So, I built one them new fangled contraptions (crawler horde base).

[Rotor]

So, I built this gizmo 

 As I like the fact that there is not an elaborate set of traps to maintain.  I added a fall pit as a speed control.

 

I have now been introduced to two known glitches, one is tolerable, the other is a royal pain.

A. Some Zs will stand up through the blocks.  This is not a terrible issue, and can be dealt with by kneecapping them.

B.  Some Zs will fall through the base  blocks and get caught under concrete trying to get out. 

 

B is almost game breaking.  If you are lucky and time it, you might get a head shot while they try to dig out.  However, with smaller Zs all you see is flailing hands trying to dig.  Impossible to hit.  The blocks take damage.  

 

Now, I gave up and went on my merry way.  If I got 1k out from base camp will the Zs cease to exist?  Or are they going to dig out some day while I am asleep? :).

 

Double annoying, and only noticed by chance, if the block is plated, you can repair the plate damage.  However, by chance as I was checking previously repaired areas, the repair numbers came up as I passed a seam.  It took me a bit, but eventually I was able to line up the cursor just right, and ended up repairing the block behind the plating.

 

All that to say, hope that one is on top of the list.

[Crater Creator]

To answer your question, going a long distance away should not get rid of a zombie. It should despawn, but then respawn when you come back. However, zombies do naturally expire if enough time has passed, to catch cases like this where they're stuck somewhere and tying up space that another, more engaging zombie could be allocated to use.

 

Beyond this, I see a more glaring glitch with this base design.

C. The large majority of zombies get stuck in a pathing loop, where they cannot reach the player no matter how far they travel.

 

I'm not trying to play dumb. Obviously, that is the point of the base design. But I honestly do see this as a glitch/bug with the AI. I think it should be fixed, because the AI is failing to perform its essential purpose. If it's impossible for the zombies to reach the player in general - if the player attains unlimited safety for a limited amount of effort - then the challenge presented by the zombies cannot be brought into balance. The zombie's block damage, entity damage, hit points, etc. don't matter when they're stuck in a loop like this.

 

Full credit to you and to "Old Coot" for the originality to come up with and refine this base design. Funneling the zombies into crawling, in particular, I think is a novel idea. I haven't seen that before, and it gives the player a nice advantage. But the falling through the hole part is too powerful, in my opinion. I have nothing against you or other players that leverage this. But I find it regrettable that the game's AI thinks a path - with all static blocks and a player standing still, no less - will work, when it doesn't actually work. So I hope that TFP can address glitches A, B, and C.

[NekoPawtato]

1 hour ago, Rotor said:

B is almost game breaking.  If you are lucky and time it, you might get a head shot while they try to dig out.  However, with smaller Zs all you see is flailing hands trying to dig.  Impossible to hit.  The blocks take damage. 

Will explosives like pipe bombs or molotovs still damage them?

[pApA^LeGBa]

Zombies glitching trough blocks nearly messed up my hordenight a few times already. And i am not talking glitch base here. They had plenty of room to move and a clear direct path to me, no glitches/exploits used. Yet sometimes they simply glitched trough the floor they fell on and dug out a huge hole under my position. And ofc it was  a spider annoying me with their screaming the whole time i looted after the horde.

Edited August 28, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Rotor]

For what is worth I do get hit with vomit :).

 

and some do manage to make the jump.  So not sure is broke, is just hard.  Like the no ladder for the first two blocks but they eventually manage to stack up, it that broke as well?

 

all credit goes to @Old Coot

[RipClaw]

Zombies glitching through blocks is a phenomenon I've encountered in several POIs where zombies fall from the ceiling. Most recently in the loot room of a T2 Working Stiff. Some zombies were stuck under a shelf. 
 

[Rotor]

4 hours ago, NekoPawtato said:

Will explosives like pipe bombs or molotovs still damage them?

 

Did not try.  There were 3 of them in the same spot.  I managed to whack the lumberjack since his head stuck out.  However, the two schizo kids Zs only their hands would come through.

 

<quote>However, zombies do naturally expire if enough time has passed, to catch cases like this where they're stuck somewhere and tying up space that another, more engaging zombie could be allocated to use.</quote>

 

They must have expired as I was gone a good long while.  Now I wonder if there is a huge hole under base heh.

[Old Coot]

5 hours ago, Rotor said:

A. Some Zs will stand up through the blocks.  This is not a terrible issue, and can be dealt with by kneecapping them.

B.  Some Zs will fall through the base  blocks and get caught under concrete trying to get out. 

Rotor is correct on both A and B. 

 

On glitch A- this was not a big problem when I first came up with this crawler concept.  But it became more of a problem as Alpha 20 was updated!  At first (20.3) it was only cops that at times would stand up and vomit, now many of the zombie will stand up (esp. after being shot) and make the walk through blocks.  When you run a maxed-out horde night it becomes a very common occurrence.

