give players another option for builds if they wanted to (I'd personally stick it in Fortitude since it'd go so well with Brawler, but Perception could also be a good choice).

I dunno, I just feel like so many opportunities were passed up with this new system, and while IN THEORY not making it required to put points into the various skill trees, it still makes them somewhat mandatory to get effective drop rates, but this just makes the problem worse since we have "Learn by Perk, now with an added layer of RNG so you can't even guarantee or target things you really want!"

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5) I'm not sure on the backend, but I still don't find mailboxes with more than 3 items. If I have maxed out every skill in the game, shouldn't that mailbox be full of items, throwing all kinds of magazines my way?

I think this is an issue with the loot tables, but I feel like the added drop percent should be for ADDITIONAL items, not replacing the base spawn items from the loot container in question. Otherwise, you run into the problem of "I put 5 points in knives and now I don't ever get ANY other book, despite having 1-2 points in those other things!", which is obviously a problem!

.

All in all, I understand what it's going for, but I think it misses the mark. I think in future iterations, it should use something like (3a) and shift into that kind of hybrid model to address the shortcomings of both systems.

[Renathras]

Oh, as an addendum:

I DO like the progression through the trees. I like how it's not just spend a point and unlock a tier. I like unlocking, for example, Pipe Pistol, working through the quality levels, then M9, those levels, then .44 mag, those levels, etc. I think that's cool.

I also REALLY like the Pipe Pistol. Like the almost steampunk feel and look of the thing is fantastic. I kinda wish there was a mod for the .44 to make it have the Pipe Pistol's appearance. I also like that the devs have TRIED to address the "bad RNG gives you no guns" problem by letting you craft something day one. The downside is, other than maybe the Pile Pistol, the other pipe weapons...suck (okay, maybe not the AR...) (And don't look as cool, no offense to the art team, they're just...different?). The Pipe Shotgun is a smidge better than the old Blunderbuss, but not a lot and takes forever and a day to reload its single shot. Sure, the Double Barrel isn't great, but reloads in a jiffy. The Pipe Rifle might be a decent semi-sniper rifle, but it reloads WAAAAY too slow, even for a "don't let them near you" weapon, making it more or less just useful for early game hunting. Which is fine, but that's pretty limiting. Haven't messed with the Pipe AR yet, but it feels like it's just a much more expensive (in ammo) Pipe Shotgun, though it's at least serviceable, I guess?

Decent quality Pipe Pistols are okay, and since you can no longer craft any ammo without a Workbench (which is 15 or so levels into THAT skill), it's the only one I tend to have any decent amount of ammo in. Even if I need to carry two to hot swap in some situations due to the reload being a bit sluggish, even one gets you several good shots.

I also think that ammo crafting needs to be SERIOUSLY reconsidered. At the very least, Shotgun shells should be craftable without a workbench - country boys reload the things all the time. Ideally 9mm, too. Maybe do the Campfire vs Chemistry Station where it costs more materials (spill/waste some Gunpowder in the crafting without a Workbench to give you a good working surface), but something. And likewise, we should be able to make the second weapon tier (M9, Double Barrel, AK-47, Robotic Sledge, and Hunting Rifle) without needing a Workbench. You can make Wooden Bows without one (and Iron Arrows, too!), and this should extend to the other weapons. Workbench for AP and specialty ammo, Tier 3 and above weapons; those things make sense. Workbench making it cheaper to make ammo, that makes sense, too.

But I think the low end needs some work still (while I DO recognize the devs trying to make it a bit better), and I think the game needs some RNG protection for low end players. If those two things can be shored up - which my suggestions in both these posts lean to - I think that would help out.

[theFlu]

10 hours ago, Renathras said:

Haven't messed with the Pipe AR yet, but it feels like it's just a much more expensive (in ammo) Pipe Shotgun, though it's at least serviceable, I guess?

That pipe machine gun is the absolute best of the pipe tier, only real drawback is the tiny magazine. Give it a whirl, ASAP

[Gr.o.m.]

