So I decided to track Sleeper volumes in Poi's and how many are ambushes.

[theFlu]

4 hours ago, Enlonwhite said:

Also a video released lately on one of my channels for 7dtd actually went in to the code and checked the room triggers and such and YES most of the NEW poi's have attack triggers, aka no stealth working on this.

Tiny error on the stealth there; as we've been testing above, stealth is really harshly tuned for those, but Boidster stealthed attack volumes successfully with 3/5 From the Shadows. So, "no stealth working" isn't strictly correct, it's just really really hard, "skill points are mandatory" -hard.

And yeh, I dislike the attack volume implementation as well.

[Boidster]

I wrote a mod (really, my first actual useful DLL-based mod, yay!) which adds instrumentation to the stealth code:

 

 

Right now it only logs when you first trigger a sleeper volume, and then for 'attack' volumes, the results (and math) for each zombie's "can I see you" check. The above example is with 3/5 From the Shadows. The key value is the LightAttackPercent, which is used as a way to translate your visibility into a sort of special attack-zombie-only "distance they can see you" number (ignoring line of sight!). 

 

That number ranges from 3 to 15 meters (hardcoded) and the game uses linear interpolation (lerp) to calculate the value. If your LightAttackPercent were 0 (very stealthy player), then the "lerp" you see above would be 3. If your LightAttackPercent were 1 (not stealthy at all), then the "lerp" would be 15. All the ranges between 3 and 15 are dependent on your stealth skill (and also environment light I think, but I want to confirm that).

 

The game compares actual distance ("distance to player" in the log) with the lerp - if the distance > lerp, you are undetected (but zombie goes 'active'). Otherwise, ATTACK!

 

I can add arbitrary logging into this, so if you have any ideas let me know. I will add a couple of more things myself and then publish to Nexus a little later.

[theFlu]

I started wondering how I ended up using two days for testing stealth (other than being my usual idiot self), so, I decided to skim through the thread again. Couple things that caught my eye, may have eventually been adressed, but I'll make my points:

 

This challenge from @Roland

" Resturaunt_02
Sleeper Volumes:  12"

"Can we see the code on that?"

 

I didn't see anyone properly address this here, so:

restaurant_02.xml(23):   <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />

 

They all seem to be attack-volumes - there's more than 12 thou. I dropped in to prefab editor to check; my first time in the editor, the UI takes getting used to - but from what I was able to select, every volume Was indeed "attack".

For a list of POIS with >= 6 attack volumes, and less-than-that of other volume types, see spoiler:

Spoiler

apartments_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
commercial_strip_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2" />
countrytown_business_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_06.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_08.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_09.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_13.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_14.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_building_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_building_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_building_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_09.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_11.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,0,2,2,2,0,2,0,2,2,2,2,2,0,2" />
downtown_filler_12.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_13.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_15.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,0,2,2" />
downtown_filler_22.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_23.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_24.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_25.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_27.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_30.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_31.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_strip_05.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,0,0,2,2,0,0,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,0" />
downtown_strip_07.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_strip_09.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,0,0,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0" />
farm_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,0" />
farm_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,2,2,0,2,0,2" />
farm_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2" />
farm_05.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_07.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_08.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_11.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_12.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
field_concert_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_12.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_13.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_14.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2" />
house_modern_15.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2" />
house_modern_16.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_17.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_18.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_19.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_20.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_21.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_22.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_23.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_old_gambrel_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_old_mansard_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,1,0,2,0,0,0,2,0,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0" />
house_old_mansard_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,0,2,2,2,0,0,2,0,2" />
house_old_ranch_11.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_old_victorian_06.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,0" />
housing_development_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
office_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,2,2,2" />
office_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
parking_garage_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
parking_garage_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
post_office_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_church_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_11.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_12.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_14.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_15.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_16.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_17.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_18.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_house_14.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_house_16.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_waste_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_waste_05.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_waste_06.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_waste_08.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
restaurant_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
restaurant_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
rural_church_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
rural_drive_in_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
store_clothing_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,0" />
store_electronics_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,0" />
store_grocery_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
store_gun_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0" />
store_hardware_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,2,2,2,2,0,0,0,0,2,0,2,0,2" />
warehouse_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2" />
warehouse_05.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_06.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_07.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />

That is 89 POIs that have "most" set as attack volumes. And by visual guesstimate, about 80% of those have practically "All".

