Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

Congratulations - that's a fallacy.

 

I understand @Viktoriusiii's question 100%. They said builders, miners, and farmers.

 

None of these things produce jeeps, AK47's, or chemistry benches. Or any of the other things that are outside the activities where looting is not required.

 

I wish people would be addressed honestly on this forum instead of being willfully or ignorantly misrepresented.

 

What now? Is Jost willingly or ignorantly misrepresenting? Can't have it both ways. I hope I understand Vics AND Jost posts and both have a point.

 

Jost is simply saying that looting is central to the game while building, mining  and farming are second-class. In single player just staying in one place and mining is almost impossible (with the help of the trader probably still doable though).

 

Building, farming and mining are still secondary goals to win the game by the way. To solve your food problems eventually farming is the solution (hunting another), to solve horde night defense building is the answer and for ammo supply mining is the final answer.

 

And Vic is right in asking what about people who want to specialize into mining/building/farming? There were players who liked to do that. And the answer is that yes, they need to depend on their co-players for things like magazines. But that isn't new, in MP the miner or farmer would always get armor and weapons from his friends, couldn't that be part of the specialization as well ?

The alternative, especially for single players, is to advance at a snails pace (trader has everything, just not in abundant quantities)

 

7D2D is far from a 100% sandbox by now and it was (according to kickstarter) never planned to be.

 

6 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

This game should really be 'Do as you please,' at least until a proper questline and endgame comes about. The idea that you are free to do as you please but..

 

*cough* can't avoid bloodmoons for one night by hiding (intrinsically balanced by the player giving up fun, exp, and potential loot)..

 

*cough* can't advance fully without looting (if things go the way they look.)

6 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

The forced direction (along with this; book collection, which I see as a means of a cheap way of extendng play time - and no, I'm not interested in rehashing...) has; in my eyes, ruined the old charm of the game. 

 

On topic, single player vs multiplayer - what's the deal with the books? When you have multiplayer people can specialise, but for those of us who (sometimes) choose to play alone (or have no choice) - then what's the gig? Having to collect an absurd number of books will become (I imagine) unbearably tedious when you don't have the multiplayer split work and specific roles (miner, farmer, builder, defender, doctor etc.) 

 

Any word on this? 🤔

 

 

Single player had always slower progression than MP, MP always had the advantage of specialization. I don't think this change will make SP players progress slower, it will be the same as before (if TFP finds the right balance). Just don't expect a pure doctor to be a very useful specialization, that never was a thing. Again, this is not a pure sandbox, and this is also not a massively-multiplayer game where someone actually could put up shop as a doctor.

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

6 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

Congratulations - that's a fallacy.

I understand @Viktoriusiii's question 100%. They said builders, miners, and farmers.

None of these things produce jeeps, AK47's, or chemistry benches. Or any of the other things that are outside the activities where looting is not required.

 

I wish people would be addressed honestly on this forum instead of being willfully or ignorantly misrepresented.

I wish people on this forum would be addressed properly and not called dishonest because the other part does not share the same opinion.

 

If you're implying that Builders, Miners and Farmers don't need to learn to craft in MP, well, that's up to them.

They can completely ignore the crafting aspect of the game and do what they do. Somebody else in the group will take the "crafter role", I suppose.

[RipClaw]

7 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

Having to collect an absurd number of books will become (I imagine) unbearably tedious when you don't have the multiplayer split work and specific roles (miner, farmer, builder, defender, doctor etc.) 

It depends on how many of the magazines drop on average per day if you don't push it.

 

A single player can't do everything at once. He has to manage his time. The question is how much time we have to invest in looting to have equipment that is suitable for the gamestage.

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

What now? Is Jost willingly or ignorantly misrepresenting? Can't have it both ways. I hope I understand Vics AND Jost posts and both have a point.

 

 

 

It's not my place to say which because I try not to speak to the intent of the individual, but those are the only two options per statement, without delving into finitude and pedantic analysis of nuance.

