Hard-core survival description on Steam store

[Matt115]

11 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Wait a moment. Are you saying Factorio has Survival in the game? Where?

i made tower defence and surivival in one in this game case - there is mode called death world - you are starting in small zone with small number of resources - outside there is tons of bugs --> so instead food andd water you have to managment electricity and ores so  yeah this is some type of  survival

 

Just now, Roland said:

I’ve not played The Long Dark or Green Hell. Do either of those games start to feel trivial from a survival aspect once you gain enough experience with them and come to know exactly what you should do and where to go in order to overcome whatever might be threatening your life at a given moment in the game?  If not, why not?  How do those games remain hardcore survival for the fan with 1000+ hours? @theFlu brought up the point about gameplay loops that trivialize survival and that the gameplay loop that does that in 7 Days involves the trader and is easily discernible after not too many hours playing the game. 

In these other games that deserve the title hardcore survival, what is it that makes survival difficult no matter how experienced you are with the game?

 

Yes off experience no matter - i remeber that was guy who spend  200+ hours on one map (this is rly big achivement - it was topic of one video) in project zomboid - character died because he bleed out in very stupid way.  So.... you can "in theory" know what to do but you can a bush was on your way. Total war attila is much more harcore that total war shogun 2 - in shogun 2 you have public happiness, money, technology , religion/faction influence ( but it's very simple - this is just connected with public connected). While in attila you have - influence of your family and you have to take care about support, culture regions - in some regions you will have big problems because of that, if you claim region --> culture of building, much more advance diplomacy, a lot of religions, big scales events,  "family" events, mercenary units etc. So... Attila is much harded even even pro players campain sometimes are go to bin because something radomly happens

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Roland Every game get´s easier and has a point where the challenge curve flattens out the more experience you have. That´s not the point here. The reason for comparing these games with 7 days is that for a person who didn´t play 7 days and Green Hell (or any other game i listed) at all, will perceive 7 days WAY easier in comparison.

 

And if you played other survival games you will also have no troubles in 7 days. In Green Hell on the other hand i did struggle a lot and i played a fair share of different survival games.

 

Sure Project Zomboid will be a breeze once you have a few hundred hours in it aswell for example (well depending on the settings, it can still be very challenging for experienced players). But only once forget to turn off the stove and your base will burn down. No matter how easy the game got after a few hundred hours, a very small mistake can cost you everything. In 7 days? Not so much.

Edited September 3, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[warmer]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

I’ve not played The Long Dark or Green Hell.   @theFlu
In these other games that deserve the title hardcore survival, what is it that makes survival difficult no matter how experienced you are with the game?

This exactly what I meant by difficulty being inversely proportional to number of hours in game. Both of the games have severe penalties for ignoring basic character health maintenance.

 

If you want it "more" hardcore. Mod your debuffs to be deadly. End of story. There you go, more hardcore. the entire argument is based in the "survival" elements not being hard enough.  

 

How about 7 days to heal a broken bone, 1 day to or an infection kills you, edit the biome.xml for more severe temp difference between areas making cold/heat more of a killer. How about playing "dead is dead" like I suggested?

 

If you remember that is the definition of "hardcore" difficulty for many games, and you also have "survival" elements. There you go. Harder to survive. Its not the problem of the games framework when the tools exist, it is a problem of your expectations that is remains difficult once you know and understand the mechanics.

 

Some people complain food/water are already too hard for them. Why? Gameplay experience. That is it.

 

Anything ceases to be hardcore once you have mastered the basics unless the game ramps difficulty with you, ala gamestage, and that only helps for so long. You have beat vanilla, accept that achievement as a win for you, and not a fault of the game when there are 100's of ways to make it more hardcore if you wish.

[Roland]

10 minutes ago, warmer said:

This exactly what I meant by difficulty being inversely proportional to number of hours in game. Both of the games have severe penalties for ignoring basic character health maintenance.

 

If you want it "more" hardcore. Mod your debuffs to be deadly. End of story. There you go, more hardcore. the entire argument is based in the "survival" elements not being hard enough.  

 

How about 7 days to heal a broken bone, 1 day to or an infection kills you, edit the biome.xml for more severe temp difference between areas making cold/heat more of a killer. How about playing "dead is dead" like I suggested?