 

The lights-out discussion:
"And since light now affects stealth, they need to update the stealthmetre. Because currently it does not (or not correctly) factor light into this value."

 

I'm just seeing the rumor from this kill-the-lights-discussion making every wanna-be-sneaker start beating on lanterns with their stone axes. I can't imagine that being fun for anyone, so I just have to say, "please don't" (my plea shall be drowned in a wall-of-text-thread, but I'll make it anyway)

 

With the way things are, I don't see destroying lights as necessary, nor even that useful. The stealth meter does show when you're lit. The only* moment that being lit will matter is the moment you cross an attack volume threshold. You can usually navigate around the light sources well enough and most of them are NOT pointing on to a volume boundary - destroying the flashlight pointing out a window from the room you just cleared is just extra electrical parts. If a light is pointing straight to a zed, take a ranged shot From the Shadows. If you can't aim, toss a 'nade..

 

*Sure it effects the normal stealth too, but with the effect size there, you're not going to be surprised by it. You'll be right on the zed anyway.

Edited February 4, 2022 by theFlu (see edit history)

[hiemfire]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

For a list of POIS with >= 6 attack volumes, and less-than-that of other volume types, see spoiler:

  Reveal hidden contents

apartments_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
commercial_strip_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2" />
countrytown_business_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_06.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_08.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_09.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_13.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
countrytown_business_14.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_building_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_building_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_building_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_09.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_11.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,0,2,2,2,0,2,0,2,2,2,2,2,0,2" />
downtown_filler_12.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_13.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_15.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,0,2,2" />
downtown_filler_22.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_23.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_24.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_25.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_27.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_30.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_filler_31.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_strip_05.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,0,0,2,2,0,0,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,0" />
downtown_strip_07.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
downtown_strip_09.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,0,0,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0" />
farm_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,0" />
farm_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,2,2,0,2,0,2" />
farm_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2" />
farm_05.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_07.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_08.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_11.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
farm_12.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
field_concert_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_12.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_13.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_14.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2" />
house_modern_15.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2" />
house_modern_16.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_17.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_18.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_19.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_20.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_21.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_22.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_modern_23.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_old_gambrel_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_old_mansard_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,1,0,2,0,0,0,2,0,0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0" />
house_old_mansard_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,0,2,2,2,0,0,2,0,2" />
house_old_ranch_11.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
house_old_victorian_06.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,0" />
housing_development_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
office_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,2,2,2" />
office_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
parking_garage_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
parking_garage_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
post_office_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_church_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_11.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_12.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_14.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_15.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_16.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_17.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_downtown_filler_18.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_house_14.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_house_16.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_waste_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_waste_05.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_waste_06.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
remnant_waste_08.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
restaurant_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
restaurant_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
rural_church_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
rural_drive_in_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
store_clothing_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,0" />
store_electronics_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0,0" />
store_grocery_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
store_gun_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2,0" />
store_hardware_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,2,2,2,2,0,0,0,0,2,0,2,0,2" />
warehouse_01.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_02.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_03.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_04.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,0,2" />
warehouse_05.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_06.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
warehouse_07.xml:  <property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />

That is 89 POIs that have "most" set as attack volumes. And by visual guesstimate, about 80% of those have practically "All".

 

Almost as if the Poi designers were given a green light to place as many as they wanted with the additions of fataal's adjustments to stealth. Wouldn't happen to have a breakdown that shows total of POIs with 2 or more attack volumes vs total # of POIs would you?

 

2 or more because I'm expecting all of the POIs to have at least one attack volume now.

[Boidster]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

*Sure it effects the normal stealth too, but with the effect size there, you're not going to be surprised by it. You'll be right on the zed anyway.

 

Can you expand more on this idea? If you have awakened a group of sleepers (they are in 'active' mode), what is it that would cause you to be right on top of them before they can see you (if the room is lit)?