 

I have no idea what you mean by I '...can't have it both ways.'

 

No-one said neither or either do or don't have points.

 

The former asked a question which (something I find annoying) pushes people not so big into looting excessively (for entire collections of books or mods etc).

 

The latter addressed it in a manner which looked very much like we will be looting in such a way whether we like it or not.

 

I interjected and gave my analysis and opinion, and hoped to separate the two points. One thing I can say about your response however, I appreciate the honesty with 'If' the devs get the balance right.

 

And the difference between SP and MP? This is precisely my point. Giving people options and sliders, switches and knobs, dials and levers - stuff to customise the game each wants to play will play to nothing but the strength and success of the game. The alternative isn't very pretty.

 

Anyway I appreciate the response.

 

 

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

It depends on how many of the magazines drop on average per day if you don't push it.

 

A single player can't do everything at once. He has to manage his time. The question is how much time we have to invest in looting to have equipment that is suitable for the gamestage.

 

 

Again, I appreciate the response - and I don't know whether you didn't read my post properly or whether you have a problem formulating a response which is honestly connected to the point I made.

 

The options are not just 'Tediously boring' or 'Have everything at once.'

 

I mean no disrespect - seriously, but this really is an issue that has to be addressed. Gating in this manner is in my opinion ridiculous for reasons I will not get into (but can support if necessary) and it can backfire if not properly addressed.

 

There has been a lot of discussion on here on the balance between SP and Multiplayer, but I think the way TFP have gone about addressing genuine problems (and created more along the way) has been poor in many respects.

 

Thank you for your reply, anyway. It's nice to see a non-toxic response 👍🏻

Edited August 12, 2022 by Beelzebubs Ghost (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

4 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

The former asked a question which pushes people not so big into looting excessively.

It's not very clear what you mean here.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Melange]

 

7 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

12 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

The former asked a question which pushes people not so big into looting excessively.

It's not very clear what you mean here.

My pedantic analysis infers that those of diminutive stature can be goaded into looting frenzies when posed with a particular query. It's all in the nuance

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

8 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

It's not very clear what you mean 

 

Please take this up with @Viktoriusiii

 

He/she should reiterate their points for you in their initial post.

[Viktoriusiii]

@Jost Amman

20 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

The former asked a question which (something I find annoying) pushes people not so big into looting excessively (for entire collections of books or mods etc).

 

The latter addressed it in a manner which looked very much like we will be looting in such a way whether we like it or not.

 

I think what he means is that I (former) said that it looks like these lootable schematics increase the already insane drive to go out looting, which will alienate people that don't want to go looting and just want to play mole, builder and farmer on their land.
Then you (latter) said that this is just what it is and that looting is the core gameplay and if you don't like it, you should just leave.
 

[meganoth]

21 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

It's not my place to say which because I try not to speak to the intent of the individual, but those are the only two options per statement, without delving into finitude and pedantic analysis of nuance.

 

I have no idea what you mean by I '...can't have it both ways.'

 

No-one said neither or either do or don't have points.

 

Correct. I don't know why I misread it as an "and". Though your claim that you do not speak to the intent of the individual is a bit strange when you explicitely listed assumptions why Jost did it and used negatively loaded words like "ignorantly". Well, nobody is perfect. 😉

 

21 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

The former asked a question which (something I find annoying) pushes people not so big into looting excessively (for entire collections of books or mods etc).

 

The latter addressed it in a manner which looked very much like we will be looting in such a way whether we like it or not.

 

I interjected and gave my analysis and opinion, and hoped to separate the two points. One thing I can say about your response however, I appreciate the honesty with 'If' the devs get the balance right.

 

And the difference between SP and MP? This is precisely my point. Giving people options and sliders, switches and knobs, dials and levers - stuff to customise the game each wants to play will play to nothing but the strength and success of the game. The alternative isn't very pretty.

