So I decided to track Sleeper volumes in Poi's and how many are ambushes.

[NekoPawtato]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

I don't really disagree with anything you've laid out there; I was just pointing out that it doesn't really make any difference to the experience whether a zed is walking to me or to the spot under my feet. You'll have to maneuver like you have agro anyway, unless you're willing to risk getting pummeled.

To differentiate between "a zombie woke up, but doesn't detect you" vs "a zombie woke up and actively coming after you", what if instead of walking to the exact spot the player was at, there is a little variation to their behavior when the player is undetected?

 

For example maybe if they don't detect the player when they wake up, then have them go in whatever direction the zombie is already oriented in, or whatever direction they end up facing when they get up (if they are laying down). Say the zombie is north and looking towards the south, if the player is west of the zombie when it wakes up, the zombie would continue straight south, rather than going west towards the player. (there might be cases where the zombie needs to consider boundaries so it won't walk off a roof though)

Or instead of going straight for the block the player was at, have them wander towards a block that is X number of blocks to the left/right of the player's block, so still in their general direction, but you may be able to tell that they are veering slightly off course. (Maybe they got distracted by that shiny humming refrigerator)

 

At least that way, if the player sees that the zombie woke up, but is not honing into their location, they can determine that it is not actively coming after them.

[Roland]

2 hours ago, NekoPawtato said:

To differentiate between "a zombie woke up, but doesn't detect you" vs "a zombie woke up and actively coming after you", what if instead of walking to the exact spot the player was at, there is a little variation to their behavior when the player is undetected?

 

For example maybe if they don't detect the player when they wake up, then have them go in whatever direction the zombie is already oriented in, or whatever direction they end up facing when they get up (if they are laying down). Say the zombie is north and looking towards the south, if the player is west of the zombie when it wakes up, the zombie would continue straight south, rather than going west towards the player. (there might be cases where the zombie needs to consider boundaries so it won't walk off a roof though)

Or instead of going straight for the block the player was at, have them wander towards a block that is X number of blocks to the left/right of the player's block, so still in their general direction, but you may be able to tell that they are veering slightly off course. (Maybe they got distracted by that shiny humming refrigerator)

 

At least that way, if the player sees that the zombie woke up, but is not honing into their location, they can determine that it is not actively coming after them.

 

Well, for one thing that isn't how the AI works. They go to the last spot they heard the player make noise. You can see this very clearly if you go out at night and shoot an arrow at a zombie and hit it but don't kill it. Take five steps to the left from where you shot the arrow and remain crouched and the zombie will run to where you were and not to where you are now. I think that if zombies just started moving in whatever direction they were facing whenever they heard a noise instead of moving in the direction of the noise that would really detract from their general behavior.

 

Much easier is for players who come to know the truth about zombie behavior to adapt their own behavior for advantage. As soon as a zombie crashes out of its hiding place, move quickly crouched away from where you were when they came out. You will see them go to your old location and not towards you-- unless they do in fact detect you. I would even say that learning to get good at this reactionary dodge and crouch maneuver is worth the occasional time you may get hit first by the zombie. There will be times you think you are hidden but aren't and couldn't quite tell if it knew where you were but with practice it will get better.

 

In A19 when there actually were attack volumes you could still retreat and hide and many times the zombies would forget about you before they found you and you could then return and stealth kill them. For me, that became an actual player stealth skill (as opposed to a purchased character stealth skill) and felt quite rewarding. I think this new situation could also come to feel rewarding to those who develop the actual player skill of maintaining stealth.

 

@theFlu says there is no functional difference between a zombie that is unaware of the player but walks right to where they heard the noise under the player's feet and a zombie that is aware of the player and targeting them. That is not technically true because in the first case (again easily testable at night out in the open if the close quarters of indoors is too worrisome) if the player moves away from that spot the zombie won't follow them and will ignore them, while in the second case the zombie will follow the player until the player has been out of view for a specified amount of time. Of course if the player exhibits poor stealth skills and doesn't move away immediately from that spot then there is a good chance the unaware zombie will quickly change to aware anyway.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

This whole aware vs unaware phase sorta gives me metal gear solid vibes when the enemies had question marks over there heads when they were alerted but not fully aware of the players presence lol...

 

Maybe we need question marks and exclamation marks over the zombies heads lol....

 

 

[bloodmoth13]

Make throwing rocks trigger ambushes without alerting them to your location.

Ambushes can be triggered now but stealth still works, only instead of having to snipe motionless sleeping zombies and getting free hits you have to kill moving zombies that could alert to your location.

 

 

 

I honestly think stealth players have had it too easy for too long, shooting the door off a cupboard and watching a zombie stand there motionless when a door just burst into splinters right in front of his face is silly.

 

There is a state between sleeping and hunting you down that needs to be used more.