 

If you remember that is the definition of "hardcore" difficulty for many games, and you also have "survival" elements. There you go. Harder to survive. Its not the problem of the games framework when the tools exist, it is a problem of your expectations that is remains difficult once you know and understand the mechanics.

 

Some people complain food/water are already too hard for them. Why? Gameplay experience. That is it.

 

Anything ceases to be hardcore once you have mastered the basics unless the game ramps difficulty with you, ala gamestage, and that only helps for so long. You have beat vanilla, accept that achievement as a win for you, and not a fault of the game when there are 100's of ways to make it more hardcore if you wish.

I think you make a good point that modding is part of the intended game design. I don’t know how moddable The Long Dark or Green Hell are but I’m pretty sure this game could be modded to be just as difficult to survive as those games are if not more so.

 

As you said, simply editing the consequences of critical debuffs to be more dire and making their remedies harder to obtain would ramp up the hardcore aspect of the game by quite a bit. It isn’t tough “modding” to lower the food drop rate— just playing on 25% loot drop significantly makes food tougher and that’s a main option without need for editing any code. 
 

If the devs knew at the time of writing the description that they were going to make modding such an integral part of the game to allow users the ability to make it as hardcore or casual as they wish wouldn’t it be okay to give it the hardcore survival label?

 

Maybe the best “marketing brag” would be to simply state that the game is infinitely adjustable to make it the hardest of hardcore survival games to the most relaxing of casual living games in existence. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[warmer]

6 minutes ago, Roland said:

I think you make a good point that modding is part of the intended game design. I don’t know how moddable The Long Dark or Green Hell are but I’m pretty sure this game could be modded to be just as difficult to survive as those games are if not more so.

Also, if you want to make it much more hardcore with 3 settings. Turn loot abundance all the way down, no loot respawn, and no air drops.

Instantly a TON harder, you are going to have to hunt for most of your food and water/jars much harder to come by. There are options, but what bugs me is when someone with agency pretends like they are helpless to change the games settings to taste. The settings available are already 10x what most games give you as far as tailored difficulty. If the game just isn't fun for you with all those options...

Maybe it's not the game for you?

Edited September 3, 2022 by warmer (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

@warmer Telling this again: It´s not about making 7 days harder here. It´s about calling it hardcore.

 

New player, never touched any survival game. If he plays 7 days, Green Hell, Project Zomboid, The Long Dark for the first time and like 30 hours each, 7 days will be the easiest of them.

 

That´s all what this is about. We don´t discuss how we make 7 days harder here, that´s a different story.

 

@RolandIf you need mods to make it hardcore, it doesn´t deserve to be called hardcore. Since when does a developer describe how his games is like when playing with mods? That never happened and will never happen.  That´s just a made up argument trying to defend the description now. Wow.

Edited September 3, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[warmer]

12 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@warmer Telling this again: It´s not about making 7 days harder here. It´s about calling it hardcore.

 

Words with meanings like "hardcore" are subjective. And you are 1 person with an opinion on what that means. Until you can point to a world agreed upon definition of what "hardcore survival" means, it's an opinion. That's it. Opinions are not global truths. This is why I said, "Survival" is literally the concept of NOT dying. If you want to go back to when the term originated, it was in games where the "Hardcore" setting would ERASE your save game upon death.

AGAIN @pApA^LeGBa that is exactly what "dead is dead" style of playthrough is. SO.... That is just a user defined rule set. You are an adult. Make up your own rules if you want it more hardcore. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by warmer (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

@warmer Yeah literally survival means to survive. But that´s not what defines the genre survival in gaming. Otherwise Super Mario World would be a survival game as you can also die. CS:GO and even snake on a old nokia phone would be  a survival game then aswell. Literally every game where you can die would be survival. 

 

And i can´t make it any clearer then above. If a new player plays all the games i listed he will tag 7 days as easy compared to the others. Hence hardcore is the wrong description. Food is literally everywhere, hunger and thirst have minimal effects on you, weather/temperature aswell. All that are things that aren´t hardcore. And new players struggling in the game doesn´t make it hardcore either. I have seen new people struggle with survival playing RAFT. Yet no one would call it hardcore.