 

But the discrepancy between SP and MP is not a good example for that. Because all except maybe one of the specific knobs, dials and levers to make SP faster or MP slower are already there. The only one missing would be a trader knob which could be said is handled on the side with the loot abundancy option.

 

Not that more options aren't a bad idea. Just that developers tend to add options preferably right at the end before release.

 

21 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

Anyway I appreciate the response.

 

 

 

Again, I appreciate the response - and I don't know whether you didn't read my post properly or whether you have a problem formulating a response which is honestly connected to the point I made.

 

The options are not just 'Tediously boring' or 'Have everything at once.'

 

I mean no disrespect - seriously, but this really is an issue that has to be addressed. Gating in this manner is in my opinion ridiculous for reasons I will not get into (but can support if necessary) and it can backfire if not properly addressed.

 

There has been a lot of discussion on here on the balance between SP and Multiplayer, but I think the way TFP have gone about addressing genuine problems (and created more along the way) has been poor in many respects.

 

Thank you for your reply, anyway. It's nice to see a non-toxic response 👍🏻

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

6 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Then you (latter) said that this is just what it is and that looting is the core gameplay and if you don't like it, you should just leave.

I only play SP, so, from my perspective, you simply can't play without doing any looting.

Give me one example, just one, of someone playing the game in single player (even in A20), who can just focus on building, farming, or mining and ignore looting.

There's no "just leave" there, I'm just stating a fact, I'm not trying to impose something or be rude... that's just how the game plays in single player.

 

So, yeah, in a non-rude but blunt way, I'm kind of saying "get over it". There's no other way to play the game in SP.

 

As for multiplayer, I already explained that IMO you just need someone else to focus on crafting.

That person will get all the magazines from the other members of the group who go looting, or buy them from a trader or get them as quest rewards.

Then, the other more "sedentary" players, can focus on mining, building or farming all they want.

[Viktoriusiii]

2 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

I only play SP, so, from my perspective, you simply can't play without doing any looting.

Maybe not anymore bc of the new systems.
But in earlier versions you could do everything from home.
Since you leveled skills by doing them (or spending points that you gained by mining) you were able to craft anything you needed, and if you REALLY wanted, you could go to the trader and stock up.

 

Nowadays with the uncraftable items and weapon/Armorparts, this has become really hard, but still possible, because you can still buy the tools you need from ressources you mined. And since you unlock items via leveling, you can simply spend your skillpoints there.
Not ideal in any way, but still at least SOMEWHAT plausible.
If you now could not even get better without looting, that would be the deathnail, but as stated, that was a misunderstanding on my part.
But still... all recipes being locked behind looting makes this already very hard playstyle nearly impossible.

So yes, it is already hard. That is why I was questioning the designchoice, because it makes it even harder for ppl that enjoy that part of the game.

 

Spoiler

*edit* stop it Kuosimodo! Your taunting positive/nice/non-negative reactions are worse than the negative ones I am used to from you -_-

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Viktoriusiii (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

11 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Since you leveled skills by doing them (or spending points that you gained by mining) you were able to craft anything you needed, and if you REALLY wanted, you could go to the trader and stock up.

This is LBD nostalgia. LBD is gone, is never coming back and was never meant to stay. It was a temporary solution to leveling while they were cooking the current system.

As long as people keep pushing for LBD to come back, they'll always be disappointed with the current game.

 

11 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Nowadays with the uncraftable items and weapon/Armorparts, this has become really hard, but still possible, because you can still buy the tools you need from ressources you mined. And since you unlock items via leveling, you can simply spend your skillpoints there.

Ok, so you play your games without looting at all? I mean, even if you can learn how to craft (i.e.) a Steel Axe, where do you get your steel?

You'll need a crucible. Where do you get it? The only option would be a very lucky dice roll with the trader, otherwise you'll need to dismantle streetlights and such or loot.