Edited February 4, 2022 by Boidster (see edit history)

[theFlu]

10 minutes ago, Boidster said:

what is it that would cause you to be right on top of them

Half of them are staring at an exploitable direction, just approach from behind, no vision checks.

Unless you're looking for a melee attack, you don't need to get too close, the distance alone is sufficient.

 

Overall, as long as you don't walk right next to one into a cone of light, you'll be pretty much fine.

 

11 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

Wouldn't happen to have a breakdown that shows total of POIs with 2 or more attack volumes vs total # of POIs would you?

Some quick grep-fu: in the folder POIs there are 212 with more than 2 two or more, and 670 total. The total includes some (at least 40ish) street signs though, so as actual percentage.. At least a third.

Edited February 4, 2022 by theFlu (see edit history)

[Roland]

 

35 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

 

Almost as if the Poi designers were given a green light to place as many as they wanted with the additions of fataal's adjustments to stealth. Wouldn't happen to have a breakdown that shows total of POIs with 2 or more attack volumes vs total # of POIs would you?

 

2 or more because I'm expecting all of the POIs to have at least one attack volume now.

 

I definitely think they changed most of the volumes to attack in order to facilitate fataal's adjustments. If you are going to run a stealth check for every zed in a volume but the volume is flagged as inactive then where is the need for a check? To have a check there needs to be a chance of failure and that can only happen if the room is flagged to have zeds attack if the check fails.

 

These attack volumes are not the same type of attack volumes we discussed in A19. The problem isn't that they are flagged as attack...the problem seems to be with stealth, lighting, communication to the player, and perhaps the sensitivity or ease by which players can fail. They really should set every single volume to attack everywhere as long as they can tune in stealth and make it so that it isn't quite so easily failed and that it definitely and noticeably succeeds much more often as ranks are bought.

 

Then they also need to create a backup trigger that is probably automatic when leaving the volume so that if there are zombies hidden that we snuck past they wake up. If you aren't doing a clear quest, you are past them already.  You could shut the door and move on. If it is a clear quest then you won't miss those guys.

 

Finally, (and this coming from the guy that wants all onscreen icons to be invisible) I think we need the eye back that lets us know whether we are being targeted. If you sneak into a room and 5 zombies fall out of the rafters awake and ready to attack but the eye is closed then you know you are safe to stay hidden and take them out but if it is open then you know to retreat or openly attack. The current number really doesn't convey whether you are actively being hunted or not and I definitely don't want floating exclamation and question marks above the heads of the zombies.

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[theFlu]

11 minutes ago, Roland said:

I definitely think they changed most of the volumes to attack in order to facilitate fataal's adjustments. If you are going to run a stealth check for every zed in a volume but the volume is flagged as inactive then where is the need for a check?

That all kinda depends on the purpose of the volume type. Are they supposed to be guarding the final loot or just scare the player? The behaviour might need to be different for each. I'm sure they'll end up somewhere decent.

 

17 minutes ago, Roland said:

Then they also need to create a backup trigger that is probably automatic when leaving the volume so that if there are zombies hidden that we snuck past they wake up.

Umm, no thank you. Getting trapped between two auto-agro volumes doesn't sound like an improvement

 

15 minutes ago, Roland said:

I think we need the eye back that lets us know whether we are being targeted.

Might help, but I'd rather it be obvious in the zeds themselves somehow; walking speed, different animations, something like that. No idea how feasible such would be though.

 

 

[hiemfire]

19 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Some quick grep-fu: in the folder POIs there are 212 with more than 2 two or more, and 670 total. The total includes some (at least 40ish) street signs though, so as actual percentage.. At least a third.

So they stuck with roughly the same proportion as A19. Kinda shoots down my grumping, sort of. Now I'm getting curious about possible RWG spawn weighting for the different POIs.

 

4 minutes ago, Roland said:

I definitely think they changed most of the volumes to attack in order to facilitate fataal's adjustments. If you are going to run a stealth check for every zed in a volume but the volume is flagged as inactive then where is the need for a check? To have a check there needs to be a chance of failure and that can only happen if the room is flagged to have zeds attack if the check fails.