2 hours ago, theFlu said:

That pipe machine gun is the absolute best of the pipe tier, only real drawback is the tiny magazine. Give it a whirl, ASAP

Probably if you fixate only at dps.

I think the pipe shotgun ist far more vesatile as a "oh-@%$#-weapon". You get good DPS, plus the slowing effect (at even more than one zombie) and if you take thetier 1 quest reward shotgun ammo, you get 60 rounds more than enough for a long time. All in all you get the most bang for the buck,

[theFlu]

7 minutes ago, Gr.o.m. said:

You get good DPS, plus the slowing effect

Sure, the "stun" / slow is good, but the stagger from the PMG is somewhat equally useful. 15 (or 22) rounds means you can drop a couple targets reliably, esp if you bother to go for head shots.

 

I don't blame you for liking the shotty, but in my eyes it's not really comparable.

[Gr.o.m.]

2 hours ago, theFlu said:

Sure, the "stun" / slow is good, but the stagger from the PMG is somewhat equally useful. 15 (or 22) rounds means you can drop a couple targets reliably, esp if you bother to go for head shots.

 

I don't blame you for liking the shotty, but in my eyes it's not really comparable.

Like I said. If you go for raw dps. But you have to pay it with ammo.

The shotty gives you the time to regroup, so you can either go on shooting or do some more wetwork with your meleeweapon.

[AtomicUs5000]

Ever since LBD was removed, I have seen that mixing core survival attributes with specializations causes problems... regardless of the method used to obtain or distribute skills and perks. Separation may be even more important than the method but there isn't a way to know because we've never seen that yet. It's just my theory.

Certain things everybody wants no matter what type of character you build.
Here are probably most of them:

- Max stamina increases.

- Better stamina recovery.

- Max health increases.

- Better health recovery.

- Increased overall attack speed.
- Increased overall damage against enemies.
- Increased overall defense against enemies.
- Increased overall damage against structure.

- Increased disease resistance.

- Increased ailment resistance.

- Increased mobility.

- Increased stealth.

- Increased collection of resources.

- Increased efficiency of hydration.

- Increased efficiency of satiation.
 
You take all that and build a core skill system where every player has the opportunity to improve all of these aspects to some reasonable arbitrary maximum value. LBD, LBR, LBP, LBAPPLESAUCE... it doesn't matter. All that matters is that any player can easily build these up for basic survivability.

 

Now, you add in specialization. Trees and perks must be carefully chosen regardless of the method used to progress.

Besides adding some specific traits, each specialization may increase a couple of the core aspects above a little more but is always tied to the specialization in some way. Each specialization may even be a small detriment to a couple of the core aspects above. However, when comparing one possible specialization to another, the core aspect increases and/or decreases are fairly similar in overall character survivability.

 

After you master any specialization you unlock the ability to choose some really special perk. For example in stealth, choose either 
- damage against enemies using stealth weapons has a 10% chance of being critical.
- no noise or stamina penalty for stealth sprinting.
This doesn't even have to be a one time choice. Perhaps for each specialization you get a different choice of perk at mastery levels 3, 7, 12. Just as an example.
This not only allows for a character to take on some role, a player can build their favorite role in slightly different ways for several playthroughs.
 
The number of different specializations a character can possibly decide to fully master in a single playthrough is up to a design decision, but even if it was just one, it should not be an unenjoyable experience because your overall survivability was handled outside of the specialization.

[minisith]

This game is less RPG since locations matter on what you can possibly find.  Hardware stores has more hardware mags.    Food stores has more food related items.  If you chack every toliot you should be good on water.    Find apartments to loot.  Hint hint.

[Spidey2832]

Anything but learn by reading/looting. 

 

We already did it once years ago and it SUUUUUCKED and now for some inconceivable reason it was brought back (improved a bit admittedly) and now it just sucks.  I said it in the development thread like a year ago when I heard the news.  Massive step backwards.  I think learn by looting can be a part (small) of progression.  But being the primary means is the absolute worst option.  Id rather go back to spam crafting stone axes.

