2 issues

[Speaking The Truth]

Created an account just to express these two concerns/complaints I have with the game.

1. The first issue is that I’ve noticed on every 4th day or so I get a random pack of wolves, or feral dogs attack me out of nowhere. Nobody seems to be discussing but it has existed for quite awhile and frankly it’s more annoying than anything else. It doesn’t matter how stealthy I am being, a pack of 2-4 wolves spawn in an immediately home in on my location. The pack itself is a manageable threat now that I have built some experience, but it feels cheap when dying to the early stages because the game just decides to rush you with some wolves out of nowhere. How has nobody complained about this, is mind boggling to me.

2. This complaint is more serious for me. The horde nights are either way too easy or way too hard. Every base design out there that can actually withstand a 7th day horde looks like some crazy cement pyramid or some other oddly shaped contraption that stands out like a sore thumb with the rest of the environment. These base designs feel exploitive and dumb, to which I say-to each’s own. If you want to live inside a cheese grater then be be my guest, however...if you opt to live in a horde base that feels natural and in sync with the game, then you better be prepared to to receive a beating. It seems like the players who are designing the Uber powerful horde bases that are exploitive and boring are the same players that the developers are trying to kill. Therefore anyone who wants to play legit with a horde base that doesn’t exploit ai will get utterly rekt. 
 

in short: This game has transformed from  “player vs zombie” to “player vs ai”

 

Those are my ONLY two complaints with the game. This is my favorite zombie game because it allows players to have the freedom to survive the zombie apocalypse however they imagined. Every update feels like a push to play in a certain direction and it’s pushing me away.

[Ramethzer0]

eh...

 

No one complains about the wolves because old oldbies have been there, done that.  It is meant to be one of the challenges of the game.   Be glad you weren't here for the ninja bear brigades or the invisible zombie dogs.  Sure its annoying.  Dying to something superior to a fresh spawn is really frustrating.  But it is one of those things you learn to develop a sense of 'gotta stay away from all that for the time being'.   It's the same with all the difficult content in the game.  You could skip most of the safer biomes and go straight to the wasteland if you like.  Experience directs what we may consider what is fun and what isn't.  Sure, dying early to a wolf pack kinda sucks - but.. the early game is meant to be deadly.  The game doesn't just decide that like it doesn't make any sense.  Since this has been in the game for so long, I must assume at this point that it is  intended gameplay.   Pro tip:  If you're surrounded, get to kiting.

 

And your argument for what is easy or hard in a horde night is kinda a YMMV argument.   There are really only two ways to run a horde night.  1.  Looking good, looking good.  or 2.  HOLY CRAP THEY BREACHED.   What you are missing in this is the idea of examination of what that problem is meant to instill.   Was there a weakness in your base design?  Did you take everything into account?  What could you have done better?  When you are able to examine the failings of a base, then you're in a position to make a determination about how to do it better and more efficient.   Without specific examples, what you're offering is in the abstract at best.  'Sore Thumb'?  'Crazy Cement Pyramid'?

What do you consider 'natural and in sync with the game?'   Do you realize someone else is gunna have different ideas of what those things mean?

 

I gotta be honest, I've not seen a Pyramid base since like.. 16.4.   I didn't even think that they were interesting or efficient back then either.   And if you're here to make a case for 'cheese bases' then believe me, no one is gunna wanna hear it but other people that have hard line opinions of what 'cheese bases' are, and the criteria for which varies from poster to poster.   TBH, it's sort of implied with the type of AI that the zombies have - you're sort of meant to take advantage of that.   Now, we all know that the zombies are beefy AF, olympic trained swimmers, and now with the ducking mechanic they have become MMA fighters as well - If you're against cheese, then don't do it.  It's really that simple.  You have choices.   Your choices may or may not yuck someone else's yum.  So be prepared for that.  What you think sucks or is hard to look at, may in fact - be one of the best options someone might have that is limited to a specific playstyle (I'm looking at you INT specs and your area denial tactics).

