anyone know what this guys talking about?

[SURVIVE]

Was reading into how to stop steam from doing certain things it shouldn't and found this. whats this guy talking about 7days at the end? full page  https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/1744512174760150026/

 

Originally posted by isomorphic_projection:

Originally posted by Brujeira:

That’s unfortunate as you gave Valve legally binding permission to update Steam related files on your machine as and when they find it necessary - it’s in the SSA.You can only see and read the change after a update. Updates you get, when you start steam. So they always sneak in the new legal standards.

Not to mention a contract is often considered to not be legally binding if one party holds all the negotiating power and the other party either gets to agree to the demands of the stronger party or not. Being unable to negotiate even the slightest aspects of the agreement is the exact situation these companies put us in. Either agree to their demands or not-no negotiating and sometimes the “agreements” are thrust upon you only AFTER you get what you want. (7 Days to Die is in my opinion the biggest offender of this).

[Matt115]

11 minutes ago, SURVIVE said:

Was reading into how to stop steam from doing certain things it shouldn't and found this. whats this guy talking about 7days at the end? full page  https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/1744512174760150026/

 

Originally posted by isomorphic_projection:

Originally posted by Brujeira:

That’s unfortunate as you gave Valve legally binding permission to update Steam related files on your machine as and when they find it necessary - it’s in the SSA.You can only see and read the change after a update. Updates you get, when you start steam. So they always sneak in the new legal standards.

Not to mention a contract is often considered to not be legally binding if one party holds all the negotiating power and the other party either gets to agree to the demands of the stronger party or not. Being unable to negotiate even the slightest aspects of the agreement is the exact situation these companies put us in. Either agree to their demands or not-no negotiating and sometimes the “agreements” are thrust upon you only AFTER you get what you want. (7 Days to Die is in my opinion the biggest offender of this).

Looking how old and dead this topic he mean "conspiracy theory" of some type

[theFlu]

No idea how that relates to 7dtd; the whole thread is pretty wild. Either the OP fails to apply some "layer of ownership" or his OS is completely failing at rights management.. I'd guess the former, but who knows.

[Lenny Lettuce Lips]

Unsure without expansion, but I'm willing to dig. 

 

I frequently read and tear apart ToS, EULA, privacy policy and those types of written agreements. He's half right, in that when you have your library on Steam, you're essentially their bish. You do not own these games. You license them. If Steam were to change hands or implement something the public found egregious, you'd lose your whole library as a result of uninstalling Steam in protest. It's due to the common acceptance of this practice that it's gone out of the conversation. No one cares, they just click "okay" or "agree" to get what they want and move on. 

 

Days Gone comes to mind. It includes the agreement to let it essentially install a keylogger as well as monitor your cookies, web traffic and IP. For a single player game. It has other holes I personally don't like, but many others don't mind. There are many other such cases. 

 

Steam's legal agreement is airtight in that they "reserve" the right to change the rules without notice at any time. The only way to change that would be through public knowledge and a cultural disapproval of this practice, but no one cares, they just want their games. 

 

The only way to "beat" that system with Steam would be to have a downloaded copy of the games you liked, that didn't require online access either for gameplay (like CSGO) or alwaysonline DRM, then airgap your PC or have a separate rig just for your games. I miss CDs, bros...

 

Gonna dig a bit and update, this has my curiosity. 

[Lenny Lettuce Lips]

Update 1:

Hot take from user RiO makes a good point. 

 

They are breaching the Windows security model by resetting file permissions.

If a user with administrative permissions takes away the permission to modify or delete a file; as well as the permission to alter permissions; then the only way Steam can reset those permissions, is by still having a service running with full system-level permissions which can unlock the permissions and allow modification.

This is still part of the same ramshackle security-hole-waiting-to-be-found turd called "Steam Client Service" that almost got Valve in hot water when a security researcher who was denied entry to Valve's bug bounty program, went rogue and published how the way the service manipulated registry keys could allow arbitrary malicious code to exploit Steam to run any software under the SYSTEM account which has full systems permission. (And could in fact have been facilitating this as far back as 2015, if not earlier.)

SYSTEM is basically the lowest, most-strict security level at which the OS kernel itself as well as highly sensitive stuff like anti-virus solutions do their work. Any malicious software gets in there and your system is screwed. (Look up what a rootkit is.)

