Sleepers even worse now.

[seven]

4 hours ago, theFlu said:

Yeh, the practicality of that room isn't bad; just the implementation - in A20 that would've been worth a bug report, but with the new shenanigans, I don't think it's worth one now.

 

For rooms you have to drop into.. I'm not against that entirely. As long as the zeds are there whenever I can see them, and the rubble below me isn't magically steel so I can ladder it up if I want. It might be an obvious trap, but as long as it at least obeys physics ... or some such

 

Well, that's not new for that room. It was like that in A20. What would be new is if zombies spawned on the roof above him after he stepped down there.

[theFlu]

1 minute ago, seven said:

Well, that's not new for that room. It was like that in A20.

Ye, I know, never made a report back then either. They did fix some similar based on reports, the motel loot room drop was one, I think.

 

I just linked the vid for the audible frustration that seems to represent a few of us in this thread...

[aamatniekss]

I know this has probably been talked about already, but It definitely hasnt been  talked about enough, and it oh so deserves talking about.
I just had the 'pleasure' of finally playing through a tier 5 poi, in this instance navezgane corrections prison. And holy @%$#, if this is not just purely bugs, then damn, you guys need to be embarrased for ever thinking this could be a good idea to add. Every single room I went into, spawned from 5-20 zombies out of thin air. You walk out in the courtyard 10 vultures, 5 dogs, and 20 zombies just come out, from nowhere really, just by you walking on an invisible trigger. Go in another room, see noone, and 5 zombies pop out from the nether realm into existence right in front of your eyes. 
All i could think about when playing this was - this has got to be completely bugged, because coudl they really possibly have thought this to be good gameplay?
Stealth is impossible in this POI, because you cant even get close enough, to even see the zombies, or they simply dont exist yet, without pulling the trigger. The final room in this POI literlaly spawned like 30-50 zombies on me out of seemingly thin air.
It's just ridiculous. Tier 5s used to be my favourite thing in this game.
Sorry, not sorry for the harsh critique, but damn. Have we had some comments form the devs if these are just bugs, or is this how its intended?

PS. this was made to feel even more bitter for me, because the rest of the alpha is really good, i quite enjoy every other new addition, the magazine system is fun, and the water changes are great imo, but this trigger stuff and spawning zombies out of thin air is just what.
PSS. Also sorry if it's too mean of a title, but I wanted to get your attention, because i think this is very important and if this doesn't fixed, then Im super worried about the future of the game. Maybe im in the minority though, but i think this is a terrible, terrible change.

Edited July 14, 2023 by aamatniekss (see edit history)

[theFlu]

Not alone, maybe in the minority, I dunno. I hate it thou; both that POI and the new design. There was some discussion earlier about the prison in this thread:

That was started way back in the good times, when I still thought stealth might become a fun spec to play at some point in the future...

 

The title isn't too mean, IMO, just quite vague, would be nice to see the topics of today's whines from the menu ..

[Abusimplea]

They likely just botched the trigger system leading it to spawn really late. Maybe those new room triggers where supposed to trigger when you come into a defined range of the trigger shape and for some reason the proximity check never fires until you stand right on the shape.

 

The whole 7D2D experience is an odd mix of immersive sim and horror house themepark. Obviously, woke aggro spawns right on top of you don't go well with immersive anything.

But they also added that horde spawning outside around the corner and comming at you when you open some door - and that is actually fine to me. Some might feel it being unfair too (especially when coming from earlier alphas) - but it is believable and fits their horror house themepark aesthetics. So i think, it is fair game as is the wandering horde even though that can be overwhelming early on.

 

So no, there is no reason for shame. They are just devs experimenting with a new spawn system flavor. It just needs a few more iterations to make it work in a non-immersion-breaking manner. It definitely doesn't work as intended right now.

[theFlu]

8 minutes ago, Abusimplea said:

They likely just botched the trigger system leading it to spawn really late.

Some have been the standard fare of just being late for sure. Others are decidedly "you press this button and these zeds just appeared in the empty room". The courtyard zeds you mention work on a switch. You'd hear actual hordes, and they behave quite differently. Not a huge deal as such, just mildly breaking the established physics.