 

Yet with the POIs that @theFlu dug up, with them being clusters summable as "poi-x-01 through 10", until they're fully perked the player is given a fairly active indicator that stealth does not work, true or not, since there is no immediately perceivable difference between a zombie jumping out of a hidden panel going after you (targeted) and one that is looking to figure out who farted at the door to their room (investigating)*. Take into consideration that those are only ones that have 6 or more attack volumes, excluding ones with 5 or less, and a disturbing proportion have almost all if not all of the volumes flagged as attack volumes. If a similar proportion of the volumes with 5 or less attack volumes have 2/3rds or more of their volumes tagged as attack then the indication that stealth isn't working in POIs is even stronger.

 

* = I agree with following.

18 minutes ago, Roland said:

I think we need the eye back that lets us know whether we are being targeted.

 

And I think the crux of the issue with stealth is possibly in the following.

19 minutes ago, Roland said:

These attack volumes are not the same type of attack volumes we discussed in A19. The problem isn't that they are flagged as attack...the problem seems to be with stealth, lighting, communication to the player, and perhaps the sensitivity or ease by which players can fail.

 

Unlike in A19 where the problem with the attack volumes were they were a guaranteed failure point ignoring perk investment with no indicator other than repetitive experiences with the volume, the reason the A20 volumes being flagged as attack is a problem seems to be stemming from the adjustment to how light level is applied to the player for the detectability checks that was released to stable simultaneous with fataal's additional check to toggle to attack that referenced From the Shadows. I'm not saying the change to lighting's effect on stealth was a bad idea, it just needs either some direct tuning or there is something else affecting it that is swinging things too far the other direction when it comes to stealth in POIs.

26 minutes ago, Roland said:

They really should set every single volume to attack everywhere as long as they can tune in stealth and make it so that it isn't quite so easily failed and then definitely noticeably succeeds much more often as ranks in stealth are taken.

If they can get stealth tuned right than this suggestion would also give back a bit more of the feel that some of the longer playing run & gunners have been mentioning they've been missing from the game. 

[Boidster]

15 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

there is no immediately perceivable difference between a zombie jumping out of a hidden panel going after you (targeted) and one that is looking to figure out who farted at the door to their room (investigating)

 

I probably misunderstand the issue, but I think we've shown that a moderately-perked player (3/5 FtS) can successfully enter an Attack sleeper volume and not a single zombie will stir. What is the evidence of stealth failure that is compounded by having many/most POIs with Attack-style volumes?

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Boidster (see edit history)

[hiemfire]

10 minutes ago, Boidster said:

 

I probably misunderstand the issue, but I think we've shown that a moderately-perked player (3/5 FtS) can successfully enter an Attack sleeper volume and not a single zombie will stir. What is the evidence of stealth failure that is compounded by having many/most POIs with Attack-style volumes?

 

The zombies don't move or make a sound every single time that check is failed by them?

 

[Boidster]

2 hours ago, hiemfire said:

The zombies don't move or make a sound every single time that check is failed by them?

 

Well, I can't say every single time I guess because I haven't done exhaustive testing of every POI. I've mainly been using warehouse_06 for recent testing, but they've been consistent in my tests there. The distance an attack sleeper can 'see' you is hardcoded to a range of 3m to 15m* though and in the example above I was far enough away (11.1m) to not be detected at my illumination and stealth skill.

 

In a different attack volume, where the Zs are closer when I trigger them? I might get detected. So definitely, stealth is not an always-works thing, and it shouldn't be IMO. 3/5 was good enough to do okay in the ground areas of warehouse_06. Might not be in other POIs. But I think that's alright. I'll try to go through the entire warehouse to see how different volumes react.

 

I actually do wish the Zs would shamble out even if they don't target the player. The game uses different sounds for when the zombies hear something vs. when they target something, which is an organic way to indicate the situation but hard to catch every time. I can't tell every grunt and groan from every other. Roland's idea of bringing back the eye icon is good, as an option or a mod at least. If the player has (and wants to have) a way to know if they're currently targeted, then having the Zs bust out, but not really have a target, would make for exciting duck-and-cover.