Edited September 3, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[warmer]

3 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@warmer  If a new player plays all the games i listed he will tag 7 days as easy compared to the others. Hence hardcore is the wrong description. Food is literally everywhere, hunger and thirst have minimal effects on you, weather/temperature aswell. All that are things that aren´t hardcore. And new players struggling in the game doesn´t make it hardcore either. I have seen new people struggle with survival playing RAFT. Yet no one would call it hardcore.

LIke I said, turn loot abundance all the way down, no loot respawn and no air drops. Edit bioms.xml for more severe temp differences. Problem solved.

Edited September 3, 2022 by warmer (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

You do realize those other games have settings for difficulty aswell? I am comparing default here. If i fiddle with the settings in the other games aswell we are were we started. They will  still be harder than 7 days.

 

And againg, this topic is NOT about making 7 days harder. It´s about the description wich is wrong compared to many other survival games.

Edited September 3, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[warmer]

5 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

You do realize those other games have settings for difficulty aswell? I am comparing default here. If i fiddle with the settings in the other games aswell we are were we started. They will  still be harder than 7 days.

Ok, then turn all your settings to the most difficult for you and make that your default. You have agency, or maybe you don't know how that menu with 3 pages of settings works. It's up to you to use the tools you have. Whining about it when you have the tools "by default" is pretty comical actually.

Edited September 3, 2022 by warmer (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

How often do i have to say this? IT IS NOT ABOUT MAKING 7 DAYS HARDER.  It´s about a wrong description on the shop page. 7 days isn´t hardcore compared to many other surival games, no matter what settings you use.

Edited September 3, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Roland]

21 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

That´s just a made up argument trying to defend the description now. Wow.

Im not trying to defend the description. I care way way way less about it than you do. I don’t think it’s worth the effort of changing it I think it matters so little. This is an interesting conversation and I’m throwing out thoughts that occur to me but I’m not arguing to defend.

 

If I’m arguing for any point at all it is that just because 7 Days to Die is easier than those other listed games it doesn’t automatically mean that the cut-off line for “hardcore” lies between them and 7 Days. You are arbitrarily drawing the line in the sand which is your right to do when expressing your opinion but I disagree that your line is THE line. 
 

In my opinion any discussion about what this game is or is not should include modding because it was designed from the moment of conception to be modded. The files are set up as an advanced configurations menu. You say a developer can’t make claims based on mods but what about options. Can they claim their game is hardcore knowing players can turn off loot respawn, change the game to 25% loot, and delete all on death?  These particular three settings do increase the hardcore survival factor of the game and they don’t require any modding knowledge. 

[warmer]

1 minute ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

How often do i have to say this? IT IS NOT ABOUT MAKING 7 DAYS HARDER.  It´s about a wrong description on the shop page. 7 days isn´t hardcore compared to many other surival games, no matter what settings you use.

Hardcore is the definition of getting your game erased upon death. That's the original definition, now attach "survival" to that. How many times do I have to say your point of view is subjective? Play dead is dead. Problem solved. So much energy to complain about what the meaning of a word is that doesn't meet your exact specifications.

Just now, Roland said:

In my opinion any discussion about what this game is or is not should include modding because it was designed from the moment of conception to be modded. The files are set up as an advanced configurations menu. You say a developer can’t make claims based on mods but what about options. Can they claim their game is hardcore knowing players can turn off loot respawn, change the game to 25% loot, and delete all on death?  These particular three settings do increase the hardcore survival factor of the game and they don’t require any modding knowledge. 

exactly

[Rotor]

I think we are down to whose #1 digit is bigger here.

 

"Excuseme while I whip this out"

 

/bonuspointsformovierefi.d.

[pApA^LeGBa]

5 minutes ago, warmer said:

Hardcore is the definition of getting your game erased upon death. That's the original definition, now attach "survival" to that. How many times do I have to say your point of view is subjective? Play dead is dead. Problem solved. So much energy to complain about what the meaning of a word is that doesn't meet your exact specifications.

exactly

 

You still think we are talking about making 7 days harder in this discussion. But that´s not what this discussion is about at all. I am sorry but you simply don´t understand what this discussion is about.

 

And since when does hardcore mean perma death? A game can be hardcore without perma death. Sure, perma death is way to make things harder, but it´s not the definition of hardcore.