 

You're meant to learn from those clutch moments.    And while I wont just come out and spit the 'git gud' trope, but sometimes a little bit of self examination makes all the difference.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[Speaking The Truth]

3 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

But it is one of those things you learn to develop a sense of 'gotta stay away from all that for the time being'

That’s my problem with point number one. You can’t. On day number 4 (or around that time, not sure what triggers it) I am consistently attacked by a dog horde that knows exactly where I am. I have tested this on multiple play throughout and there is no rhyme or reason to it. I have been out chopping trees, or hiding in a baddy for the night and they still come. Most of the time I just club them or something and it’s free meat, but the point is that the game will occasionally spawn entity’s near the player that immediately know your location and go feral, which overall is an unfair mechanic.

3 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

What do you consider 'natural and in sync with the game?'

I consider a natural in sync base to be something that highlights the promoted defense mechanisms provided to the player.  The pyramid was just an example, but just visualize any horde base that is actually successful beyond the first few horde nights and you will find a common theme, where the base is more focused on predicting/manipulating ai pathing to either lead zeds into a death trap or simply stall zeds until the the morning. Both tactics are viable and I don’t have a problem with them, but neither is a promoted mechanic within the confines of the in game defenses and if you try to rely on those defenses alone, with default settings (except for horde value up to 64) your defenses will fail every single time.

 

4 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:

You're meant to learn from those clutch moments.    And while I wont just come out and spit the 'git gud' trope, but sometimes a little bit of self examination makes all the difference.

I just wanted to express my gratitude to this bit right here. You are making it clear that you disagree with me, without being disrespectful. There is not enough of this as of late and I appreciate the response to the topic. If you have any further refutations then fire away!

[theFlu]

21 minutes ago, Speaking The Truth said:

something that highlights the promoted defense mechanisms

I agree that a lot of the current-meta bases are quite cheesy, but I don't have a clue what you mean by "promoted defense mechanisms". The game doesn't instruct you how to make any type of base, but I can't really see anything it is trying to promote as the right way.

 

At least all the POIs look lore-wise like they've failed their defense, so don't go copying those...

[ElDudorino]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

At least all the POIs look lore-wise like they've failed their defense, so don't go copying those...

That's what I was gonna say. My base may stick out like a sore thumb compared to all these barns and store roofs where people were hiding out, but they're dead and I'm not, so maybe they should have been doing what I'm doing.

 

About the wolves, they killed me on my first game but after that I was aware of them so I was able to turn them into meat instead of the other way around. They don't know where you are when they spawn so if you keep aware of your surroundings you can get the drop on them and pick them off one at a time. Because of them I always have meat without having to chase chickens or rabbits. And I like the challenge they introduce to the early game.

[BarryTGash]

I'd suggest turning ai block damage down if you want to avoid tower defence, bunker-style bases. In addition, or instead, you could turn off bloodmoon hordes and try a larger wandering horde mod, or something like Khaine's Wandering Horde Frequency mod, which is configurable. Wandering hordes don't specifically target the player, they wander near by, so if you're not paying attention you could still get a nasty surprise but the choice is yours whether you engage, assuming you notice them before they notice you

 

One of my long running games, A19 so defunct now, was set up like this (without block damage reduction) and I enjoyed it a lot. The danger is still there but it doesn't feel quite so forced and 'scripted'.

Edited February 6, 2022 by BarryTGash (see edit history)

[Rotor]

1 hour ago, ElDudorino said:

They don't know where you are when they spawn ...

 

I believe that to be true.  Atleast for a few seconds for sure.  I was running back to base one day really early in game, but forget D#.  The pack spawned like 50m in front, not sure, but effing close, I could not avoid them fast enough, but they ran past me.  Once I was the past the "oh FecalMatter" point I turned and started moving away, and they were standing there, looking the other way.

 

P.s. In General...probably because of my system, but if I am doing something and the game suddenly skips a frame I know something is spawning and for a few MSecs I wonder if it is going to be right on top of me heh.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Rotor (see edit history)

[JCrook1028]

6 hours ago, Speaking The Truth said:

On day number 4 (or around that time, not sure what triggers it) I am consistently attacked by a dog horde that knows exactly where I am. I have tested this on multiple play throughout and there is no rhyme or reason to it. I have been out chopping trees, or hiding in a baddy for the night and they s

1. Day has nothing to do with wandering horde spawns. it's all related to gamestage.

2. Yes they do know where you are BUT their path is NOT directly to you, they run on a tangent to you. Quite often they will pass you by entirely without seeing you to aggro. They then reach the end of their pathing and disband into normal biome zombies wandering about.