 

*Kinda. I'm simplifying a bit.

[hiemfire]

32 minutes ago, Boidster said:

The game uses different sounds for when the zombies hear something vs. when they target something, which is an organic way to indicate the situation but hard to catch every time.

Unless they changed it from A19, my experience throwing rocks as a distraction and hunting ferals at night says otherwise. The sounds used are the same from what I remember, it just randomizes which one is played a bit between each investigating/targeting instance.

[Scyris]

On 2/2/2022 at 9:26 PM, theFlu said:

I've been messing around in a few POIs, warehouse_06 turned out to be a good spot to test out an attack volume.

tppoi brings you to the front door, the volume of interest is the small break room in the opposite corner, the first zeds in the POI.

 

The zeds in that room spawn in when I walk across the yellow line outside.

 

They will agro 100% of the time when I sneak up the one block staircase towards their break room. Not even stealth level of 1 in the meter allows me to avoid agro. The zeds are showing light at about 3.3 at that point in the debug info.
Once agroed, they sprint at me at full speed. With the task ApproachAndAttackTarget

 

First I noticed I can drop their agro by doing a loop outside, leading them out, running a circle around them and then running back inside, crouching once back up in front of the break room. Takes less than 10 seconds, nowhere near a minute at least. Any faffing about can make them not drop agro, but the agro drop is quite repeatable. Can't say it isn't abusing line of sight, it probably is; but the 90 sec timer doesn't have time to count down.

 

Then I just did a loop in the parking lot with both zeds coming in agroed, was able to drop agro from both on the flat parking lot 3/3 tries. It's quite a dance, but perfectly repeatable. No LoS abuse there.

 

Additional info: A20.1 b6, navezgane, no relevant skills or gear, free use of sleeperreset and killall -commands. I haven't tested resetting the POI, changing the world or the save, so if any of those effect the spawns/mechanics/other_rng, I won't know.

For my opinion of it... it feels a bit bad. They'll come at you regardless of your stealth display being at 1, and the way to avoid getting hit is a silly dance routine on a parking lot. I don't want the stealth gameplay to be popping sleepyheads, but this specific version is rather the opposite. The sleepyheads are popping you just for existing.

 

EDIT_1: I did take out a light source or two at the entrance area, at least one above the door; so if one can't get to stealth 1 at the stairs, that might be the reason.

 

Yeah the problem is less the ambush and the fact they immedatly know where you are no matter what you do. If they woke up and wandered around like outdoor spawns that haven't seen you yet, so they don't rush you and so you can get sneak attacks on them i'd not mind. But the fact they rush you no matter what is the problem. They basically know your there, and lock on/chase you right on activate.

[Scyris]

On 1/31/2022 at 4:28 PM, Roland said:

 

Can we see the code on that? I really doubt that 11 of them are coded as ambush volumes. Just because you wake them up does not mean they are ambush volumes. It means you failed your stealth check. But show me in the code that 11 out of those 12 volumes are flagged as ambushes and I'll believe you and join you in criticizing that design. Otherwise, you have to destroy light sources and increase your perks to have a good chance at not waking zombies up. It is much harder now in A20 but I know that the intended design was to make almost all volumes do stealth checks and only a very few being auto aggro ambush rooms.

 

That being said, I have seen a lot more rooms in which zombies are spawning right before my eyes. I step in and there is nothing and I back up and then step forward again and they spawn often in places I can see so I think there is a bug going on with it but intentional design where all the volumes in any one POI are designated as ambush volumes is something I doubt highly and am not going to believe it just based on the fact that they woke up when you walked into the room.

 

Considering I was stealth the entire time? and I often destroy the pile of garbage thats always behind a door in the path your meant to walk. All I've noticed is that in all the new A20 poi's almost every sleeper volume is a ambush almost every single one, doesn't matter how quiet you are. Before in A19 you could enter the ambush volume in a different way and not trigger it, however in A20 a lot of these sleeper volumes do not spawn the zombies at all unless you step on the ambush trigger, which means when your on a clear quest, you cannot finish it, as the volume does not spawn UNLESS you step on the block that causes the ambush. Its TFP being TFP and forcing you to play in a certain way. I miss back in a16.4 when the player had choice, what weapon you used determined how high you up perks for it, you could stealth or go in guns blazing.

