Is Stealth play viable in late game?

[Rotor]

3 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

 (and arguably why FIFA gets it more right).  Stealth cannot and should not be able to be 100% effective in all situations, ever.
 

 

How does one use Stealth in a Soccer game?

[8_Hussars]

21 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Untelevised factors make it feel random, even if it isnt.

Take light for example.
If you have a 0 stelathmeter and still get caught with no explanation of what happened... what are you supposed to think as the player?
What did you do wrong? What could you do better next time?

Yes the unknown mechanics makes it feel somewhat random.  The video you linked in the other thread expresses players feelings and expectations quite well.

From my perspective; these are not unknown mechanics even if there are no details.  Further, If a player accepts that there is a chance to fail a stealth check regardless of how perked the player is, then I find it easy to accept that I failed the stealth check (however small a chance it was) and did nothing wrong.  If stealth works successfully near 100% (?) of the time; notwithstanding the designated trigger volumes, I feel that is good balance.  
 

11 minutes ago, Rotor said:

How does one use Stealth in a Soccer game?

I was linking back to Viktoriusiii's two soccer examples;  one game with no RNG that he preferred and one with RNG which he did not.  

Why does this forum merge reply's that are distinct.?

Edited July 23, 2022 by 8_Hussars
merged replies (see edit history)

[Maharin]

3 hours ago, Rotor said:

 

How does one use Stealth in a Soccer game?

 

If you close your eyes then the other players can't see you.

[Rotor]

43 minutes ago, Maharin said:

 

If you close your eyes then the other players can't see you.

 

I do that all the time at work, but the RnGeezus does a /bossWalkby roll 25% of the time.

[Maharin]

1 hour ago, Rotor said:

 

I do that all the time at work, but the RnGeezus does a /bossWalkby roll 25% of the time.

 

The solution to your problem is to drink copious amounts of alcohol at work.  Remember to save some for your boss.

[Apocalyptical Survivor]

I'm still in early game, level 51, but I have to say that stealth play has been hella fun thus far. Walking into a room full of sleeping zeds and taking them out one by one without waking any of them, is such a different playstyle than what I've been previously used to, it's really a refreshing change. Slower gameplay, kind of the difference between Rainbow Six vs. Borderlands, but very rewarding.

 

Going stealth has caused me to learn a lot about heatmaps and how they affect zombie spawning. This game has some serious depth.

[enkephalin07]

I'm probably only mid-game and not heavily reliant on stealth, but I get the impression that there are wake-up triggers that disregard stats and RNG. On the other hand I find that walking normal pace with stealth boots and advanced mufflers, axing rubbish, is occasionally sufficient to get cheap one-shots on sleepers.

 

One reason I don't get into stealth in POIs is that the layout is so linear that it feels like a pipe-shooter, so I just run&gun it.  You don't get the suspenseful exploration of a wide open environment that stealth games typically feature, so you just feel like you're crawling along a track that you could be running.

[BFT2020]

Some things to remember:

• Auto-wakeup does not automatically mean that you are spotted
• Stealth players can disengage to get the Z's to lose interest.  In fact, From the Shadows decreases the time that they will actively search
  • Backtracking is a common tactic I use as a stealth player - Nobody said we have to kill the Z's right away
• At higher level POIs, silenced pistols and SMGs are highly recommended.  Compound bows and crossbows are still very viable in T5 POIs if you are maxing out your stealth perks
• If you are 100% into efficiency, then stealth play is not for you.
• If you are wearing heavy armor, then stealth play is not for you - you can still can hidden strikes, but you are geared more towards run and gun playing

 

[Rotor]

43 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Some things to remember:

• If you are wearing heavy armor, then stealth play is not for you -

 

 

Padded armor is dabomb.  Very soft on the derrier when sitting on a perch hunting.

[Ramethzer0]

On 7/22/2022 at 4:14 PM, Viktoriusiii said:

I'd agree if there wasn't a single factor

I always say:
Don't punish the player for doing the right thing.

Stealth NEEDS to be able to work perfectly.
It is a mechanic. A mechanic can not be random (if its not a specific feature of said mechanic).
 

 

Well, let me ask you this two parter, in relation to your thoughts.