[PoppaSmirk]

Interesting post, and I will slightly agree with one point,  there does seem to be a feeling that Players are being a bit nudged to adapt a playstyle that takes certain directions.  Supplies in loot for some items have become so limited that it does "feel"  as if players are being shoved toward taking many more  'Traders Missions"  to make any headway.   I certainly feel pushed to go into the Wastelands at a much earlier stage than I used to start visiting it in previous Alphas.  As for the wolves issue,   I notice certain patterns in most of My playthroughs, right now I notice that as soon as the timer hits 22:00 hours I can practically see the wild animal population spawning in as I putt-putt along a road on minibike heading back to My base.   I also have it almost timed  about which day I will go outside at 4:00 am and see Buddy Bear sauntering up and down the street very near to My Base.  The 'rot'-weilers that show up in packs of 4 or 5 are usually My ..."look out for trouble"  item,  as they do show up in My game around every 4th day or so.  So,  its not necessarily a bad thing,  as one that I find more of a pattern,  and I just suppose that I don't expect everything within the game to be totally random.  Some elements are added just to give some extra action I suppose.   I do hope that you find your happy medium in zomb activity though.

[Ramethzer0]

7 hours ago, Speaking The Truth said:

I just wanted to express my gratitude to this bit right here. You are making it clear that you disagree with me, without being disrespectful. There is not enough of this as of late and I appreciate the response to the topic.

Honestly, I hope im getting better at this.  Roland is a mountain of grace and I look to him as an example.  Thank you <3

 

In my experience, I don't nearly see as many dog or wolf packs anymore.  I'm often very much checking my sight lines, and I know when I see a dog carrier in a POI i give it a wide berth if I feel I can't take it.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[8_Hussars]

  

12 hours ago, Speaking The Truth said:

1. The first issue is that I’ve noticed on every 4th day or so I get a random pack of wolves, or feral dogs attack me out of nowhere.

I was under the impression that the wolf pack was just one version of a "wandering horde" out of a few.  A bunch of vultures and a dog pack being options, in addition to a Quality Street assortment of stock zombies as well.  My most recent start had a Dire Wolf showing up on my elevated "safe" place during night one (it maneuvered around a horizontal elevated open door, my bad).  For me, it was not a welcome surprise and a bit over the top for night one.  However, its all just part of the game and it doesn't happen often enough to be noteworthy.  YMMV    

 

12 hours ago, Speaking The Truth said:

2. This complaint is more serious for me. The horde nights are either way too easy or way too hard. Every base design out there that can actually withstand a 7th day horde looks like some crazy cement pyramid or some other oddly shaped contraption that stands out like a sore thumb with the rest of the environment. These base designs feel exploitive and dumb, to which I say-to each’s own. If you want to live inside a cheese grater then be be my guest, however...if you opt to live in a horde base that feels natural and in sync with the game, then you better be prepared to to receive a beating. It seems like the players who are designing the Uber powerful horde bases that are exploitive and boring are the same players that the developers are trying to kill.

I am a noob at Tower Defense but obviously a player only has so much DPM.  A players very limited choice on how to manage DPM vs Zombie balance to ensure their DPM is enough at any given point during the horde; is through, block mass, path timing, passive and active traps, increasing DPM, or some combination of all of them.

"Cheese" and to a lesser extent what constitutes an exploit ; is in the eye of the beholder.  Not to mention what proportions from the above list "feels natural and in sync with the game".
 

12 hours ago, Speaking The Truth said:

Therefore anyone who wants to play legit with a horde base that doesn’t exploit ai will get utterly rekt.

Meh, I see it differently.  It's all about managing zombie AI vs a players DPM.  I do not think that there is any such thing as a "legit" horde base.  They all exploit the zombie AI through one or a combination of the above limited choices.   

