Speaking The Truth

Aggressive was the wrong word, I should have said alert. You know when you make too much noise and zombies start knocking down your door? That’s what is going on except without the noise. No light source, default settings, and crouched in a dark attic just watching the console menu. I was in a neighborhood on a random gen. If I move into the house during the day and then move outside on top of a big rock then I am able to see the wolf pack spawn in and instead of running after me, they run to the house that I cleared and start attacking it, until they get inside. Then they turn around and go after me. No mods are installed at this time. I really appreciate you trying to investigate this rather than just calling me crazy. This reminds me of the days when players swore up and down that zombies were spawning behind them and the fun pimps would just deny the mechanic. as far as your mod suggestion, I think that it is an awesome idea, and I again commend your methods of bringing science into this topic, but I think I’m just going to give up, I don’t know what’s wrong with my games, but apparently nobody else has the problem, so I suppose it’s not as important as I originally thought. I did find a post in 2019 from Roland that gave me a bit of useful information as well and maybe just some piece of mind that I’m not crazy: ”Random spawns, they aren’t supposed to spawn right behind you out of thin air in the open but they can spawn behind you around a corner out of sight. Any place that isn’t in line of sight is fair game for spawning. Each chunk has a spawning mask that enables after the full number of zombies have been killed for that biome. Once that mask triggers nothing else spawns until the timer finishes. In the forest biome that is 4-5 days.By comparison the Wasteland biome has a much shorter mask. But while zombies are still in queue to be spawned because you haven’t fully cleared the area they will spawn out of sight even if that is around the corner of a building a few meters away. Now, as always, latency can make it so that the zombie suddenly moves rapidly right up behind you. If you take the time to thoroughly clear the surrounding area of all zombies until it is clear that no more are spawning in then you shouldn’t have to worry about something sucker punching you from behind. I’m playing a mod that increases environmental spawns by 4x and it has really emphasized the need to completely clear the entire surrounding area and a set number of new zombies keep spawning in until you empty the queue and then you have peace for a time.”

So I couldn’t help myself and made a new file and sat on the top of a poi watching the console. It seemed to be constantly updating until night then suddenly I got some odd yellow text that stated: WRN No chunk for position: (enter coordinates here) Followed by the types of entity’s: players:1 zombies:0 entitys:3 I got this chunk of code repeating for a total of 4 times until it changed to: WRN Calling Animator.GotoState on synchronize layer-followed by players:1 Zom: 3 Entity:4 Shortly after that a dire wolf and spider zombie came knocking on the door as an aggressive entity and quickly killed me. As such my theory still stands that the game absolutely spawns aggressive entity’s near the player for no reason other than the passing of time.

I didn’t have any problems with the escape ladder or anything like that. It is the ramps that lead them up to the floor that is a deal breaker for me. I want to build structures that focus on holding back the horde and killing them. I don’t really care for the idea of building a walkway for them to follow. Just a personal preference thing, I do think that the base idea is solid and I wouldn’t hold it against anyone if they choose to use it.

I checked out day 7 and 14 of the suggested channel. Overall it was a pretty entertaining and fun looking base, however for myself I would still say that it takes advantage of the ai pathing too much. He basically built a tower with ramps to encourage the zombies to run up into a kill section, which is a viable method. I am looking more for something that looks and feels like a actual livable space, with multiple areas to fallback to, which then have similar style chokepoints to his. Think of the first nazi zombies if you have ever played it. In that game you typically start each level by trying to shoot the zombies that are breaking in, while repairing your barricades, but eventually you are pushed back into a corner where you must make a final stand. Im looking to replicate a similar concept, that will still blend in well with the surrounding environment and also still be able to hold its own. It's a bit of a challenge!

Thank you for the console tip, I will utilize this more in the future. The zombie hordes that spawn don't seem to be the issue as they will do largely what you describe here. The dogs however will spawn in and run straight for me or my base and start attacking. I have even been outside and watched them spawn, then instead of running for me, they run up to my base and start attacking it, with nobody inside lol.