 

B. This is a glitch that came up back in Alpha 18 when some Zombies would fall through the earth when they fell from a height.  This was corrected.  If I remember   correctly it came up again in A19 and the issue was resolved.   As pApA commented he has had problems with this glitch also.  I have also seen creators like Kage, Jawoodle, and Glock9 having issues with this glitch.  Glock9's was a classic, zombie went into crawler position (behind hatch) and came up half way on the other side.

 

C.  I cannot agree with the idea that it is a glitch/bug!  The idea that they need to get to a player for the AI to be balanced?  Why do we build horde bases?  TO keep zombies away from us.  So, with that reasoning to keep the AI in balance we just need to take a hit once in a while?  Isn't the rage/destroy mode part of the AI and when they can't reach you it is triggered? With any base design both the player and the base take damage, is the zombie not staying in balance?  I am not an expert in programming, so please explain.

 

[SylenThunder]

1 hour ago, Old Coot said:

C.  I cannot agree with the idea that it is a glitch/bug!  The idea that they need to get to a player for the AI to be balanced?  Why do we build horde bases?  TO keep zombies away from us.  So, with that reasoning to keep the AI in balance we just need to take a hit once in a while?  Isn't the rage/destroy mode part of the AI and when they can't reach you it is triggered? With any base design both the player and the base take damage, is the zombie not staying in balance?  I am not an expert in programming, so please explain.

The idea is that you can never be safe. You are always faced with a challenge. If you can build a base that defeats the AI, then the game is not succeeding at its core mechanics.

[Old Coot]

15 minutes ago, SylenThunder said:

The idea is that you can never be safe. You are always faced with a challenge. If you can build a base that defeats the AI, then the game is not succeeding at its core mechanics.

OK thank you, I understand what you're saying!  But what does this do to the AI when it's not succeeding?  Is this when the zombies go into a destroy all mod or just when they receive damage?  

[Rotor]

There is all kinds of builds where you are "safe" and dont employ crawler path.  As discussed in another thread there are even "safe" PoIs.  I guess in the end you can make demolishers explode on bullet contact regardless of shot?

 

Just allow me to XML them out :). 

 

Or make the cops puke while crawling?  I mean the zombies do bull their head when crawling.  But he would have to stop and then I shoot him.  I would probably XML them out as well since I dont care for them, but figure I give the game a fair try close to vanilla.  I only use 30 day no respawn to match no loot respawn and compass declutter mods.

 

Or we can go back to no crawlers (before my time I think) and just build top blocks and knee cap them.

 

All builds are designed to defeat the AI in some form or another.

 

I can get into a whizzing match based on the arguments I've read over the past months while learning the game.  It wont get us anywhere.

 

I cant say I feel "safe", I cant just sit there and wait them out.  There would eventually be enough damage to the defense tower, since none are dying in the corridor.  The corridor is croud control, just cheaper than electric fences (sorta, I got through a lot of 7.62).

 

I guess one fix is for the AI to ask the question what easier crawling or beating on concrete?  They do ask the question was is easier running through fences or beating on concrete?  I ran into that by mistake as posted in the other thread.  In the end they ended up dying as shot at them from above.  Is that a broken mechanic?  Beating on concrete to reach me 6 blocks high?  There are death towers out there that employ that concept.

 

Enough rambling.  

 

Best Regards.

 

 

[Rotor]

And the Zs can jump, but they fail to calculate half block vs full block?  I guess that is the glitch?  What I dont get is how some can make jump.  I just shoot them, so is not big deal, as they start beating on the wall.

[theFlu]

59 minutes ago, Rotor said:

They do ask the question was is easier running through fences or beating on concrete?

They kinda do, but what you describe as beating on concrete sounds like "Destroy Area" -mode; they'll choose that when they have "No Path At All". This may be confusing if you, for instance, have a staircase with spikes; the zeds won't "build" staircases to use, so if you block one with a badly placed spike, they will not find a path there => destroy everything.

 

They are able to break blocks to make a path for themselves as long as the path remains horizontal after the breakage, so they'll bust a wall, but not destroy a spike on stairs. Although, sometimes they just enjoy breaking every face-height block in a building anyway...

 

46 minutes ago, Rotor said:

And the Zs can jump, but they fail to calculate half block vs full block?  I guess that is the glitch? 

 

They can jump, but they don't really use that for pathing; they only jump if they can land on you (in hitting range of you). Half blocks are all kinds of odd as zeds can't decide if they can walk on them (they can, unless, "things", like two of them rotated in different directions as in your example) or "through" them (they can, if they happen to have a floor to walk on but, you know, they can walk on half blocks..)

Edited August 29, 2022 by theFlu (see edit history)

[Rotor]

So, they are trying to crawl over a gap they cant see because it is two half blocks?  I.e.  there is really a full gap there?

 

Would this glitch be consider the same as using the float base design?

 

So, we are saying that any time the zombies cant negotiate a path and are caught in a loop it is a glitchy non intended use of the game?