1.  What exactly is the Right'(tm) thing?

2.  Are you actually being punished?

 

Stealth doesn't need to work perfectly.  There are too many factors to take into consideration when determining the outcome, and those too are also 'mechanics', and just because you felt like you were just performing the play style doesn't mean you get to evade all negative outcomes.   That's not only unrealistic, but also would make the game just plain boring if 7Days turned into a zombie sniping simulator.   There are app games for your phone if you want that sort of thing.

[meganoth]

On 7/22/2022 at 9:35 PM, Viktoriusiii said:

This summarizes everything wrong with stealth.
"hey you know that specialization that oyu took, that is absolutely useless in combat?
Yea its only going to work like 70% of the time and otherwise force you into combat. Also good lcuk on hordenights "

 

Lets think of a typical RPG game. Someone specializes in diplomacy and tries to solve quests through deals instead of shooting at the problem. In most RPGs there is still a random roll involved and even with the best diplomacy you might fail a quest. And sometimes that starts combat (often with the option to still complete the quest), sometimes that simply fails the quest.

 

 

[Viktoriusiii]

11 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

Well, let me ask you this two parter, in relation to your thoughts.

1.  What exactly is the Right'(tm) thing?

Doing what the game teaches you.
Staying out of range.
Sneaking. Keeping the stealthbar low.
Not making noise (papers, hitting stuff, looting)
Usign silent weapons.

11 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

2.  Are you actually being punished?

If the only way to clear a POI is taken away from me because I chose to skill in stealth instead of guns? Yes.

11 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

Stealth doesn't need to work perfectly.  There are too many factors to take into consideration when determining the outcome, and those too are also 'mechanics', and just because you felt like you were just performing the play style doesn't mean you get to evade all negative outcomes.   That's not only unrealistic, but also would make the game just plain boring if 7Days turned into a zombie sniping simulator.   There are app games for your phone if you want that sort of thing.

But this isn't a war simulator. Simple mechanics work best. If games with AI were to try and emulate "realistic" behaviour, nobody would play them.

Imagine if in splinter cell enemies would randomly turn around. You would need to quicksave so often, it would ruin the game.
Stealth needs to be predictable, or its not fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay-5g36oFfc&list=PLc38fcMFcV_s8CEnf_j1ZOu-UCTEXRAfl
(next 3 videos)

Yes they actually want you to fight. But they do not give you the tools to do so.
I can't fight hordes of zombies with a bow (especially lategame).

There is no gameplay reason otehr than "we want to player to engage with zombies" for unpredictable wake-up!

And that is a valid reason. But they don't give you any tools to do so.
That is the huge drawback of this "attribute-skillsystem".
You can only do one at a time (at least efficiently), so if you perk into something, you are good at that thing, nothing else.
You have to chose if you want to eat... oh well this is off topic.

Point is:
Sure you can use an AK without any perks in it.
But if you can survive without perks, perks are useless. If you need perks, then you are f***ed if you go into stealth.

Either way it is a fundamentally broken system right now.

You can have fun. 100%. It is a great game. But these systems work against each other, not with one another.





PS: My only point is this:
If the player is skilled enough, he should theoreticially avoid everything.
Make it hard. Make it so hard that it is nearly impossible to do.

But a good player needs to be able to "avoid" more that a bad one.
But right now, normal stealth is so easy, you can sneak right next to zombies without worry... and auto-wakeup have nothing to do with skill... so low skill and high skill have more or less the same outcome.
 

2 minutes ago, meganoth said:

and even with the best diplomacy you might fail a quest.

Then the game is broken and needs to be fixed.
IF you do everything right and a random roll still f***s you over, the game punishes the player, not the character.
 

Name me one RPG where with ideal play you can still fail. Obviously there might be some... but none that I ever played and I played A LOT!!!

And if that game makes you fail, is it reasonable?
Like did you kill the kings daughter?
Or is it "meh we just want to to fight lol! What? You put all your points in diplomacy and can'T fight? Well too bad haha!"

[meganoth]

On 7/22/2022 at 12:20 AM, Viktoriusiii said:

I am unsure of what to think, since a lot of people here say its great...
but I haven't seen any changes inthe logs since I last played... and it was borderline unplayable.

 

Balancing changes often don't appear in the logs.

 

I play stealth in A20 and in daytime stealth fails quite often, you still get lots of free kills. At night it is fairly dependable.

 

On 7/22/2022 at 12:20 AM, Viktoriusiii said:

There were hwole discussions (two of those started by me) around the auto-wake-up.