[Roland]

13 minutes ago, Rotor said:

I think we are down to whose #1 digit is bigger here.

 

"Excuseme while I whip this out"

 

/bonuspointsformovierefi.d.

haha…I think the real issue here is that @pApA^LeGBa has been disappointed in the loss of tough survival features in the game and has been asking for the game to focus on the survival aspects for years. I don’t think he’s really calling for the removal of the label so much as he is using this as an opportunity to once again say “we need to focus on the survival game and make it tougher” like Jost was suggesting. 
 

Im not against those suggestions either. I’d like debuffs to persist after death so it isn’t a quick cure. I’d like an official Ironman option. I’d like to see food get a balance pass. I’d like options to remove the trader and limit quests.  I think food spoilage and weapon degradation are important but I also know those features would alienate a lot of people. 
 

But I also think that the game just as it is, is still on the hardcore side of the spectrum. It’s cool that other games exceed 7 Days but they don’t disqualify 7 Days in my opinion. 

[warmer]

Until you layout what you specifically and precisely mean in a detail manner by "hardcore survival"

 

you have a nebulus goal post you can move at will.

 

Pretty sure I have detailed what I think it means and @pApA^LeGBa just keep saying, That is "harder" and not hardcore... Ya know a compound word of "hard."

4 minutes ago, Roland said:

But I also think that the game just as it is, is still on the hardcore side of the spectrum. It’s cool that other games exceed 7 Days but they don’t disqualify 7 Days in my opinion. 

Yes, that is like saying a Ferrari isn't fast, just because a jet car broke the sound barrier on the salt flats. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by warmer (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

 

Well, there seems clearly to be a language barrier between me and you @warmer One last try: It´s only about the description of the games default settings in the steam shop. It´s not about changing the game or it´s settings.

 

@Roland If that would be the case i would have said so. I see no point anymore in asking for the game to get harder. That ship has sailed. I either mod the game if i want that or play harder survival games. I made it very clear a few times that this is not about making the game harder. That would be derailing wouldn´t it? I mean how much clearer can i make it other than saying this:

 

On 9/1/2022 at 12:33 AM, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

 Calling this game a hardcore survival experience is misleading. That´s the whole point. No one in this thread is asking to make it hardcore (many of us wish for it to be harder, that´s true, but that is not the point in this thread). Just pointing out that the description about the survival part is wrong.

 

But well i am not surprised you take that route in the discussion now, seen that too many times already that if you can´t convince someone, that you try to question the motivation of a post, no matter how clear the actual intention is.

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Rotor]

56 minutes ago, Roland said:

But I also think that the game just as it is, is still on the hardcore side of the spectrum. It’s cool that other games exceed 7 Days but they don’t disqualify 7 Days in my opinion. 

 

 

I would say this as only been playing since December and less than 1k hours, but might be up to 500.

 

The weather is joke and food that doesnt spoil is a joke as well.

 

As stated before, I play "DisD" and not trader quests.  Although I use the traders as an anti RnG mechanic. Loot no respawn, but 100%.  Zombies 25% Regular days, 50% BM damage.  Feral on at night and BM.  Also play vanilla and only two mods for no respawn and compass declutter.

 

With those restrictions I dont diddly daddle at night, and hide and craft. I dont have the greatest at day 171BM last night.  I still dont have a Chem station. ETC.

 

However, line one and two are really a joke, so the lable "hardcore" is really pushing the boundaries of what it is.  With my self restrictions I have established a fun way for me without cruising through the game.  However, I know is not quite hardcore as it is.

 

After my 2or3 play throughs I knew right away that it was too easy and imposed those other restrictions.

 

I do have one easier aspect and that is Z block damage, becase well, eff'em, they shouldnt.

 

That is my .03.

[warmer]

27 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

Well, there seems clearly to be a language barrier between me and you @warmer One last try: It´s only about the description of the games default settings in the steam shop. It´s not about changing the game or it´s settings.

you are absolutely right, the game description clearly states, the "default settings" are hardcore. Thank you for clarifying it with such precision.

[Roland]

35 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

It´s only about the description of the games default settings in the steam shop.

Why must the description be limited to the default settings? Did you know that based on real feedback, the devs decided to lower default to adventurer from nomad because so many people were rage quitting and calling the game impossible but also unwilling to turn down the difficulty. Once the change was made the default version seemed much more accessible to new players. 
 