 

[Blasphemous]

Note from me on base building: I go for the "sacrificial anode".

To explain, it's a tower base where I live upstairs but the first 6-high blocks are steel, typically 10x10.

Sure, in the early stages, it's concrete but eventually I upgrade.

I build a 12x12 ring at the top, made from narrow blocks which extend beyond the walls and just nuke zombies banging at the foundation walls, with contact grenades and later rockets.

Funny part is, in 19.6, the zombies actually tried to burrow through the steel to collapse the base, I had to relocate around the circle so they'd bang on fresh walls.

In A20, the zombies just... pile in one spot world-war-z-style, without attacking the actual base. And still get nuked with explosives. I'm not even trying to cheese them at this point but this base design has worked for me for a looong time and its utterly simple.

 

My conclusion is that whatever the pimps do with the AI, inevitably some designs will be more resilient, some less so.

I went for the funnel-tunnel type with hatches, but they seem to be able to dig through 10 hatches, 21k HP each on a single horde night and that's impressive. After that, I just move back to my tower and nuke whatever's left. I play 64 zombie hordes.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Blasphemous (see edit history)

[Speaking The Truth]

  

What i mean by that is that when I open my game menu looking for defense solutions I am presented with traps and defensive structures to build, so I would argue that these are the games intended tactics, however in effect they are largely ineffective and the primary method of defending a base is to take advantage of the AI travel path, such as leading them along an endless loop. I don't want to remove the latter because there are some players who like it, but I think it's fair to say that it is not really an intended style of play.

 

8 hours ago, ElDudorino said:

About the wolves, they killed me on my first game but after that I was aware of them so I was able to turn them into meat instead of the other way around. They don't know where you are when they spawn

 

7 hours ago, Rotor said:

I believe that to be true.  Atleast for a few seconds for sure.  I was running back to base one day really early in game, but forget D#.  The pack spawned like 50m in front, not sure, but effing close, I could not avoid them fast enough, but they ran past me

So that initial wolf back I am referring to definitely knows your location. Ive been underground hiding in a dark basement doing nothing and have had them spawn in and run straight into the building, aggroing on the blocks in their way. I have had instances when they have ran past me but only if im outside and away from anything they can destroy, so yes to some extent they dont know your EXACT location, but the idea that entitys will spawn pre aggroed and put on a pre-determined  path to your location in such a obvious manner is annoying to me. Is it manageable? Yes, but I think that if the developers insist on spawning threats like that near the player then they should spawn like the zombies and not be aggroed from the beginning. 

 

7 hours ago, BarryTGash said:

'd suggest turning ai block damage down if you want to avoid tower defence, bunker-style bases. In addition, or instead, you could turn off bloodmoon hordes and try a larger wandering horde mod, or something like Khaine's Wandering Horde Frequency mod, which is configurable. Wandering hordes don't specifically target the player, they wander near by, so if you're not paying attention you could still get a nasty surprise but the choice is yours whether you engage, assuming you notice them before they notice you

This is realistically the perfect solution to my problem. I have always been hesitant on adjusting too many settings (I tend to leave everything default except for horde size to max, because giant hordes are fun!), because I've felt like the devs have designed their default settings to be the optimal balance between challenge and fun but I no longer think that this is the case. I do enjoy challenging horde nights and i want to still have my bases breached, with the threat of them being destroyed, but on the default settings the ai is just too efficient and tends to bypass my defenses by the first 2-3 hours, unless i cheese. Thanks for convincing me, to finally take that leap and start adjusting settings. Unfortunately, this probably means i won't be able to discuss balance issues in the future, but then again maybe thats why nobody else seems too concerned about it, 

 

3 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

1. Day has nothing to do with wandering horde spawns. it's all related to gamestage.

2. Yes they do know where you are BUT their path is NOT directly to you, they run on a tangent to you. Quite often they will pass you by entirely without seeing you to aggro. They then reach the end of their pathing and disband into normal biome zombies wandering about.