Zombies should be awake more often in houses and not just be in a situation where they are either actively hunting you down through a wall with gps or sleeping till you step on them.

Asleep > Awake > Alert.

Currently its either asleep or alert, we need a lot more of 'awake' where zombies are docile but active! There is a lot of gameplay potential surrounding that state, like luring zombies out of a room for a stealth kill or having to aim at a moving target instead of a stationary one or having a zombie sneak up on you or trying to avoid a 'patrol' and sneak past them.

Hell the actual 'asleep' zombies would be much more fun if you went to kill the single zombie standing in a room and the rest burst from the walls. Or trying to sneak past and they slowly burst out one by one. 

 

 

 

 

[Roland]

6 hours ago, Laz Man said:

Maybe we need question marks and exclamation marks over the zombies heads lol....

 

or......I dunno....an eye that opens and closes depending on whether the player is hunted or not. There was a game that had that once....

[theFlu]

5 hours ago, Roland said:

@theFlu says there is no functional difference between a zombie that is unaware of the player but walks right to where they heard the noise under the player's feet and a zombie that is aware of the player and targeting them. That is not technically true because in the first case (again easily testable at night out in the open if the close quarters of indoors is too worrisome) if the player moves away from that spot the zombie won't follow them and will ignore them, while in the second case the zombie will follow the player until the player has been out of view for a specified amount of time.

Indeed, we agree, there's a technical difference. One that you can (possibly) see having the AI data displayed.

 

Functional difference?

in case one) zombie moving towards you, you need to move away or it attacks you.

in case two) zombie moving towards you, you need to move away or it attacks you.

 

After you've moved away, you sometimes find out that it doesn't follow you. That's a slight plus whenever it happens, you'll save 20 secs from your normal agro-dropping routine. Not exactly a functional difference though.

 

And we're talking sleepers here, "ambush", remember. Testing the feature outdoors to see the difference... functional difference; the difference is so great that I can't test it in the environment I'm supposed to use it?

 

I know I can throw rocks and gather a pile of zeds outdoors, but throwing rocks at heads of sleepers does very little. Mostly reduces the rock counter on my tool belt by one.

[Roland]

2 minutes ago, theFlu said:

in case one) zombie moving towards you, you need to move away or it attacks you.

in case two) zombie moving towards you, you need to move away or and it attacks you.

 

Fixed that. The main difference is that in case one if you move the zombie does not move towards you and doesn't attack, and in case two if you move the zombie still moves towards you and attacks. That is a big difference you are glossing over. Sure, you as the player move in both cases but the outcomes are so different, it is blatant.

 

6 minutes ago, theFlu said:

After you've moved away, you sometimes find out that it doesn't follow you. That's a slight plus whenever it happens, you'll save 20 secs from your normal agro-dropping routine. Not exactly a functional difference though.

 

That is simply indicative that you did not react fast enough or perhaps the room did not have enough shadows. If you freeze up when it happens and wait for the zombie to move towards you and then you move the zombie will likely follow. But if you crouch and move while it is still ragdolling then it isn't just "sometimes".

 

8 minutes ago, theFlu said:

And we're talking sleepers here, "ambush", remember. Testing the feature outdoors to see the difference... functional difference; the difference is so great that I can't test it in the environment I'm supposed to use it?

 

I suggested doing it outside first because it is an easier environment to witness the behavior. You don't have to think fast and react quickly. You can set up the shot and shoot them from a distance and move aside and see how they go to where you used to be and not to where you currently are. Then, you can start practicing it indoors. I never said you can't test it indoors...lol. You put those words in my mouth. I said practice makes perfect and you know I meant reacting to actual interior locations.

 

11 minutes ago, theFlu said:

I know I can throw rocks and gather a pile of zeds outdoors, but throwing rocks at heads of sleepers does very little. Mostly reduces the rock counter on my tool belt by one.

 

Again, you throw the rock while they are ragdolling not while they are still asleep. Sorry for the confusion.

[theFlu]

3 minutes ago, Roland said:

The main difference is that in case one if you move the zombie does not move towards you and doesn't attack, and in case two if you move the zombie still moves towards you and attacks.

You have to react to either type by moving. Moving will drop agro.

 

Wait, is that it - do you know that when an agroed zed no longer sees you, it will also drop the chase? Even stealth is sufficient for this, line of sight is more certain of course. Shoot a zed in the night, scoot 5-10 meters, watch the agroed zed run towards where you stood before and stand there. Even after taking a hit. I'm testing this right now - I just took a hit from a Feral Arlene (so definitely agroed), ran ahead of her for 10 meters and crouched right in front of her. Intuitively I was too close for her to stop, but she actually stopped her chase right in my face. At the pause menu showing AI as "Alert 4.90, canBrk, 1 Look, wait 1.6"

A20.1 (b6)

[Roland]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

You have to react to either type by moving.