 

I've seen the couple alphas as they've added the triggers, they'll improve over time, sure. These ones will as well but.. this time they're willing to break physics to create their traps, zeds officially just teleport to areas even after you've seen them 2 seconds ago. For me that's the GM going god mode and me surviving just on his grace. He didn't spawn enough to kill me, this time... Which robs me of any sense of achievement.

 

It also removes any reason for caution - I (actually in my game) don't care about the corners because, why would I? The GM wants something to hit me from there, something will hit me from there... if he doesn't, great, I saved myself a bandage.

 

And why on earth are we pretending to do Clear quests if the zeds can't be cleared...

 

It feels like they played "madmole has an M60 and steel armor, try to kill him" long enough to need to start breaking things. I _hope_ they roll it waay back, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[BFT2020]

I wonder if some of the zombie triggers happen because they design the POI first and assign a level, then try to fill it with the required zombies to meet the tier designation.  So bigger POIs don't have that issue as they can spread them out further, but ones with a smaller footprint, they have to be creative to get those zombie counts up.

[theFlu]

47 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

So bigger POIs don't have that issue as they can spread them out further, but ones with a smaller footprint, they have to be creative to get those zombie counts up.

If I had that problem, I'd solve it by setting the tier down one, not try to invent Inverted Schrödinger's Zombies.. whether or not you look in the box, you still don't have a clue if they're alive or not, or even there yet.

[Abusimplea]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

It feels like they played "madmole has an M60 and steel armor, try to kill him" long enough to need to start breaking things. I _hope_ they roll it waay back, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Who knows - maybe that actually is what happened for the prison POIs. Maybe it actually just was "Design me a POI where i can't just run in with an M60 and mow em all down as i go because i want a real challenge."

And sure, they can make it a death trap for Madmole with ease - with or without triggers as he really isn't a subtle player at all. But IzPrebuilt will still just casually hop through it like a bunny throwing grenades all over the place. And the moment where you manage to make it a death trap for him at insane nightmare, the game really isn't fun for anyone else on standard anymore too.

 

The new POIs look awesome and it would be a shame if most players would just never be able to fully enjoy them just because they feel unfair and deplete their ammo too quickly. It isn't like some fortniting couldn't even the odds quite a bit - but that isn't like most people want to play (even feels a bit wrong to me and i actually first came here for the better looking Minecraft).

[Rotor]

On 6/27/2023 at 7:10 PM, Khissi said:

.... being just bum porked for absolutely no reason. 

 

Nothing usefull to add to the thread, but the filter evasion here was very stealthy.  Which mag gives that perk? :).

[Khissi]

26 minutes ago, Rotor said:

 

Nothing usefull to add to the thread, but the filter evasion here was very stealthy.  Which mag gives that perk? :).

Old age... and genetics.  Being female, It's my genetic right to change my mind, squirrel, and squeal at a moment's notice.  Being bum porked involves all three of those.

[Roland]

On 6/17/2023 at 8:43 AM, boban said:

as fighting zombies head on seem to be current intended play style.

 

It's not. The intended play style is to have a variety of experiences. In most POIs you can still do most rooms stealthy-- especially if you clear them at night and if there are no light sources shining on you. But the devs do intend for there to be jump scares and they do intend for you to fight head-on more often than not in the final loot room.

 

What I don't understand is the sentiment that is often posted that if you can't stealth 100% then it might as well be removed from the game. That's just ridiculous. I enjoy stealth gameplay and I get plenty of it every playthrough but there are also times when it is a head-on fight. The game isn't a dedicated stealth game just like it isn't a dedicated survival game or a dedicated crafting game or a dedicated RPG. It combines elements of many different genres.

 

The character build is Agility not stealth. There are some perks that help with stealth and that often require agility in order to run and hide and get into shadows in order to restealth after zombies have spawned from a trigger. It is true that in previous more rudimentary versions, you often could 100% a POI by killing every enemy while it was sleeping but that was never the intended design.  But that doesn't mean the intended design is to 100% POIs by direct guns blazing head-on action either.