1. I don't think this is true. The wolves could be related to gamestage, but i have noticed that after every horde night the next special zed is spawned, On day 8 a screamer spawns outside my base. On day 15 a spider spawns, on day 22 a cop spawns...now it could be total coincidence with my game stage and the actual day, but I believe that each one of these zombies spawn near the player after each horde night in that same order, its's a way notify the player that these threats will now start to spawn in. It's an introduction of sorts. 

 

2. Honestly that part is irrelavent though, the primary concern is that they know your location and it dosen't matter if I am crouched in the dark being sneaky, they still spawn in as angry zeds and will start attacking your base if you are near it. I've learned to go out after every horde night now, to prevent these spawns from getting near my base, but this is crossing the line into exploitive territory for me. 

3 hours ago, PoppaSmirk said:

Interesting post, and I will slightly agree with one point,  there does seem to be a feeling that Players are being a bit nudged to adapt a playstyle that takes certain directions.  Supplies in loot for some items have become so limited that it does "feel"  as if players are being shoved toward taking many more  'Traders Missions"  to make any headway.   I certainly feel pushed to go into the Wastelands at a much earlier stage than I used to start visiting it in previous Alphas.  As for the wolves issue,   I notice certain patterns in most of My playthroughs, right now I notice that as soon as the timer hits 22:00 hours I can practically see the wild animal population spawning in as I putt-putt along a road on minibike heading back to My base.   I also have it almost timed  about which day I will go outside at 4:00 am and see Buddy Bear sauntering up and down the street very near to My Base.  The 'rot'-weilers that show up in packs of 4 or 5 are usually My ..."look out for trouble"  item,  as they do show up in My game around every 4th day or so.  So,  its not necessarily a bad thing,  as one that I find more of a pattern,  and I just suppose that I don't expect everything within the game to be totally random.  Some elements are added just to give some extra action I suppose.   I do hope that you find your happy medium in zomb activity though.

You said it best, and this is what I have been looking for. Nobody seems to be discussing this and I was starting to believe that the game was just picking on me lol. Thats my main problem with it. It's not that they are un-manageable (although 4-5 feral dogs on day 4 is a bit much), but that the it feels like the game is forcing the player into certain fights, just because it wants to. I think that a happy medium could be to remove the aggro state when they spawn in, but honestly I just dont like things spawning right next to me for a fight, especially when im just out chopping wood or something. I will be tweaking my settings in the future, I'm just happy that someone else has actually observed the spawning patterns too. 

 

2 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

I was under the impression that the wolf pack was just one version of a "wandering horde" out of a few.  A bunch of vultures and a dog pack being options, in addition to a Quality Street assortment of stock zombies as well.  My most recent start had a Dire Wolf showing up on my elevated "safe" place during night one (it maneuvered around a horizontal elevated open door, my bad).  For me, it was not a welcome surprise and a bit over the top for night one.  However, its all just part of the game and it doesn't happen often enough to be noteworthy.  YMMV    

Those random hordes you mention are welcome additions to the game for me, but what i am discussing is not one of those. Those hordes spawn near the player on a set path and can be avoided, fought or whatever. The wolf pack I am talking about will always show up, around the same time in every single playthrough and their sole objective is to hunt and kill the player, wherever you are. The other weird thing about these threats is that they disappear after they kill you, unlike other wandering hordes that stay or move on, which even adds to the idea that the game just likes to bully the player at times. 

 

2 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

I am a noob at Tower Defense but obviously a player only has so much DPM.  A players very limited choice on how to manage DPM vs Zombie balance to ensure their DPM is enough at any given point during the horde; is through, block mass, path timing, passive and active traps, increasing DPM, or some combination of all of them

Yes, you would think that DPM is the solution...or block mass, or path timing etc...but they are not. In the default settings, the timespan for 7 days is not enough for the player to build enough defenses, or block mass to stop hold back the horde and manage their food, water and resources at the same time. The only viable solution you mentioned is path timing, which is what the majority of successful bases do now. They don't try to fight or hold back a horde anymore, but instead they just lead the zombies through a circuit until the morning comes. There are exceptions to this rule...some players build super high and just let the zombies smack at the bottom of their base the whole night and others will drive around in vehicles to prevent damage to their base. However the strategy still comes down to either avoiding the horde, or manipulating it. The average player who wants to build a spiked up, electric death fort will find their hard work quickly torn asunder, unless they manipulate the ai into one single track path. 