 

I can't understand if this some kind of tenant or what... why can't you do a little bit of exploration or looting?

Are you jimping yourself on purpose just to prove a point? 

[Viktoriusiii]

27 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Ok, so you play your games without looting at all? I mean, even if you can learn how to craft (i.e.) a Steel Axe, where do you get your steel?

You'll need a crucible. Where do you get it? The only option would be a very lucky dice roll with the trader, otherwise you'll need to dismantle streetlights and such or loot.

 

I can't understand if this some kind of tenant or what... why can't you do a little bit of exploration or looting?

Are you jimping yourself on purpose just to prove a point? 

On 8/8/2022 at 12:00 AM, Viktoriusiii said:

Oh I'm not the target... I'm just thinking alienating like... at least 20% of your players is a bit rough

I'm not that kind of player. I like exploration and looting and doing quests.
But there are other people that don't. And they aren't single digits.

It is what they find most fun, but it is getting harder and harder for them to do BECAUSE of "lootable only" items. (that was the reason for their introduction! to force players to go out looting, because they didn't like that people just stayed at their base, moling all the time)
And now they make it even harder.

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

20 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

@Jost Amman

 

I think what he means is that I (former) said that it looks like these lootable schematics increase the already insane drive to go out looting, which will alienate people that don't want to go looting and just want to play mole, builder and farmer on their land.
Then you (latter) said that this is just what it is and that looting is the core gameplay and if you don't like it, you should just leave.
 

 

Thank you - you summarised it better than me 😂👍🏻

 

 

14 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

I only play SP, so, from my perspective, you simply can't play without doing any looting.

Give me one example, just one, of someone playing the game in single player (even in A20), who can just focus on building, farming, or mining and ignore looting.

There's no "just leave" there, I'm just stating a fact, I'm not trying to impose something or be rude... that's just how the game plays in single player.

 

So, yeah, in a non-rude but blunt way, I'm kind of saying "get over it". There's no other way to play the game in SP.

 

As for multiplayer, I already explained that IMO you just need someone else to focus on crafting.

That person will get all the magazines from the other members of the group who go looting, or buy them from a trader or get them as quest rewards.

Then, the other more "sedentary" players, can focus on mining, building or farming all they want.

 

The point is (and if I might suggest the point of @Viktoriusiii and please correct me if I'm wrong) not that there is NO looting whatsoever.

 

That's the fallacy - and it's not a false choice. The nature of the excessive necessity of looting is not a subject that should be ignored. No matter if people don't like Viktoriusiii's point, or mine, or indeed yours, they should be open for proper discussion.

 

Not liking or criticising something leads to two kinds of engagements - those of the morons who don't like someone not liking something, and those of individuals who care more about 'why' people object and are willing to entertain their reasons to better understand them.

 

When I explained some of the mechanics that we used to have (such as smell, climber Z's, wild farming etc) and their removal to my friends who haven't played as long as me - they are utterly bemused. That fact must say something and appeal to those interested in genuine discussion on these points.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Beelzebubs Ghost (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

Ok, so you play your games without looting at all? I mean, even if you can learn how to craft (i.e.) a Steel Axe, where do you get your steel?

You'll need a crucible. Where do you get it? The only option would be a very lucky dice roll with the trader, otherwise you'll need to dismantle streetlights and such or loot.

You only need 3 points in Better Barter and then you have a high chance that the trader has a crucible in his secret stash. With 4 points in Better Barter the chance increases. And with 5 out of 5 points in Better Barter, it is certain that the trader has a crucible in his secret stash.

[Jost Amman]

It's all much more clear now guys, I see your points, thanks.

[Melange]

4 minutes ago, unholyjoe said:

as for the question of choice... i prefer to survive and that painted wall will not fill my belly.

Indeed. But I can't drink that bottle of oil. so I'd like to make paint with it. Good to know things haven't changed in regards to the paint. But they could...