As a long LONG stealth player (A8) this is the first alpha where I just left stealth behind. If 50% of rooms wake up anyways and even crossbows are triggering wakeups... I just feel better having an actual weapon to fight.

 

[meganoth]

16 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Doing what the game teaches you.
Staying out of range.
Sneaking. Keeping the stealthbar low.
Not making noise (papers, hitting stuff, looting)
Usign silent weapons.

If the only way to clear a POI is taken away from me because I chose to skill in stealth instead of guns? Yes.

But this isn't a war simulator. Simple mechanics work best. If games with AI were to try and emulate "realistic" behaviour, nobody would play them.

Imagine if in splinter cell enemies would randomly turn around. You would need to quicksave so often, it would ruin the game.
Stealth needs to be predictable, or its not fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay-5g36oFfc&list=PLc38fcMFcV_s8CEnf_j1ZOu-UCTEXRAfl
(next 3 videos)

Yes they actually want you to fight. But they do not give you the tools to do so.
I can't fight hordes of zombies with a bow (especially lategame).

There is no gameplay reason otehr than "we want to player to engage with zombies" for unpredictable wake-up!

And that is a valid reason. But they don't give you any tools to do so.
That is the huge drawback of this "attribute-skillsystem".
You can only do one at a time (at least efficiently), so if you perk into something, you are good at that thing, nothing else.
You have to chose if you want to eat... oh well this is off topic.

Point is:
Sure you can use an AK without any perks in it.
But if you can survive without perks, perks are useless. If you need perks, then you are f***ed if you go into stealth.

 

You don't go into stealth in this game. You go into agility, with its own gun arsenal. You don't need an AK. There is a reason "run and gun" is in the agility tree.

 

16 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

 

 

 

Either way it is a fundamentally broken system right now.

You can have fun. 100%. It is a great game. But these systems work against each other, not with one another.





PS: My only point is this:
If the player is skilled enough, he should theoreticially avoid everything.
Make it hard. Make it so hard that it is nearly impossible to do.

But a good player needs to be able to "avoid" more that a bad one.
But right now, normal stealth is so easy, you can sneak right next to zombies without worry... and auto-wakeup have nothing to do with skill... so low skill and high skill have more or less the same outcome.
 

Then the game is broken and needs to be fixed.
IF you do everything right and a random roll still f***s you over, the game punishes the player, not the character.

 

It seems you have never played pen&paper RPG.

 

16 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

 

 

 

Name me one RPG where with ideal play you can still fail. Obviously there might be some... but none that I ever played and I played A LOT!!!

 

Seriously? All AD&D and pathfinder games fail a diplomacy roll when you roll a 1.

 

Disco Elysium even makes it fun and a principle of its replayability to fail checks.

 

16 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

And if that game makes you fail, is it reasonable?
Like did you kill the kings daughter?
Or is it "meh we just want to to fight lol! What? You put all your points in diplomacy and can'T fight? Well too bad haha!"

 

Usually party-based games make it balanced by having just one diplomatic character among others who can fight, sometimes there are advantages to diplomacy that outweigh the lost fighting capability.

 

The main quest naturally does never fail even if you fail in the diplomatic solution, either combat resolves it eventually or you just get a less advantageous resolution.

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Viktoriusiii]

41 minutes ago, meganoth said:

You don't go into stealth in this game. You go into agility, with its own gun arsenal. You don't need an AK. There is a reason "run and gun" is in the agility tree.

"run and gun" in traprooms? But okay... sure.
But can you do hordenight with only pistols?
Because even if I grant you that, this only means that you are slower, still need ammo (even though less, granted), don't have safety AND it is useless on hordenights.

41 minutes ago, meganoth said:

It seems you have never played pen&paper RPG.

I do. And you seemingly don't understand the difference between a PC game and a P&P story telling adventure.

41 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Seriously? All AD&D and pathfinder games fail a diplomacy roll when you roll a 1.

Actually that is incorrect. Autocrits/Fails are a houserule... at least in D&D. But yes, in the german P&P "The dark Eye" you are actually correct.
But as I said "story telling cooperative adventure" =/= PC game.

41 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Disco Elysium even makes it fun and a principle of its replayability to fail checks.

Don't know the game... sorry. But yes it is also a dicebased game. If the game is ABOUT randomness as a feature, sure. It can be good. But 7D2D isn't.

 

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

"run and gun" in traprooms? But okay... sure.