 

2 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

Meh, I see it differently.  It's all about managing zombie AI vs a players DPM.  I do not think that there is any such thing as a "legit" horde base.  They all exploit the zombie AI through one or a combination of the above limited choices.   

 

Well I really enjoy this game because it allows me to live out my own scenarios for how I personally would survive the zombie apocalypse. You know that age old question you ask friends in real life? The whole "Where would you go during the zombie apocalypse, what weapon would you use, etc...this game allows me to live out those fantasy's...or at least it use to. Legit is probably the wrong choice of words here, but here is an example of a base i had tried to build for awhile:

 

I built a large farmhouse that was walled off, a spike trench surrounding it and a draw bridge. The house itself was mostly decorative with some nicely placed turrets for a bit of fire support, but the farmhouse had a bunker that I expanded and this is where the real killing and defense took place. The idea was pretty simple and straightforward, i would man the walls outside of the house for a bit and snipe high priority zeds as they make their way across the spike trench. As they breached the walls I would fall back to the farmhouse and take out a few more with the turrets, until they breached the building. Then I would fall back to the bunker and wait for the zeds to come and make a last stand. It sounds great on paper and the base felt like it fit the lore and theme of the world around me.

 

In previous versions It actually worked somewhat, but now the zeds just seem to be way too efficient. They now know the weakest point of your base and as soon as that part gets breached the others will all pile in through that one opening. They will run around the vault door you just fell back to and instead tunnel into your bunker from above, if it's an easier breach point. Or they will find some crazy alternative path to your base, such as scaling a rock and jumping over your walls. This has forced players to focus less on building a strong base and to focus more on predicting the path they will take.  The end result are bases that either leave a specific area very open, to lead the zombies into the breach, or to create a base that endlessly leads them around until morning. On default settings it is no longer viable to simply build a strong bunker without specific breach points and I think that is a problem. 

[Speaking The Truth]

1 hour ago, Blasphemous said:

Note from me on base building: I go for the "sacrificial anode".

To explain, it's a tower base where I live upstairs but the first 6-high blocks are steel, typically 10x10.

Sure, in the early stages, it's concrete but eventually I upgrade.

I build a 12x12 ring at the top, made from narrow blocks which extend beyond the walls and just nuke zombies banging at the foundation walls, with contact grenades and later rockets.

Funny part is, in 19.6, the zombies actually tried to burrow through the steel to collapse the base, I had to relocate around the circle so they'd bang on fresh walls.

In A20, the zombies just... pile in one spot world-war-z-style, without attacking the actual base. And still get nuked with explosives. I'm not even trying to cheese them at this point but this base design has worked for me for a looong time and its utterly simple.

 

My conclusion is that whatever the pimps do with the AI, inevitably some designs will be more resilient, some less so.

I went for the funnel-tunnel type with hatches, but they seem to be able to dig through 10 hatches, 21k HP each on a single horde night and that's impressive. After that, I just move back to my tower and nuke whatever's left. I play 64 zombie hordes.

This has been my experience as well. The horde bases can be easily designed to survive without much struggle, or they can end up being a giant nightmare. Its hard to design a base that meets in the middle. I'd like to have multiple layers with strategic fall back points, but this is no longer a viable strategy. 

[8_Hussars]

38 minutes ago, Speaking The Truth said:

  

What i mean by that is that when I open my game menu looking for defense solutions I am presented with traps and defensive structures to build, so I would argue that these are the games intended tactics, however in effect they are largely ineffective and the primary method of defending a base is to take advantage of the AI travel path, such as leading them along an endless loop. I don't want to remove the latter because there are some players who like it, but I think it's fair to say that it is not really an intended style of play.

 

 The end result are bases that either leave a specific area very open, to lead the zombies into the breach, or to create a base that endlessly leads them around until morning. On default settings it is no longer viable to simply build a strong bunker without specific breach points and I think that is a problem. 

I understand, it doesn't seem to fit your play style anymore but that really is a function of laying your conceptions of how the game "should" be played onto the game and not the game mechanics itself.  Players are fee to play anyway they want in the big sandbox.     