[NekoPawtato]

42 minutes ago, Laran Mithras said:

With the upcoming water changes, making water more scarce and murky water so valuable...

 

Will there be any changes to the recipe for paint? Or will paint become the new ultra-luxury no one would want to afford?

you get 100 paint from 1 murky water (200 if using chemistry station)

I don't really use paint so IDK how fast someone would go through that. If you can burn through hundreds of paint that quickly then would you say you're at a point where you're no longer struggling for water? (Unless maybe you're taking over an existing POI and painting over it?)

Edited August 16, 2022 by NekoPawtato (see edit history)

[Melange]

@NekoPawtato. It doesn't take me long to use up paint. One unit of paint will usually cover one block face. Now some cosmetics within my base I will make a priority (eg. making a crate that holds my food look like a stove which I've put a fire ring on, or painting a crate to look like a beverage cooler which I will use for all my drinks).  But I use paint mostly to change the reflection of bars which I can shoot through. And if one's base has a fence all around, then the paint is used up quickly. And when the bars are upgraded we must paint them again. My vision has changed over the years. Not enough light is a problem. But too much light, as in the reflection from my headlamp is not good either. My solution is to Paint it Black. That black carpet texture. The shades we can wear don't help, so I revert to paint. In A21, I'll just have to suffer through it until I am swimming in excess water.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Melange
Missed a t. lol (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

22 minutes ago, Uncle Al said:

Basically 'does a perked character loot slightly fewer magazines, on average, of the things they're not perked into, or do they loot the same average haul of their unperked subjects while also picking up a few extra magazines of the things they are perked into?'

As far as I can remember, last time they answered this question, it was the latter.

[Star69]

12 hours ago, Roland said:

 

You ain't kidding and I largely ignored those from A6-A20. Now, when I see a house I run to it intending to hit the mailbox first thing with a smile of anticipation on my face. That smile changes to a scowl if it turns out to be one of those sucky houses without a mailbox...

 

Oh, A21 mailboxes! How beautiful your profiles are as I look down a yet to be explored street and see you there in a line, your little red flags bidding me to come and read your contents!

I’m going to agree with you but would change it to A6-A19. With A20, mailboxes are, for me, a huge source of money on Day 1 as they always contain books. The first thing that I do when I reach a town is to hit all of the mailboxes and some of the newspaper stands if I’m brave then sell all of them. At that point I have around $2000 or more to buy food and ammo or whatever I need. When they respawn on Day 10, I return and loot to read.

[Laran Mithras]

10 hours ago, NekoPawtato said:

you get 100 paint from 1 murky water (200 if using chemistry station)

I don't really use paint so IDK how fast someone would go through that. If you can burn through hundreds of paint that quickly then would you say you're at a point where you're no longer struggling for water? (Unless maybe you're taking over an existing POI and painting over it?)

In my current solo, I've already burned over 3K paint just on the base of the structure alone - not a drop for the walls or interior. Normally, I go through about 4K total. This playthrough is going to be ~8K

 

A21 Murky water... Paint won't be viable until extremely late game if there are no changes to paint recipe.

[outhous]

On 8/11/2022 at 3:09 PM, maxousara said:

not a reason for be angry

Who is angry? Seriously who? No anger in my post at all, don't know where you got that idea. 

 

On 8/11/2022 at 3:09 PM, maxousara said:

this is just a question nothing else

And I gave a reply nothing else. 😕

[outhous]

On 8/11/2022 at 1:41 PM, Lasher said:

Can you prove it is?

Well how many copies of the game were sold?

How many people come to the forums?

How many people actually post on the forums?

How many people complain about farming on the forums?

So obviously, farming complainers ARE a minority.

[outhous]

1 hour ago, Laran Mithras said:

Paint won't be viable until extremely late game if there are no changes to paint recipe.

Just loot a Savage Country, take all the dye out of the clothes and scrap each dye into 15 paint. Unless you just need tons of paint.