That's why it's best to always have an escape route. That's where "Run and Gun" then shows its strength.

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

But can you do hordenight with only pistols?

You can also do horde nights with the crossbow if you have the right ammo and the right base. Electric fences and explosive bolts are an effective combination.

This also works in principle with pistols. You can also use bars instead of electric fences or a combination of both. This is an obstacle for the zombies, but you can shoot through it.

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

"run and gun" in traprooms? But okay... sure.

 

As if this game were full of trap rooms. Actually the trap room in higashi or dishong is big enough to run around and kill them with pistol/magnum/vulture/mp5. You just should avoid getting cornered, that can get you killed even with a shotgun I think.

 

PS: I always have a few ladders on my belt, in case I have to get out of reach of zombies. A strategie that works for most trap rooms, place a ladder high on the wall, then jump on it.

 

If I have to drop down into a room I usually place the ladder first, then drop down (whatever build I'm playing)

 

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

But can you do hordenight with only pistols?

 

Yes. Playing agility I always do that (pistols, magnum, mp5 and vulture depending on the progress)

 

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Because even if I grant you that, this only means that you are slower, still need ammo (even though less, granted), don't have safety AND it is useless on hordenights.

 

I didn't say the game is completely balanced. PER, INT and AGI are more difficult to play as they are not straightforward shooter builds. But I have no problem playing the game as AGI player and I might even die less playing AGI than STR. Because even though most fights with a STR character are very easy, but then occassionally I forget to reload or miss some shots, magazine is empty and I get cornered. Also AGI almost always gives you the option to run away from anything, but with all other builds, even if you notice that it gets hairy, you have to fight it out, retreating often isn't an option.

 

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

I do. And you seemingly don't understand the difference between a PC game and a P&P story telling adventure.

 

A distinction I don't see in this case. A p&p RPG game has much of the same constraints and goals as a computer RPG game.

 

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Actually that is incorrect. Autocrits/Fails are a houserule... at least in D&D. But yes, in the german P&P "The dark Eye" you are actually correct.

 

Right, the autofail/autohit is only in attack rolls. I think this is even the second time I made this mistake.

 

Anyway, a less apparent example are the normal skill checks as well. A character below maybe level 12 does not have even one skill high enough (i.e. with +20) to always succeed any skill check, including diplomacy. It is in the nature of an RPG to have skill checks with the chance to fail, otherwise why roll the dice at all?

 

So even with "ideal play" your level-7 character will always have a very good chance to fail his diplomacy (or any other skill) roll, all the time. And this is true for most RPGs, whether p&p or computer.

 

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

But as I said "story telling cooperative adventure" =/= PC game.

 

What then are "Baldur's Gate" and "Planescape Torment" ? Not PC games?

 

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Don't know the game... sorry. But yes it is also a dicebased game. If the game is ABOUT randomness as a feature, sure. It can be good. But 7D2D isn't.

 

 

Is Baldur's Gate a game ABOUT randomness?

 

And is 7D2D a deterministic game? Weeell, you may not have noticed, but there is an awful lot of randomness in 7D2D 😉

 

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

But can you do hordenight with only pistols?

 

If you are using the default settings, horde night is 6 hours long (22:00 to 4:00) every 7 days.  That is literally just 3.6% of game time for 1 week.  Stealth is a viable option for the remaining 96.4% of the time.

 

Quote

"run and gun" in traprooms? But okay... sure.

 

RipClaw said it best.  Don't just drop down into a room without preparation.  For me, stealth play is planning ahead, trying to figure out what I am getting into and what I got behind me.  Even after 3000 hours, the new POIs mean I have to stop and pause for a second.  All of the doors locked?  Nope, this one on the side is not.  If I go into this room, how do I escape?  Do I need to prep a frame block to be able to jump over that fence or is my parkour high enough I can simply jump straight over?  Do I need to create an escape path or do I see the key toggle close by so I can trigger it right away?  If I am about to drop in any area, I check for zombies first; and if they are not there, I find my escape route.

[ElDudorino]

1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:

 

If you are using the default settings, horde night is 6 hours long (22:00 to 4:00) every 7 days.  That is literally just 3.6% of game time for 1 week.  Stealth is a viable option for the remaining 96.4% of the time.

 

That's not a very compelling argument. Stealth works fine for trivial stuff, it just isn't usable for the main challenge of the game.