To be fair those examples you provided are somewhat dated and I do not think anyone builds a loop base to just hold out until 0400 not killing zombies.  They build loops to ensure their DPM matches or exceeds the zombies.   I for one perfer melee play and find the almost mandatory reliance on guns/ammo in late game gets tiresome.

In your case having multiple defenses and fall back points is good strategy.  But it could be argued that spike trenches and choke points are just another way that a player "exploits" the zombie AI (to ensure DPM matches the incoming zombies), just in a way that feels more natural to you.  You also have to lead them along the path to all the defenses...


Check out skippy0330 current Base Day 1 series for a good example of a bunker that works and is upgraded over time.  I watched an A19 "Insane Vegan (no meat challenge) Max Hordes, Nightmare, Permadeath, Nomad player; play a Day 2 horde (random) with about 25 upgraded wood blocks and a Level 1 bone knife.  They killed them all (and used a small loop) so there are many ways to skin the horde base cat.  I encourage you to keep designing and experimenting.

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by 8_Hussars (see edit history)

[omegaflames]

Having recently seen a dire wolf spawn on night 1 game stage 1 I agree that the spawns are ludicrously too powerful. I haven't seen a wandering horde of wolves yet like you have though. There are just certain enemies that you shouldn't be able to meet in the wild until you are a certain level.

[ElDudorino]

47 minutes ago, omegaflames said:

Having recently seen a dire wolf spawn on night 1 game stage 1 I agree that the spawns are ludicrously too powerful. I haven't seen a wandering horde of wolves yet like you have though. There are just certain enemies that you shouldn't be able to meet in the wild until you are a certain level.

Well, don't forget that you lose no exp before level 6.  That means when you die on night 1 as a newbie you're probably just going to lose a level 1 stone axe and some flowers (which you can recover after the wolf wanders off).  If you have some more experience with the game you're probably not going to die to a dire wolf even if it spawns on night 1.

Edited February 7, 2022 by ElDudorino (see edit history)

[omegaflames]

If you only have a t1 stone axe and some flowers by the time night 1 rolls around you are doing something wrong. But you still are not likely to find enough of anything to be able to kill a dire wolf on night 1. I should not be facing an enemy in the wild (the area that is supposed to be player level dependent on what it spawns) that there is 0 chance I can kill/defeat on the EASIEST difficulty (I forgot to mention that part). If it was on insane then sure, you picked that option afterall but that's not what we are talking about.

[Speaking The Truth]

6 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

I understand, it doesn't seem to fit your play style anymore but that really is a function of laying your conceptions of how the game "should" be played onto the game and not the game mechanics itself.  Players are fee to play anyway they want in the big sandbox.     

To be fair those examples you provided are somewhat dated and I do not think anyone builds a loop base to just hold out until 0400 not killing zombies.  They build loops to ensure their DPM matches or exceeds the zombies.   I for one perfer melee play and find the almost mandatory reliance on guns/ammo in late game gets tiresome.

In your case having multiple defenses and fall back points is good strategy.  But it could be argued that spike trenches and choke points are just another way that a player "exploits" the zombie AI (to ensure DPM matches the incoming zombies), just in a way that feels more natural to you.  You also have to lead them along the path to all the defenses...


Check out skippy0330 current Base Day 1 series for a good example of a bunker that works and is upgraded over time.  I watched an A19 "Insane Vegan (no meat challenge) Max Hordes, Nightmare, Permadeath, Nomad player; play a Day 2 horde (random) with about 25 upgraded wood blocks and a Level 1 bone knife.  They killed them all (and used a small loop) so there are many ways to skin the horde base cat.  I encourage you to keep designing and experimenting.

 

Thanks for the referrals, I’ll check them out and get back to you an what I think of them. It is fair to say that I have predetermined conceptions of how the game should be played, but my concern is not that the exploitive bases exist. Rather my concern is that on default difficulty the exploitive bases are really the only viable way to build now. You have said that players are free to play any way they want, which is exactly what I am advocating for.