Valve has absolutely zero business using it the way that they are, but they still do. Almost surely because it makes life easier for them to do things this way, rather than the proper way following OS guidelines

 

Source is verified! Link here. This is Steam critical, not related to TfP. Still, recommended read. 

 

P.S. this thread is a good read. Models my point that we can't accept intrusions on privacy for convenience at all. Smart kids in there. 

 

User Marikhen with the last post makes the best point:

 

Consider this. Through accident or intent a Steam file becomes a valid target or vector for malicious software and that this situation can be prevented by altering security permissions.

Under the SSA Valve holds the user responsible for the security of their own computer which means the user has an obligation to alter the appropriate security permissions in order to prevent that file, regardless of whether or not it's part of Steam, from becoming a security issue.

Then Steam comes along, ignores all that you've done to preserve system security, and potentially reopens your PC to influence by malicious software. At this point should the file be utilized by or be a host to malicious software Valve can claim zero responsibility because their software is provided as-is and all responsibility for the security of your computer is yours, even though they just violated your best faith efforts to attend to that responsibility.

I don't claim that such a scenario would be likely. Likewise I'm not trying to suggest that a simple .css file could lead to something like Steam stealing all your locally stored passwords, installing dozens of ransomeware programs, and then reformatting half your drives.

My point is simply that this practice is contrary to computer security and is in contradiction with the SSA's assigning of computer security to the computer user/owner because Steam can, and will, ignore users' attempts to secure their computer if it determines that there is a need to do so.

 

I have not found a line of ToS or EULA nor privacy policy related to TfP yet. Steam page is devoid, their website is also empty. Dunno if anything changed or what. Still digging.

EDIT: their website related to the game. Their website still asks for cookies. Otherwise fine. Also functions fine without them. Doesn't even need scripts! Unless you want to see media.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Lenny Lettuce Lips (see edit history)

[SylenThunder]

15 hours ago, Lenny Lettuce Lips said:

I have not found a line of ToS or EULA nor privacy policy related to TfP yet.

You can find it in the Support section of the main website.

Official Privacy Policy

Official EULA

 Official Video Policy

 

EDIT: There is also a link on the Steam Store page.

Requires agreement to a 3rd-party EULA

7 Days to Die EULA

Edited May 6, 2022 by SylenThunder (see edit history)

[Lenny Lettuce Lips]

4 hours ago, SylenThunder said:

You can find it in the Support section of the main website.

Official Privacy Policy

Official EULA

 Official Video Policy

 

EDIT: There is also a link on the Steam Store page.

Requires agreement to a 3rd-party EULA

7 Days to Die EULA

Thank you sir, it was late and I was waffling between that initial post, a crying baby in my arms and my own digging. Will report back, gonna dive in. 

[Lenny Lettuce Lips]

This line stands out to me, if only due to verbage. From the 3rd party EULA, so if I understand, this is provided by TfP, not Steam. 

 

TECHNICAL PROTECTIONS. The Software may include measures to control access to the Software, control access to certain features or content, prevent unauthorized copies, or otherwise attempt to prevent anyone from exceeding the limited rights and licenses granted under this Agreement. If the Software permits access to Special Features, only one copy of the Software may access those features at one time. Additional terms and registration may be required to access online services and to download Software updates and patches. Only Software subject to a valid license can be used to access online services, including downloading updates and patches. You may not interfere with such access control measures or attempt to disable or circumvent such security features. If you disable or otherwise tamper with the technical protection measures, the Software will not function properly.

 

What stands out is "The Software may include measures..." which is open to interpretation and serves as a legal out, should anything go awry and those "measures" can be covered.

 

INTERNET CONNECTION. The Software will require an internet connection to access internet-based features, authenticate the Software, or perform other functions. In order for certain features of the Software to operate properly, you may be required to have and maintain (a) an adequate internet connection and/or (b) a valid and active account with an online service as set forth in the Software documentation, including but not limited to third-party gaming platform, Licensor or a Licensor affiliate. If you do not maintain such accounts, then certain features of the Software may not operate or may cease to function properly, either in whole or in part.

 

This means there's DRM, but they've been clearly lax with it as mods that require you to turn of EAC don't trigger anything to get you flagged or banned, so long as that's all you do. Points to TfP there. As far as the rest of that document reads, it's a simple copypasta from any other and nothing triggers red flags for myself. I wouldn't be surprised if it was lifted from one and replaced the terms with "software" but it's fine. Get's a solid B from me. 