 

If the OP and others feel like stealth perks are not worth taking as part of the Agility build then don't take them. But there are still plenty of people who are happy to mix things up and stealth through a great many portions of most POIs and also scramble to fight off ambushes and also to wake everything up and kite them outside and kill them, and also chop through walls and locked doors rather than follow the defined path, etc etc.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Riamus]

On 6/29/2023 at 4:42 PM, Renathras said:

I've even noticed this in the Tier 1 gas station with the dog in the back. I see the yellow dot, go back there, no dog. No sleeping dog. No nothing. I have to get all up on the dog house itself before the dog spawns, away and instantly agroed and generally behind me no matter which direction I'm facing somehow.

I think I know which one you are talking about.  That dog is spawned but it's laying down behind some stuff.  If you walk up to the doghouse, it'll definitely wake up and attack you and because it can go around the stuff it is behind, it could come out in front of you or behind you. If you get up onto the stuff, you can attack it without waking it up.

 

I'm not saying the new spawning out of nowhere isn't happening or that it is acceptable but in this case, that isn't what is happening in that POI.

 

[Riamus]

Anyone ever wonder if the POI designers using this new spawn out of nowhere system are the same type of players who camp outside a trader and kill level 1 players for sport?  Instead of trying to make challenging POI designs, it seems like they choose instead to grief players.

 

There is a big difference between making things more challenging by adding more zombies, or creating rooms where you don't have clear lines of sight and can easily be ambushed or flanked, or other similar design choices versus make zombies appear out of thin air.  At least when they drop out of ceilings, they came from somewhere regardless if people think that makes sense.

 

I don't stealth but I still think some of these spawns are bad.

[theFlu]

33 minutes ago, Roland said:

If the OP and others feel like stealth perks are not worth taking as part of the Agility build then don't take them.

I'll be one of those right now, playing a full AGI game, 0 stealth points, 0 archery.. after 10/10 and couple 5/5s, started going up Rifles as a secondary. The mobility makes them a decent match. Stealth is just too unpredictable to use, and too frustrating with the triggers, forced or automatic.

 

33 minutes ago, Roland said:

What I don't understand is the sentiment that is often posted that if you can't stealth 100% then it might as well be removed from the game. That's just ridiculous.

This is fair, but .. the game kinda causes the sentiment. The stealth itself either works 100% or does absolutely nothing. If it was "something else than 100%", it might make people think about balancing. People will complain that it doesn't work, as it doesn't. (I know perfectly well How it works, and it doesn't..)

 

If there was some reasonable middle ground, people might be seeing it as a matter of balancing, and maybe offer ideas but as successful stealth is shooting ducks in a barrel and unsuccessful stealth is having 6 rads chewing your rear off for 20 seconds, after which you can stealth in their face, if you still live. Yeah. It doesn't work. The fix isn't 100% stealth, it's 20-80% successful "reasonable stealth gameplay".

Edited July 15, 2023 by theFlu (see edit history)

[seven]

On 6/29/2023 at 10:41 PM, faatal said:

Trigger volumes are new and POI designers want sleeper volume zombies to attack you when triggered that way. There is no stealth check like an attack sleeper volume has. I play agility/stealth, but never expect it to work 100% of the time. My solution is fight them head on or run away, lose them and come back, then stealth kill them as triggers only happen once. Repeat as necessary.

 

Nothing is locked in stone. All values in the game are candidates for tweaking. I think we have made balance adjustments to every stable release, since I have been working here and I'm sure 21.1 will have some adjustments as we play more and get more feedback.

 

So glock did a Tier 6 infestation at the jail and didn't die. I expect values will now be tweaked even harder.

[Rotor]

If I ever get to one of these impossible PoI unless you min/max, I think I am just going to dig around it and fill it full of dynamite.

 

If I cant have it neither will the zombies :).

[RipClaw]

3 hours ago, seven said:

So glock did a Tier 6 infestation at the jail and didn't die. I expect values will now be tweaked even harder.