[Whiteshark68]

5 hours ago, omegaflames said:

If you only have a t1 stone axe and some flowers by the time night 1 rolls around you are doing something wrong. But you still are not likely to find enough of anything to be able to kill a dire wolf on night 1. I should not be facing an enemy in the wild (the area that is supposed to be player level dependent on what it spawns) that there is 0 chance I can kill/defeat on the EASIEST difficulty (I forgot to mention that part). If it was on insane then sure, you picked that option afterall but that's not what we are talking about.

I don't know about dire wolves spawning on night 1 but i have had bears spawn in on night one before took my whole supply of arrows i always craft as many arrows as i can and about 10 spears to kill it but kill it i did.

you just need to get up somewhere high where it can't get you.

on night one if you are not up somewhere high you might need to rethink your play style

 

[BarryTGash]

8 hours ago, Speaking The Truth said:

start adjusting settings. Unfortunately, this probably means i won't be able to discuss balance issues in the future, but then again maybe thats why nobody else seems too concerned about it, 

 

Don't forget you can uninstall mods any time and game settings that you change are highlighted yellow so you can always find the default value again.

 

I'd also suggest that if you have a specific map you want to play in your main playthrough, do not use it whilst experimenting with settings and whilst looking for the perfect mod combo. You might become too familiar with it, removing the exploration aspect, so use another map for testing purposes.

 

Have fun!

[ElDudorino]

9 hours ago, omegaflames said:

If you only have a t1 stone axe and some flowers by the time night 1 rolls around you are doing something wrong.

That's why I said as a newbie. A day 1 dire wolf will surely kill a newbie but who cares, it's part of learning the game and the penalty is minor. Having played a bit, if I encounter a dire wolf on day 1 I'm going to cook it.

[JCrook1028]

13 hours ago, Speaking The Truth said:

Honestly that part is irrelavent though, the primary concern is that they know your location and it dosen't matter if I am crouched in the dark being sneaky, they still spawn in as angry zeds and will start attacking your base if you are near it

13 hours ago, Speaking The Truth said:

  i have noticed that after every horde night the next special zed is spawned, On day 8 a screamer spawns outside my base. On day 15 a spider spawns, on day 22 a cop spawns..

That's absolutely untrue. Nothing spawns a screamer except heat so............. think what you may but it is NOT the game progressively throwing you "sample" zombies. Just not at all what it happening.

 

The second again is not what is happening. The wandering hordes do NOT have an "attack base" command order given to them. Period. End of sentence. Full Stop. They have a path near you then IF they see you they aggro against you. Nothing aggros them against your base unless you are in it when they see you and they enter destroy area to get to you.

 

 

 

[meganoth]

14 hours ago, Speaking The Truth said:

  

What i mean by that is that when I open my game menu looking for defense solutions I am presented with traps and defensive structures to build, so I would argue that these are the games intended tactics, however in effect they are largely ineffective and the primary method of defending a base is to take advantage of the AI travel path, such as leading them along an endless loop. I don't want to remove the latter because there are some players who like it, but I think it's fair to say that it is not really an intended style of play.

 

Traps are only ineffective if you can't lead the zombies through them. So I would argue that leading the zombies through a specific path is exactly how you make traps work. Case in point:

 

Our current base in my MP game has a path to us and a pit beside the path. On the other side of the path is a sledge turret with flaming mod installed pushing the zombies into the pit. On the floor of the pit there is a blade trap where the burning zombies falling down get their first major damage.

 

The pit has a narrow exit path for the zombies but at a turn of that path are two dart throwers with a motion detector shooting at all the zombies trying to get out of the pit again. Result: Even glowy cops and soldiers get killed by that combination of traps.

 

Naturally only a part of the zombies get pushed down and the rest continue on the path, but there is a large difference between having to shoot all the zombies or only part of them. And who says I can't add more traps (or simply another sledge turret for less zombies getting through)

 

If you think building stuff like this is not possible in the time you have then maybe you forget that you can easily adapt POIs as defense bases, that saves you a lot of time and resources initially.

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[PinkLed5]

On 2/6/2022 at 1:19 AM, Speaking The Truth said:

to each’s own

 

Smart.  Really smart.  But I'm smarter than you're!