This is very interesting and good to know, thank you for the pathing information. Oddly enough i felt like the previous versions had been forcing me to go into smaller compact builds and now it sounds the same compact builds may be my problem. I will try to take a villa or something next weekend and see if I can keep them from focusing on a single breach. I am always trying to build the latter. It's really hard for me to make that base that provides a decent level of challenging, without getting immediately overrun, but it's also extremely easy to build something that will protect you with no challenge. It's very disheartening when you prepare a base for 7 days with multiple fallback points and die on the first hour and the horde disappears or build it so good that the horde doesn't push you back, so you never get to test or utilize all of those neat escape tunnels and fallback points lol. Your last post encouraged me though. Next weekend I'm going mega big, with multiple safe rooms, tunnels and assorted traps...and beer! Gona be a good time I hope, despite my two gripes, this really is still the best zombie survival game on the market.

1. I see that you have a good bit of posts and have some experience, so I will take some of what you say as true and try to do some more testing to see what is really happening, but I am telling you that in my games i consistently get these sample spawns after every horde night. It's a thing I tell you! 2. I never suggested that zombies have an attack base function. You are twisting my post up, I said that they will spawn near the player as an aggressive entity and attack the base if I am near it. This is usually because of the ai pathing, and I believe they think that my base is an obstacle in their way to me. An unalerted normal zombie will simply walk into my spikes or go around the base where as these *random spawns will start attacking which adds to my initial theory that they have been spawned in to hunt the player. First off sorry for shortening the post in the quote, i read the entire thing and it was a really good response that I'll be referring to in whole, I just didn't want my next reply to look like a wall of bricks lol. I think you did a really good job at breaking down the concepts behind a base defense and it's helped me decide on what my primary concern is with a standard horde night. Ultimately, I don't have a problem with other players using what I consider cheese bases, I see now that by using that term I have made a few players think that I am advocating for the removal of these and I'm really unconcerned with how others play in their own game. In your three stages of a base defense every single strategy involves either predicting or manipulating the ai pathing system. Now some players have pointed out that I am still doing the same thing by using traps at all, which is a fair point, however I do believe my methods do it to a lesser extent and I think that there is a happy medium here. Afterall the entire game is as you've said a tower defense game and if the zombies attacked with zero predictability, then our base building and strategies would probably be less enjoyable. So with everything you and others have said I would like to refine my original post topic number 2... I do not think that the AI should be constantly searching for the quickest and easiest route to the player. I think that on spawn the AI should decide on one path to the player and the travel path should only update interrupted by damage, or by having their travel path get updated. Additionally, I think that the games AI should pick out a path from a pool of options that is +/- 20% efficiency from the quickest and easiest route. This will ensure that as zombies spawn in they will stay on their pre-determined path unless interrupted. As a result the zombies would come bashing into a players fortified home from multiple different entry points which would allow a player to make use of a perimeter defense, rather than a funnel defense. By keeping the travel path at or near 80% efficiency we can still allow players to create a single-entry funnel point if they prefer. My new and refined gripe with the current state of horde night is that the only viable base defense is not necessarily cheese, but rather the player is forced to create a funnel for the zombies. This can be changed by lowering settings, but the zombie behavior would stay the same and such they still all pile up in the single most efficient path, which I believe ruins emersion in the game.

Thanks for the referrals, I’ll check them out and get back to you an what I think of them. It is fair to say that I have predetermined conceptions of how the game should be played, but my concern is not that the exploitive bases exist. Rather my concern is that on default difficulty the exploitive bases are really the only viable way to build now. You have said that players are free to play any way they want, which is exactly what I am advocating for.

This has been my experience as well. The horde bases can be easily designed to survive without much struggle, or they can end up being a giant nightmare. Its hard to design a base that meets in the middle. I'd like to have multiple layers with strategic fall back points, but this is no longer a viable strategy.