 

The stat system was the dumbest thing TFP has done to the game by far. Their excuse was to avoid "level gate" However, that was ONE level gate, now we have 5 gates instead of one. SO they made the problem WORSE and not better. Not to mention some stats are just worth more than others, str/int being the big 2, while the rest especially in A20 are kinda useless, especially Agi since stealth is a near non-option, which renders several agility perks near useless and a waste of skill points. This is not directly related to the stealth thing but it sort of is, as the way it is in A20 it makes Agility even less worth investing in as many of its perks are completly negated due to the ambush volumes being so prevalient.

[doughphunghus]

On 1/31/2022 at 5:56 PM, Laz Man said:

I think monster closets and drop ceilings can be believable as long as they are not overused and the environment supports it.

I think it would be kinda a bit "nicer" if where they were hiding (which i like, but over time you do start to look at a room and go "yeap, they're right in that closet!") it looked more like that's where they were holed up before they died.  maybe a lot of trash, a dead lantern, bedroll, etc. make it look like they chose that place when they were alive.  Having them pop out of empty closets (a lot) is a bit weird.  falling from the ceiling (like when there's just a ceiling of rafters and a few plywood supports), and they're on the supports, might feel less bad if there were more "flooring" up there, maybe even a bit of ladder, and a cooler and some clothes, etc.

 

Something else I've been wanting and might be "nice to have" in these situations where you don't want to always have "loot" whenever a zed is hidden: some way to add blood or bloody hand prints/smears to things.  even if we can't paint any more textures, having more gore on "empty" containers or just more new "poi only" objects might be nice when they're holed up.  zed bursts out, you kill them, check closet and find a purse and then a few "blood smeared items" to show they were in there for awhile. Some handprints or something.  Having a "dry and clean and organized" hidey hole for a dead person is a little unconvincing.  yeah I know its not a reality simulator but a lot more gore assets might come in handy.  The "dead corpses" they put in here and there is a very nice touch and I fell we could use more of this to help detract from the jump scares... like "lots of zeds came into the building, people hid and eventually died, then the zeds died", so you could put a corpse(s) as a warning to the player next to places a zed (or many) might jump out and then use that concept to put them around doors and closets and have a corpse inside or simply nothing in the closet/hidey hole. with the few gore/corpse blocks we have it might look a bit too redundant. Then the random, clean looking, non corpse warning jump out/down might feel much better as it coudl be a rarer occurrence.

[Boidster]

2 hours ago, Scyris said:

All I've noticed is that in all the new A20 poi's almost every sleeper volume is a ambush almost every single one, doesn't matter how quiet you are.

 

Yeah, the numerous tests, accompanying screenshots, debug info, and faatal's own confirmation in this very thread put the lie to this myth. It is perfectly possible to stealth an attack volume. Copious evidence right here in this thread. (It has nothing to do with noise levels, though.)

 

If the argument is that it should be easier, or require lower perk levels, to successfully sneak into every attack volume in every POI, that's fair. Maybe the balance isn't right.

[Boidster]

15 hours ago, hiemfire said:

Unless they changed it from A19, my experience throwing rocks as a distraction and hunting ferals at night says otherwise. The sounds used are the same from what I remember, it just randomizes which one is played a bit between each investigating/targeting instance.

 

The XML implies that there's a different sound, but of course the actual .wav could be identical!

 

    <property name="SoundAlert" value="Enemies/Base_Zombie_Male/zombiemalealert"/>
    <property name="SoundSense" value="Enemies/Base_Zombie_Male/zombiemalesense"/>
    <property name="SoundHurt" value="Enemies/Base_Zombie_Male/zombiemalepain"/>
    <property name="SoundDeath" value="Enemies/Base_Zombie_Male/zombiemaledeath"/>
    <property name="SoundAttack" value="Enemies/Base_Zombie_Male/zombiemaleattack"/>

 

Edit to add: I extracted the sound files and learned

 

a) there are 3 different 'sense' sounds, 6 different 'alert' sounds, and 10 different 'attack' sounds for the standard template zombie male (there are variations and special sounds for some types of zombies i.e. crawler, screamer, demolisher)

b) 'sense' sounds are obviously different; 'alert' and 'attack' sounds are quite similar. I can't see any but the most focused player knowing, in the midst of a group of zombies plopping out of ceilings & closets, which sounds signify a real targeting/attack vs. which are just alerted zombies coming to investigate.