 

The EULA reads identical, in fact it feels like a direct copy darn near. 

 

In closing, I don't understand what the poster in that forum meant by naming 7 Days as being any worse than say even Fortnight. Feels strange, or maybe they were being more critical than usual? Dunno, but read the links the mod provided for your own opinion. In my opinion they read like any other. I don't get the impression there's much concern. 

[Lenny Lettuce Lips]

On 5/5/2022 at 11:23 AM, Matt115 said:

Looking how old and dead this topic he mean "conspiracy theory" of some type

There's no "conspiracy".  My guess is that he read something a little too close and got irate under the other conditions he'd agreed to via Steam. Steam's conditions are a little pervase and leave no room for argument nor privacy. I'd recommend reading their documents. 

Companies have shown they use these loopholes time and time again. I haven't heard about anything linking back to Steam directly, but that doesn't mean it isn't or couldn't happen. Without legal protection through our agreement, it makes sense to be wary. 

[Roland]

“The software may include measures to control access…”

 

This has to do with getting a ban through either EAC or VAC. Before you do something cheaty there is no flag activated on your game. After you get caught doing something cheaty the software includes a flag that limits access. 
 

An EAC flag will prevent you from accessing EAC enabled servers but you can still play solo or join non EAC servers. 
 

A VAC flag prevents you from using the software at all. You have to repurchase it under a different account. 
 

It’s MAY because getting flagged is contingent upon getting caught cheating. Most users will never have either flag added to their software. 
 

Of course, we’ve also learned that nobody deserves those flags and every person banned has been wrongfully targeted…

Edited May 7, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Matt115]

8 hours ago, Lenny Lettuce Lips said:

There's no "conspiracy".  My guess is that he read something a little too close and got irate under the other conditions he'd agreed to via Steam. Steam's conditions are a little pervase and leave no room for argument nor privacy. I'd recommend reading their documents. 

Companies have shown they use these loopholes time and time again. I haven't heard about anything linking back to Steam directly, but that doesn't mean it isn't or couldn't happen. Without legal protection through our agreement, it makes sense to be wary. 

It's because this don't have influence for players at all. And there is no point to worry about that stuff because we don't have any influence on valve

[Star69]

If you don’t cheat, there’s no issue. I’m sure the guy is bummed that he didn’t buy a hard copy of the game, he purchased access to the game through Steam. However, if you don’t get caught cheating, you’ll never lose access to the game. If you want to ‘own’ the game, buy a copy from Gamestop. This isn’t just Steam, all of the online stores are set up this way.

[Lenny Lettuce Lips]

1 hour ago, Star69 said:

If you don’t cheat, there’s no issue. I’m sure the guy is bummed that he didn’t buy a hard copy of the game, he purchased access to the game through Steam. However, if you don’t get caught cheating, you’ll never lose access to the game. If you want to ‘own’ the game, buy a copy from Gamestop. This isn’t just Steam, all of the online stores are set up this way.

I disagree, but I understand what you mean. 

Epic and Origin are both really bad for privacy. Worse than Steam, if you can believe it. Epic was known to have a lot of security issues, not the least of which was turning your computer into a bitcoin mine. I've never installed either, and never will. 

I do miss the days of hard copies. Ironically it's because of this model I believe piracy increased. The idea was to "prevent" it, but when people didn't have physical copies, and they don't own them anyway, why not just download it? Makes me miss my old classic game collection. 

[Matt115]

2 minutes ago, Lenny Lettuce Lips said:

I disagree, but I understand what you mean. 

Epic and Origin are both really bad for privacy. Worse than Steam, if you can believe it. Epic was known to have a lot of security issues, not the least of which was turning your computer into a bitcoin mine. I've never installed either, and never will. 

I do miss the days of hard copies. Ironically it's because of this model I believe piracy increased. The idea was to "prevent" it, but when people didn't have physical copies, and they don't own them anyway, why not just download it? Makes me miss my old classic game collection. 

And honestly - they manage to descrease piracy a lot since 2004.  A lot of things that you wrote can be connected wtih a little bit forgotten Pacsteam - it was strange software that allowed you to get games from for free somehow. i never use it but it was popular in some countries