What i mean by that is that when I open my game menu looking for defense solutions I am presented with traps and defensive structures to build, so I would argue that these are the games intended tactics, however in effect they are largely ineffective and the primary method of defending a base is to take advantage of the AI travel path, such as leading them along an endless loop. I don't want to remove the latter because there are some players who like it, but I think it's fair to say that it is not really an intended style of play. So that initial wolf back I am referring to definitely knows your location. Ive been underground hiding in a dark basement doing nothing and have had them spawn in and run straight into the building, aggroing on the blocks in their way. I have had instances when they have ran past me but only if im outside and away from anything they can destroy, so yes to some extent they dont know your EXACT location, but the idea that entitys will spawn pre aggroed and put on a pre-determined path to your location in such a obvious manner is annoying to me. Is it manageable? Yes, but I think that if the developers insist on spawning threats like that near the player then they should spawn like the zombies and not be aggroed from the beginning. This is realistically the perfect solution to my problem. I have always been hesitant on adjusting too many settings (I tend to leave everything default except for horde size to max, because giant hordes are fun!), because I've felt like the devs have designed their default settings to be the optimal balance between challenge and fun but I no longer think that this is the case. I do enjoy challenging horde nights and i want to still have my bases breached, with the threat of them being destroyed, but on the default settings the ai is just too efficient and tends to bypass my defenses by the first 2-3 hours, unless i cheese. Thanks for convincing me, to finally take that leap and start adjusting settings. Unfortunately, this probably means i won't be able to discuss balance issues in the future, but then again maybe thats why nobody else seems too concerned about it, 1. I don't think this is true. The wolves could be related to gamestage, but i have noticed that after every horde night the next special zed is spawned, On day 8 a screamer spawns outside my base. On day 15 a spider spawns, on day 22 a cop spawns...now it could be total coincidence with my game stage and the actual day, but I believe that each one of these zombies spawn near the player after each horde night in that same order, its's a way notify the player that these threats will now start to spawn in. It's an introduction of sorts. 2. Honestly that part is irrelavent though, the primary concern is that they know your location and it dosen't matter if I am crouched in the dark being sneaky, they still spawn in as angry zeds and will start attacking your base if you are near it. I've learned to go out after every horde night now, to prevent these spawns from getting near my base, but this is crossing the line into exploitive territory for me. You said it best, and this is what I have been looking for. Nobody seems to be discussing this and I was starting to believe that the game was just picking on me lol. Thats my main problem with it. It's not that they are un-manageable (although 4-5 feral dogs on day 4 is a bit much), but that the it feels like the game is forcing the player into certain fights, just because it wants to. I think that a happy medium could be to remove the aggro state when they spawn in, but honestly I just dont like things spawning right next to me for a fight, especially when im just out chopping wood or something. I will be tweaking my settings in the future, I'm just happy that someone else has actually observed the spawning patterns too. Those random hordes you mention are welcome additions to the game for me, but what i am discussing is not one of those. Those hordes spawn near the player on a set path and can be avoided, fought or whatever. The wolf pack I am talking about will always show up, around the same time in every single playthrough and their sole objective is to hunt and kill the player, wherever you are. The other weird thing about these threats is that they disappear after they kill you, unlike other wandering hordes that stay or move on, which even adds to the idea that the game just likes to bully the player at times. Yes, you would think that DPM is the solution...or block mass, or path timing etc...but they are not. In the default settings, the timespan for 7 days is not enough for the player to build enough defenses, or block mass to stop hold back the horde and manage their food, water and resources at the same time. The only viable solution you mentioned is path timing, which is what the majority of successful bases do now. They don't try to fight or hold back a horde anymore, but instead they just lead the zombies through a circuit until the morning comes. There are exceptions to this rule...some players build super high and just let the zombies smack at the bottom of their base the whole night and others will drive around in vehicles to prevent damage to their base. However the strategy still comes down to either avoiding the horde, or manipulating it. The average player who wants to build a spiked up, electric death fort will find their hard work quickly torn asunder, unless they manipulate the ai into one single track path. Well I really enjoy this game because it allows me to live out my own scenarios for how I personally would survive the zombie apocalypse. You know that age old question you ask friends in real life? The whole "Where would you go during the zombie apocalypse, what weapon would you use, etc...this game allows me to live out those fantasy's...or at least it use to. Legit is probably the wrong choice of words here, but here is an example of a base i had tried to build for awhile: I built a large farmhouse that was walled off, a spike trench surrounding it and a draw bridge. The house itself was mostly decorative with some nicely placed turrets for a bit of fire support, but the farmhouse had a bunker that I expanded and this is where the real killing and defense took place. The idea was pretty simple and straightforward, i would man the walls outside of the house for a bit and snipe high priority zeds as they make their way across the spike trench. As they breached the walls I would fall back to the farmhouse and take out a few more with the turrets, until they breached the building. Then I would fall back to the bunker and wait for the zeds to come and make a last stand. It sounds great on paper and the base felt like it fit the lore and theme of the world around me. In previous versions It actually worked somewhat, but now the zeds just seem to be way too efficient. They now know the weakest point of your base and as soon as that part gets breached the others will all pile in through that one opening. They will run around the vault door you just fell back to and instead tunnel into your bunker from above, if it's an easier breach point. Or they will find some crazy alternative path to your base, such as scaling a rock and jumping over your walls. This has forced players to focus less on building a strong base and to focus more on predicting the path they will take. The end result are bases that either leave a specific area very open, to lead the zombies into the breach, or to create a base that endlessly leads them around until morning. On default settings it is no longer viable to simply build a strong bunker without specific breach points and I think that is a problem.