 

If it required less investment it might seem more worthwhile because you could dip into it the way one might dip into farming. As it is, you kinda have to gimp yourself where it matters most.

 

About diplomacy checks failing, I feel like that exists in most older RPGs. Fallout, Morrowind, Dark Sun, and many more. Not my favorite mechanic but it's not without precedent.

[meganoth]

31 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:

 

That's not a very compelling argument. Stealth works fine for trivial stuff, it just isn't usable for the main challenge of the game.

 

If it required less investment it might seem more worthwhile because you could dip into it the way one might dip into farming. As it is, you kinda have to gimp yourself where it matters most.

 

Well, then consider any two perks in Fortitude besides the gun and melee perks and tell me if you get as much from them as you get from the two stealth perks? Naturally this his very subjective, but I would pick those two stealth perks every time. 

 

So AGI has guns that are in power somewhere between INT and FOR and on par with PER.

 

But then only AGI allows you to increase the damage potential of all AGI weapons in specific circumstances (i.e. shooting from stealth) massively, just not on horde nights. Neither PER nor FOR have that capability, only INT is also able to sort of boost its own weapons through using other weapons at the same time (having its hands free)

 

31 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:

 

About diplomacy checks failing, I feel like that exists in most older RPGs. Fallout, Morrowind, Dark Sun, and many more. Not my favorite mechanic but it's not without precedent.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

3 minutes ago, meganoth said:

So AGI has guns that are in power somewhere between INT and FOR and on par with PER.

If scrap turrets weren't so hardlocked, INT > every other perk.
No contest Better building and stuff AND highest damage. Only hordenights are a bit harder.

[BFT2020]

46 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:

 

That's not a very compelling argument. Stealth works fine for trivial stuff, it just isn't usable for the main challenge of the game.

 

 

How so?  Are there no indirect benefits for horde night from using stealth during the remaining 96% of the game?  Everyone plays differently, but here are the benefits I see by using stealth during the non-bloodmoon time:

 

• Less hits so less use of medical items
• Less hits so less damage to armor
• Use of arrows / bolts / knives / 9mm weapons rather than the other firearms so ammo conservation of 44 cal, shotgun shells, and 7.62

Those come off the top of my mind sitting here at work.  These might not be reasons for others, but for someone like me, it is a great reason (plus I like the challenge) to do stealth the 96% other time of the game.  I don't have to setup ammo producing factories, I don't have to go out and gather large amounts of nitrate / coal to mass produced gunpowder.  I see what I can get by just using what I salvage on my runs into the various POIs and purchase from the traders.  Some playthroughs it is weeks before I find the desert (so no mass harvesting aloe cream) so the only medical items I have are typically what I find in loot (or buy but I tend to hold off on that if possible).

 

It's also no different than the other perks that don't directly affect the Bloodmoon night, but do have indirect benefits that you benefit from during the workup to that specific time of the week - lockpicking, animal tracking, treasure hunting, salvage operations, Master Chef, Miner 69r, motherlode, Huntsman, Living off the land, Slow Metabolism, Better Barter, Daring Adventurer, Physician, Advanced Engineering, Grease Monkey.

 

I think that part of the issue is that for some people, if there is no direct benefit from using a perk during horde night, then there is no value to it - even though horde night is less than 4% of the gameplay.

[ElDudorino]

Yeah, to be fair, I consider most of those garbage perks other than Daring Adventurer which is absurdly overpowered, Better Barter which is very strong and Miner 69er which is a huge efficiency win that makes progress through much of the game faster. More than half the skills in the game I consider wasted points. I mean, animal tracking? Am I not already suffocating from being crushed beneath my stacks on stacks on stacks of steaks?

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

If scrap turrets weren't so hardlocked, INT > every other perk.
No contest Better building and stuff AND highest damage. Only hordenights are a bit harder.

 

Which turrets are scrap turrets and what is "hardlocked" in this context?

 

[Viktoriusiii]

9 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Which turrets are scrap turrets and what is "hardlocked" in this context?

the... turrets... that... shoot... metal scrap? :'D
https://7daystodie.fandom.com/wiki/Robotic_Turret

And they are hardlocked behind a recipe that is so rare that in two games of a total of 90 days, I only found it once.
If you try and build an INT build you are completely f***ed

Also I meant CC (crowd control, as they knock down so many zombies!)

Edited July 25, 2022 by Viktoriusiii (see edit history)