 

 

 

 

 

Old Coots is not an AFK base.  That is for sure.

 

 

[RipClaw]

8 hours ago, SylenThunder said:

If you can build a base that defeats the AI, then the game is not succeeding at its core mechanics.

We're talking about a game AI. This is a sequence of if-then decisions and nothing that can even begin to compete with the human mind. Therefore, it is a hopeless endeavor to try to build a foolproof AI. Game AIs usually defeat human opponents by having an unfair advantage such as greater numbers, more strength, more health, or some ability that the player does not have.

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[theFlu]

10 hours ago, Rotor said:

zombies cant negotiate a path and are caught in a loop it is a glitchy non intended use of the game

Yup, pretty much. The AI needs to be able to manage so it can then be constrained to be something zombielike.

 

6 hours ago, RipClaw said:

This is a sequence of if-then decisions and nothing that can even begin to compete with the human mind.

Go talk to something like OpenAI Five. Human brain beats AI opponents with pure processing power, but there's some pretty damn good AIs out there by now. Not going to appear in 7dtd of course, here the AI will never be aiming to beat us, just have the zeds eat us. It's an AI that is trying to become an actor and "act like a zed" for us to enjoy. Knowing the difference between actions that can't succeed, fail or fail spectacularly would be great.. then you could have spectacular fails sprinkled in the masses.

 

TFP aren't trying to create a perfect AI to "win" over the players, they're trying to make one to entertain us with.

[Rotor]

Zombie like.  

 

Hehe.

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

Yup, pretty much. The AI needs to be able to manage so it can then be constrained to be something zombielike.

I don't think the Fun Pimps will limit the AI any further. They have always liked to use their own definition of what a zombie is and what it can do.

 

22 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Go talk to something like OpenAI Five. Human brain beats AI opponents with pure processing power, but there's some pretty damn good AIs out there by now.

These are specialized AIs. And if you look at the training effort and the required infrastructure, you understand why they won't appear in games anytime soon.

 

42 minutes ago, theFlu said:

TFP aren't trying to create a perfect AI to "win" over the players, they're trying to make one to entertain us with.

Well, for me it's very entertaining to watch zombies running in circles. 😉

 

I don't use such loop bases myself, but I don't mind if someone does.

 

It's a shame that we are so limited by the electrical system when it comes to automating horde bases. If I at least had something like Minecraft, I could build a factory that would turn a zombie horde into mincemeat without me having to lift a finger. And the factory would also automatically collect the loot.

 

 

[Rotor]

Forget the loop for a minute, what about the stump base?  They Jump on stump, try to make second and fall, some of them do negotiate the next stump.  Like some (very few) make the jump on the op base.  Is the stump base a loop?

 

If the loop is broken by adding a blade trap, that is okay?  Or just the turret that knocks them off instead of them falling off that is okay?

 

Because we're not talking much of a change and the results will be almost identical.

[theFlu]

3 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

These are specialized AIs. And if you look at the training effort and the required infrastructure, you understand why they won't appear in games anytime soon.

We do agree, that's why the comparison in processing power; it takes something like 15-20 years to train a human brain to it's peak, an OpenAI can be trained quite fast in comparison due to being specialized and suitably parallelizable. But my point with that was mostly to point at the different type of AI required here;

 

7 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Well, for me it's very entertaining to watch zombies running in circles. 😉

Indeed, I too enjoy a well executed plan to confuse an AI and watching the fruits of that; sadly in this case it's a complete solution to the horde part of the game. Once solved, the hordes are no longer an actual threat. That pretty effectively kills the game. An AI that can at the very least be a threat even while quite confused would return some of that. The less it fails to easy pathing tricks, the better.

[Rotor]

32 minutes ago, theFlu said:

 parallelizable.

 

I will admit, I had to look that one up.

[theFlu]

27 minutes ago, Rotor said:

I will admit, I had to look that one up.

I'll admit, I just kinda hoped it's a word...

[Pernicious]

6 hours ago, RipClaw said:

 

These are specialized AIs. And if you look at the training effort and the required infrastructure, you understand why they won't appear in games anytime soon.

 

Most people are unaware that in many models, only the training requires heavy infrastructure. Unless the task requires continuous learning, the trained AI doesn't require any more compute power than comparable programs.

 

You're aware for example, that a path finding GPS is technically an AI? It has been pretrained on how to find an efficient path, but if you tell it to find an alternate path/avoid tolls/avoid congestion etc, it's not retrained. It simply computes the next lowest cost path.  So what used to require sending the location and destination back to a powerful server, can now be done on a phone or low powered $50 offline GPS.

[Rotor]

Two quick notes:

 

As suggested above the molotov helped.

 

As explained one of them zombies did not appear to despawn, next day I had a mini cave and dug out hole :/.

 

I lied, a third note.  As long as they keep falling through blocks, I dont feel bad at all about the loop.  I will consider it even match.