That’s my problem with point number one. You can’t. On day number 4 (or around that time, not sure what triggers it) I am consistently attacked by a dog horde that knows exactly where I am. I have tested this on multiple play throughout and there is no rhyme or reason to it. I have been out chopping trees, or hiding in a baddy for the night and they still come. Most of the time I just club them or something and it’s free meat, but the point is that the game will occasionally spawn entity’s near the player that immediately know your location and go feral, which overall is an unfair mechanic. I consider a natural in sync base to be something that highlights the promoted defense mechanisms provided to the player. The pyramid was just an example, but just visualize any horde base that is actually successful beyond the first few horde nights and you will find a common theme, where the base is more focused on predicting/manipulating ai pathing to either lead zeds into a death trap or simply stall zeds until the the morning. Both tactics are viable and I don’t have a problem with them, but neither is a promoted mechanic within the confines of the in game defenses and if you try to rely on those defenses alone, with default settings (except for horde value up to 64) your defenses will fail every single time. I just wanted to express my gratitude to this bit right here. You are making it clear that you disagree with me, without being disrespectful. There is not enough of this as of late and I appreciate the response to the topic. If you have any further refutations then fire away!

Created an account just to express these two concerns/complaints I have with the game. 1. The first issue is that I’ve noticed on every 4th day or so I get a random pack of wolves, or feral dogs attack me out of nowhere. Nobody seems to be discussing but it has existed for quite awhile and frankly it’s more annoying than anything else. It doesn’t matter how stealthy I am being, a pack of 2-4 wolves spawn in an immediately home in on my location. The pack itself is a manageable threat now that I have built some experience, but it feels cheap when dying to the early stages because the game just decides to rush you with some wolves out of nowhere. How has nobody complained about this, is mind boggling to me. 2. This complaint is more serious for me. The horde nights are either way too easy or way too hard. Every base design out there that can actually withstand a 7th day horde looks like some crazy cement pyramid or some other oddly shaped contraption that stands out like a sore thumb with the rest of the environment. These base designs feel exploitive and dumb, to which I say-to each’s own. If you want to live inside a cheese grater then be be my guest, however...if you opt to live in a horde base that feels natural and in sync with the game, then you better be prepared to to receive a beating. It seems like the players who are designing the Uber powerful horde bases that are exploitive and boring are the same players that the developers are trying to kill. Therefore anyone who wants to play legit with a horde base that doesn’t exploit ai will get utterly rekt. in short: This game has transformed from “player vs zombie” to “player vs ai” Those are my ONLY two complaints with the game. This is my favorite zombie game because it allows players to have the freedom to survive the zombie apocalypse however they imagined. Every update feels like a push to play in a certain direction and it’s pushing me away.