 

I actually think the game would play just fine if the 'sense' sounds were used for both 'sense' and 'alert'. You know a zombie is awake and aware - if it starts moving your way you'll know it's been alerted to a noise or whatever. Save the more vicious-sounding noises for real attacks.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Boidster (see edit history)

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, Boidster said:

It is perfectly possible to stealth an attack volume.

But it's not like some criticism isn't in order; your exchange made me wonder how well stealthing with skills can work. Went back to our warehouse, 5/5 stealth. I could sprint-sneak the first volume I've been testing, without waking either of the two there. Next 3 volumes seemed to agro to sprinting, but not to normal sneaking. They're a bit closer.

 

Oh, right, this was also *high noon*, with no regard to my light levels. The successful sneak-sprint showed my stealth meter at 19 (while I was failing at meter 1 in the night).

 

So the feel of the system isn't exactly there.

[Boidster]

3 hours ago, theFlu said:

So the feel of the system isn't exactly there.

 

That's fair. I think both "stealth is possible" and "the balance feels wrong" can both be true. What isn't true is "zombies auto-attack always in every volume". Unless maybe you are sprint-sneaking in daylight through all of them! Is sprint sneaking a technique that stealth players often use? Will balance be better if we can crouch-sprint through volumes undetected in broad daylight?

 

I think maybe one of the big issues is that attack volume stealth isn't based on noise (and to be fair to Scyris he did say "no matter how quiet you are"). Players think (understandably) that it should be based on noise, especially with the sleepers hidden here and there and not even looking at the player. The stealth meter currently is useless I think at least in the context of the attack volumes. It's an amalgam of light and noise and one half of that amalgamation is irrelevant to successfully sneaking in an attack volume.

 

Although current light level is an easy number to pull from the player data to calculate the "did they see me" numbers, I don't think it'd be too hard to use, say, the maximum noise volume of the player's crouched walk (or sprint) and do the same sort of calc with that. So if the whole warehouse is asleep and hidden, it's how loud your footsteps are that determine wakey wakey, not whether you're under an overhead light (which the sleepers can't even see).

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, Boidster said:

Unless maybe you are sprint-sneaking in daylight through all of them! Is sprint sneaking a technique that stealth players often use?

Hmm.. first I'll just point out that I tested it just for fun to see if it's possible; I was a little surprised it was. Why I brought it up was to highlight the absolute unreliableness of the stealth meter; a 19 succeeds where a 1 fails. And I figured it might be an interesting tidbit for anyone involved

 

Second, you're of course right in your implication, sprinting while trying to sneak is generally a bad idea. Then again, sprinting while sneaking could and IMO should be a part of the game play. Let's say you wake up accidentally one or two zeds of a small group; deciding between abandoning stealth entirely or trying to scoot away slow or scoot away fast gives a layer of decisions and game play.

 

And with the way the attack volumes are currently done, there's absolutely no reason NOT to sprint sneak the moment you wake something up, the possible things that didn't wake, are not going to wake from the added visibility of your sprint. Not sure if any can wake from you just getting up either, but .. I guess that would require a lot more testing..

 

And a little side-note, it's not like sneak sprinting isn't intended to be used ever; there's even a book specifically for it.

 

1 hour ago, Boidster said:

So if the whole warehouse is asleep and hidden, it's how loud your footsteps are that determine wakey wakey

Yeh, that would be more, umm, "sane", should we say. Then again, I'm having a hard time trying to grasp the noise-chase system, it feels a little wonky. I started a stealth playthru, feral sense is pretty brutal there so currently trying to just max out Agi for 5/5. Not exactly a perfect setting for learning, but I'm just having fun there..