I also saw the video and Glock left out some rooms that he cleared after the main room. But he ran out of ammo in the main room. Without the infestation crate, he probably would have died because he would have run out of ammo.

 

 I died twice in this POI. Yesterday I finally completed it using grenades and exploding crossbow bolts.
 

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[seven]

21 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

I also saw the video and Glock left out some rooms that he cleared after the main room. But he ran out of ammo in the main room. Without the infestation crate, he probably would have died because he would have run out of ammo.

 

 I died twice in this POI. Yesterday I finally completed it using grenades and exploding crossbow bolts.
 

 

I've done the jail once and didn't die. It wasn't an infestation though, and I had a t5 smg and stacks of ammo. Also high agility and was jumping around like a crazy person. And just nomad difficulty.

[RipClaw]

12 minutes ago, seven said:

Also high agility and was jumping around like a crazy person. And just nomad difficulty.

I play on warrior difficulty and I have a strength build. This agile playstyle with jumping around is not my thing. My problem was that I was constantly bleeding and therefore could hardly see anything.

[pApA^LeGBa]

On 7/5/2023 at 3:53 PM, theFlu said:

Yeh, the practicality of that room isn't bad; just the implementation - in A20 that would've been worth a bug report, but with the new shenanigans, I don't think it's worth one now.

 

For rooms you have to drop into.. I'm not against that entirely. As long as the zeds are there whenever I can see them, and the rubble below me isn't magically steel so I can ladder it up if I want. It might be an obvious trap, but as long as it at least obeys physics ... or some such

 

That can´t be intended behaviour that zombies spawn in that late when you can clearly see their spawn point. That has to be a bug. @faatal?

 

There is no way that enemies spawning out of thin air is a intended game mechanic. This was a problem once already in A15, A14 i think, can´t remember exactly. It got fixed, so i can´t imagine that this is intended. That would be downright unfair and really bad game design.

 

@seven I have honestly no clue how i should do the county jail without explosives on warrior. I mount a ladder at the hole, at least cobblestone due to cop spit, jump down to activate and go instantly back up and flood them with grenades. I rather deal with 5 screamers than doing that fight inside.

Edited July 23, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[seven]

4 hours ago, RipClaw said:

I play on warrior difficulty and I have a strength build. This agile playstyle with jumping around is not my thing. My problem was that I was constantly bleeding and therefore could hardly see anything.

 

Jumping around isn't my thing either unless I'm cornered. I do stealth, my idea of a successful mission is not firing a bullet, even T5. It's not possible anymore, or at least I'm not good enough to do it. I think I've played a few hours since I did the jail a few weeks ago. The new trigger volumes have taken the fun out of the game for me.

[theFlu]

5 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

That can´t be intended behaviour that zombies spawn in that late when you can clearly see their spawn point. That has to be a bug.

Well, for that specific POI it probably isn't intended. I'll pretend I just don't have access to Kage's log file for not reporting it as a bug..

 

My laziness might have something to do with the design of certain places doing worse things intentionally. Even if that room worked like that intentionally, it wouldn't be the worst offender for breaking physics; not even a contender...

[seven]

15 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

@seven I have honestly no clue how i should do the county jail without explosives on warrior. I mount a ladder at the hole, at least cobblestone due to cop spit, jump down to activate and go instantly back up and flood them with grenades. I rather deal with 5 screamers than doing that fight inside.

 

With an agility build I used the same general strategy that glock did. Run up the stairs, jump off, run up again, keep looping the zombies around killing as I went. It also helps that you can jump over their heads to get around them.

[theFlu]

22 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

I have honestly no clue how i should do the county jail without explosives on warrior.

I filmed doing it as a T5 Clear arcade style, link in the videos section.. just jumped into the final fight. Warrior diff as well.

 

 

EDIT: Or wait, "county jail" .. am I thinking of wrong POI? meh, after checking the footage, "Navezgane County Jail" is the proper name for it

Edited July 23, 2023 by theFlu (see edit history)