 

I understand this was also an attempt to get people to move about the map and explore which is fine I guess but theres like a bunch of other features that have been asked for or promised long long long ago (cough cough raiders cough cough) that continually get de-prioritized for art and redoing systems that maybe weren't perfect but were fine.  Things like NPC communities, raider, quests that are more than just go 500m away and fight some zombies over and over.  Make the long distance trader quests more appealing to take on.  There's a multitude of ways instead of repeating a mistake from the past and also simultaneously ruining progression for folks in a group who are the "home body".

 

Hoping Darkness Falls and other mods can once again fix the mess.

[ninjagranny]

Don't post ofeten as in general i just love playing this game  - been playing it since it came out

 

The new set of extra books is horrendous - it  changes the game from survival into  zombie hunting .  TBH we play co-operative so maybe the pvp  people will like it but currently  not being able to  get  weapons and tools up to a decent level unless you randomly loot something is rubbish - sorry  i love this game but this is a seriously poor change .

Im going back to 20 until i can finish the mod for getting rid of the new books - currently the simplest way seems to be to leave them in but effectively give  10 books each time you  skill up in a normal tier - its a bit clunky but means that you can still specialise rather than  hunt zombies for the chance of gettitng what you need .

At least go back to  v16 method which makes some sense -  you use stuff you get better at using it . rather than  oops i have found a peice of paper and now am better at random skill .

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by ninjagranny (see edit history)

[Riamus]

10 hours ago, ninjagranny said:

Don't post ofeten as in general i just love playing this game  - been playing it since it came out

 

The new set of extra books is horrendous - it  changes the game from survival into  zombie hunting .  TBH we play co-operative so maybe the pvp  people will like it but currently  not being able to  get  weapons and tools up to a decent level unless you randomly loot something is rubbish - sorry  i love this game but this is a seriously poor change .

Im going back to 20 until i can finish the mod for getting rid of the new books - currently the simplest way seems to be to leave them in but effectively give  10 books each time you  skill up in a normal tier - its a bit clunky but means that you can still specialise rather than  hunt zombies for the chance of gettitng what you need .

At least go back to  v16 method which makes some sense -  you use stuff you get better at using it . rather than  oops i have found a peice of paper and now am better at random skill .

 

I'm not sure I understand your meaning.  Hunting zombies to get magazines?  That doesn't give you magazines.  If you are talking about looting and scavenging instead, then yes, that is pretty much required.

 

As far as being better from reading something... that's hardly unrealistic.  Ever read a manual that gave you the necessary information to put something together?  Same thing.  In fact, these are basically the same thing as getting the schematics except that it takes multiple magazines instead of one schematic.  Also, these only affect crafting, not a skill or the ability to use something.

 

These do seem to do what the devs stated they wanted - get people to craft more.  Unfortunately, after you get to the top stuff in the game, you realize that crafting is pretty broken with the huge amounts of required duct tape to make everything.  Far easier to buy or loot stuff.  It also doesn't scale well.  Depending on the number of players in your group and how much questing/looting you do, you are either going to be able to craft things far better than what you'll be able to loot or buy or you'll find and buy things far sooner than you can craft them.  This unbalanced scaling gets worse as your game progresses unless you're right at the "sweet spot" where it stays with you.

[bloodmoth13]

Current system is the best so far, you really get your build online fast and speccing into something feels great.

I hated buying skills it always felt like @%$#, like you buy a forge and you immediately find the schematic afterwards.

Learn by doing probably had the longest longevity and it made sense but honestly it wasn't good. Making a million stone axes and bugging the server every night was just yuck.

 

[Archael]

3 hours ago, bloodmoth13 said:

Current system is the best so far, you really get your build online fast and speccing into something feels great.

I hated buying skills it always felt like @%$#, like you buy a forge and you immediately find the schematic afterwards.

Learn by doing probably had the longest longevity and it made sense but honestly it wasn't good. Making a million stone axes and bugging the server every night was just yuck.