 

And your second paragraph is basically why I would give frustrated players quite a bit of slack; they're complaining for a reason, they might not have gone thru a couple days of code reading and testing to figure out the exact complaint, but the complaint might still be pretty legit ..

 

EDIT: "fun" I said. Sweet jebus, 2 dire wolves as sleepers in a Tier 2 fetch (house_old_modular_3). Lets say I was happy about my stealth and willingness to exploit pathing. I was hungry going in, not so much going out ...

Edited February 6, 2022 by theFlu (see edit history)

[hiemfire]

6 hours ago, Boidster said:

Edit to add: I extracted the sound files and learned

 

a) there are 3 different 'sense' sounds, 6 different 'alert' sounds, and 10 different 'attack' sounds for the standard template zombie male (there are variations and special sounds for some types of zombies i.e. crawler, screamer, demolisher)

b) 'sense' sounds are obviously different; 'alert' and 'attack' sounds are quite similar. I can't see any but the most focused player knowing, in the midst of a group of zombies plopping out of ceilings & closets, which sounds signify a real targeting/attack vs. which are just alerted zombies coming to investigate.

Bolded might be what I was noticing during my night hunts. Though the "attack" sounds might be the ones they make when they are taking a swing at you (they ain't quiet when they are punching you in the mouth) and the "alert" sounds could be both when they have you targeted and when they are investigating.

Edited February 6, 2022 by hiemfire (see edit history)

[Rotor]

I saw this movie once:

 

"The never ending story"

 

[meganoth]

On 2/6/2022 at 2:11 AM, theFlu said:

Hmm.. first I'll just point out that I tested it just for fun to see if it's possible; I was a little surprised it was. Why I brought it up was to highlight the absolute unreliableness of the stealth meter; a 19 succeeds where a 1 fails. And I figured it might be an interesting tidbit for anyone involved

 

Second, you're of course right in your implication, sprinting while trying to sneak is generally a bad idea. Then again, sprinting while sneaking could and IMO should be a part of the game play. Let's say you wake up accidentally one or two zeds of a small group; deciding between abandoning stealth entirely or trying to scoot away slow or scoot away fast gives a layer of decisions and game play.

 

And with the way the attack volumes are currently done, there's absolutely no reason NOT to sprint sneak the moment you wake something up, the possible things that didn't wake, are not going to wake from the added visibility of your sprint. Not sure if any can wake from you just getting up either, but .. I guess that would require a lot more testing..

 

And a little side-note, it's not like sneak sprinting isn't intended to be used ever; there's even a book specifically for it.

 

I would assume that the existence of the book shows that sneak sprinting IS part of the game play, and without having read it it should be a risk or a bad idea.

 

On 2/6/2022 at 2:11 AM, theFlu said:

 

Yeh, that would be more, umm, "sane", should we say. Then again, I'm having a hard time trying to grasp the noise-chase system, it feels a little wonky. I started a stealth playthru, feral sense is pretty brutal there so currently trying to just max out Agi for 5/5. Not exactly a perfect setting for learning, but I'm just having fun there..

 

And your second paragraph is basically why I would give frustrated players quite a bit of slack; they're complaining for a reason, they might not have gone thru a couple days of code reading and testing to figure out the exact complaint, but the complaint might still be pretty legit ..

 

EDIT: "fun" I said. Sweet jebus, 2 dire wolves as sleepers in a Tier 2 fetch (house_old_modular_3). Lets say I was happy about my stealth and willingness to exploit pathing. I was hungry going in, not so much going out ...

 

[theFlu]

19 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I would assume that the existence of the book shows that sneak sprinting IS part of the game play

Indeed, seems like a feature that has been given at least _some_ thought. And I do use it occasionally, with something agroed too close for comfort and something else wandering around a little further. However I'm not entirely sure if I ever optimally should - or would it just always be better to actually sprint for a distance and then sneak properly.

 

22 minutes ago, meganoth said:

and without having read it it should be a risk or a bad idea.

Well, maybe. Although the current book only removes stamina use, so I don't really see it making that much of a difference right now.