It seems that gamer ego makes it so that gamers will never turn down the difficulty but they will turn it up. So we could make 25% loot the default and then make easier settings from there or we can have the default be where it is at and allow people to change the settings to 25% for a tougher survival experience. All of those settings are part of the game and not just the one starting setting that developers choose as default. 
 

But even the current default is tougher than other games most people are used to playing. I know you can’t imagine anyone having a hard time surviving in what you consider a cakewalk of a game. That’s where the real disconnect is in this conversation: lack of perspective of any viewpoint but your own.

 

You’re trying to make “hardcore” out to be some technical jargon of the industry. It’s not. 
 

35 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

But well i am not surprised you take that route in the discussion now, seen that too many times already that if you can´t convince someone, that you try to question the motivation of a post, no matter how clear the actual intention is.

Man you have me pegged as all kinds of nefarious today. That is absolutely not what I was doing. I didn’t know you had given up on pushing the game to change. Especially after you agreed and liked the suggested changes that Jost posted. <shrug> At any rate, I’m not trying to attack your motivation. I thought I understood it but I guess I was wrong. If your motivation is simply that you think the hardcore description should be removed with the game’s current and likely future state as it is then fine. I accept that. I disagree but I accept. 
 

I think Im done. It probably should be changed just based on who cares the most. Now, it’s just about getting the person who can change it to care…

[theFlu]

Modding? Sure, then I shall propose adding "And Goblins!!" to the description. Just mod em in, no biggy. Someone already did.

 

Settings? That's an actual "sure", you can count those in against the description. The biggest setting toward the "survival genre" is loot abundance for sure; but I think that slider is still pretty messed up, no? It'll give you a little scarcer experience, but you're still not going to really care about heat (doesn't really do much), water (infinite with one glass jar), food (chickens, rabbits, bob's boars.. ). Infection may take you if unlucky.

 

Would that be #hardcore_survival though; I'm not convinced. It's not that far off from at least an 'honest' survival game. Having a little more "urgent" survival issues, for a lot longer at the start of a game, would probably be enough for my judgement. At least spend the day one actually solving some survival issues.. figure out an actual shelter or risk hypothermia in the night. Figure out water soon or risk dehydration. Yeah, each thing happens, but when they do, they Do nothing. Preferably, if settings are being involved, have survival settings that can be made so harsh it will require at least a little, if not a lot of Luck to survive the survival aspects for a week.

 

But again, I'm not really bothered about it either way.

I'll keep telling myself that.

[Jost Amman]

3 hours ago, theFlu said:

Would that be #hardcore_survival though; I'm not convinced. It's not that far off from at least an 'honest' survival game. Having a little more "urgent" survival issues, for a lot longer at the start of a game, would probably be enough for my judgement. At least spend the day one actually solving some survival issues..

If most new players would find it too hard, TFP could use the same "protection time" they already used for weather and clothing.

Maybe you could be immune to hunger and thirst effects until you reach Level N?

 

6 hours ago, Roland said:

Man you have me pegged as all kinds of nefarious today. That is absolutely not what I was doing. I didn’t know you had given up on pushing the game to change. Especially after you agreed and liked the suggested changes that Jost posted. <shrug> At any rate, I’m not trying to attack your motivation. I thought I understood it but I guess I was wrong.

Actually, that was probably my fault... I saw the discussion was steering towards "hardcore gameplay" (which is much wider than "hardcore survival"), and I asked people to keep on-topic because my original post was about the store description.

 

But I don't mind a little bit of leeway on the topic, just please don't make it a full-on discussion about game difficulty in general. The issue is, that right now there are no settings in 7D2D that can really change the difficulty of the true survival part (hunger, thirst, temperature effects, injuries...).

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[theFlu]

8 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

If most new players would find it too hard, TFP could use the same "protection time" they already used for weather and clothing.

Maybe you could be immune to hunger and thirst effects until you reach Level N?

No problems for me there. Except it's boring. In line with the idea that people don't like lowering difficulty, maybe spawn people in with a glove item equipped: "Kiddy Gloves", "Disables all the nasty stuff!"

Take em off when you're ready