 

You spec into miner, go to mine and... never get anything better than stone axe q1... so fast and so best.

[bloodmoth13]

9 hours ago, Archael said:

You spec into miner, go to mine and... never get anything better than stone axe q1... so fast and so best.

Right that's the only issue is players are forced to loot.

It's a good direction that might need a few holes plugged but I don't think tfp want players to succeed as underground moles all game as mining forever isn't what the game is designed around, if you mine at night and loot during the day it's fine

[ninjagranny]

Sorry  I obviously didnt  explain myslef well enough

In a  multiplayer game  we tend to have a  zombie masher  a cook a/ gardener  a  crafter  a builder and a miner  (although different people  can take whatever specialisation they want and someteimes we have no zombie masher etc  )- so they specialsie in what they want to do . With the new system you cant - you  have to go out and loot  / fight zombies .. I have 1300 hours in game so  far and have used minor mods to remove the  huge xp form trader quests and reduce xp from zombie kills etc . nothing massive  ( oh yea and  remove the  autokill traps like the blades as they make end game  way too simple  and  put blood moon up by  10 times .)

 

Even single player  you  cant for example spec into a stealth bowman for example as you have to loot  the correct  magazines to even be able to  make  basic items .. it just random grindfest without being able to specialise . Quest  xp is ridiculoulsy high and  you can cane through levels if you leave it like that - I have re-instaleld  a 20    and am digging through the  huge amount of changes to  get rid of the magazines  

[Archael]

10 hours ago, bloodmoth13 said:

Right that's the only issue is players are forced to loot.

It's a good direction that might need a few holes plugged but I don't think tfp want players to succeed as underground moles all game as mining forever isn't what the game is designed around, if you mine at night and loot during the day it's fine

Why not?
Game is suppoused to be towerdefence, survival, sandbox game. Why in such game im not suppouse to succed as underground mole?
Right not THE ONLY thing to do is to loot, and maybe do quests at the same time because its even more loot.
you cannot spec into anything other than looting, because doing anything other will not bring you magazines and not allow you to do any other activity.

[MiTHMoN]

Spam-crafting stone axes to improve the stone axe crafting skill was entirely goofy. I remember just joining a game, and constantly dropping stone axes because you can't salvage while crafting. Just queuing up hundreds of stone axes. 

 

I can't relate to people who thought that was a good system. 

 

It made me feel powerful to be so quickly and reliably gaining progress, but it completely ruins immersion.

 

 

I like A21's system, but honestly I'd prefer it to be different than any of the previous iterations. 

You know what'd be cool? Combining all 3, and adding a little extra. 

 

 

I think what I'd like to see done, is: 

1. Have crafting skill books, like we have in A21. 

2. Have "learn by doing", but not have it apply to crafting. So you don't spam-craft things to get better at crafting. 

3. Have two types of "perk points". One of them the way it currently is, and maybe a second resource like "specialization points" where you start with 1 and only get 1 every 25 levels or so. 

4. Make "quality 7" weapons require you to be specced into the weapon perk before they're even added to the loot table. 

 

So with my suggestion, A21-style crafting skill books primarily dictate crafting. 

Combat / gathering would be primarily a combination of perk points and learn-as-you-do. 

And having hard specialization points allow you to carve out a niche within a co-op group.

As well as the best loot not just being based on RNG, but actually requiring you to actually invest skill points to obtain the best loot of its type. 

 

I've always found it super unfair (since the change ages ago) that if "Player A" invests their perk points into, let's say Pistols, uses pistols primarily, crafts pistols, and basically does everything in their power to specialize in one thing, and with A21 they max out the skill book tree 100/100, they can still only craft Quality 5 pistols. Meanwhile "Player B" just has to loot things with zero investment or specialization, and they can get Quality 6 pistols. 

 

I think obtaining the highest quality (let's call it "quality 7") should require investing specifically into that weapon/tool/item to be able to find it in loot. Quality 5 for crafting, quality 6 for looting, quality 7 for investing points and then looting.