Yes but there are two parties involved in the scenario and the zombie behavior is different for each and at least as important as the player behavior. You are correct, though, that in both cases the player moves. 

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

Wait, is that it - do you know that when an agroed zed no longer sees you, it will also drop the chase? Even stealth is sufficient for this, line of sight is more certain of course. Shoot a zed in the night, scoot 5-10 meters, watch the agroed zed run towards where you stood before and stand there. Even after taking a hit. I'm testing this right now - I just took a hit from a Feral Arlene (so definitely agroed), ran ahead of her for 10 meters and crouched right in front of her. Intuitively I was too close for her to stop, but she actually stopped her chase right in my face. At the pause menu showing AI as "Alert 4.90, canBrk, 1 Look, wait 1.6"

A20.1 (b6)

A zombie that is alert and aggroed but can’t see you will not chase you. If you damage them or they heard a noise they will move to the spot you were at when the event that alerted them happened but they are not chasing you and yes, if you crouch in darkness they will stop very nearby without noticing you. A zombie that is alert and aggroed and can see you will chase you and not give up until a certain amount of time passes once you are out of their view. This is the behavior that can be exploited even indoors. 

[theFlu]

28 minutes ago, Roland said:

the zombie behavior is different for each

Could you explain that part to me, like I'm five?

 

Falls out of closet

Runs to sound-origin

Once there, attacks the player if player's current stealth isn't sufficient to prevent it

 

Which is this, and what is the other?

 

EDIT: I didn't see your latter para, I think you added it in after I opened. But honestly I still don't see the difference. What you describe there is dependent only on the question "does the zed see me currently" - which is a stealth check.

Edited February 2, 2022 by theFlu (see edit history)

[Boidster]

On 2/2/2022 at 3:26 AM, bloodmoth13 said:

There is a state between sleeping and hunting you down that needs to be used more.

 

I think maybe it's used more than you think, but also it would be nice if zombies were spawned into a wandering/patrol state instead of just sleeping/hidden. I agree that shooting the closet door in front of a sleeper ought to wake it up, but currently the game doesn't model block break sounds so all the zombie hears is the quiet (?) *thunk* of your crossbow. Which is centered across the room where you made the shot.

 

But once awakened, if you are a skilled, perked stealth player in a dark room, you have a very good chance to avoid any "hunting you down" zombies. Most of them will wake up into either "wander" mode or "investigate noise" mode. The latter will cause zombies to bust through walls perhaps, but they are not GPS-ing to you. I think that is one of the biggest misconceptions since they reworked stealth in A19. The "I heard something" zombies are confused for "targeting the player" zombies, when they are not.

 

I highly recommend people read /config/stealth.txt. It lays it out pretty well (not in code - normal human speak).

 

Edit: there is more nuance in this than I originally posted. See later in the thread (pg 5/6) where Faatal gives some info and we start tracking the behavior of 'attack volume' zombies. They do have a chance to lock onto you even if they couldn't really see you, but that can be defeated by stealth (From the Shadows perk).

 

On 2/2/2022 at 9:58 AM, theFlu said:

Falls out of closet

Runs to sound-origin

Once there, attacks the player if player's current stealth isn't sufficient to prevent it

 

That describes a zombie running the "ApproachDistraction" AI task. The zombie heard something, but has no target on the player. Pretty easily avoided by a stealth player, since the zombie's direction of movement will not change as the player moves. They're just going towards a spot.

 

A zombie running "ApproachAndAttackTarget" AI task looks like this:

1. Falls out of closet
2. Runs directly at player, even if player is moving
3. If player runs away far enough or enters a dark enough stealth posture, revert to "ApproachDistraction" or "Wander" AI task
4. Otherwise, keep chasing/attacking the player

For a highly-skilled stealth player, step 3 there might be so easy that the difference between the two is trivial. Which is an excellent endorsement of the value of the stealth perks.

 

It's really not different from any other stealth game - if the guard hears something, he comes to investigate. If he doesn't see anything he shrugs and goes back to wandering around/patrolling. If he sees you, he attacks. If he saw you at the very start, he chases you as far as he can still see you, after which maybe he goes to the last place he saw you and checks around, but then returns to wander/patrol. The zombies behave the same way. (It might be that you don't see any difference between "heard something" and "actively targeting you" behaviors in other games either. Which is completely fair and consistent!)

Edited February 4, 2022 by Boidster (see edit history)

[theFlu]

41 minutes ago, Boidster said:

A zombie running "ApproachAndAttackTarget" AI task looks like this:

1. Falls out of closet
2. Runs directly at player, even if player is moving
3. If player runs away far enough or enters a dark enough stealth posture, revert to "ApproachDistraction" or "Wander" AI task
4. Otherwise, keep chasing/attacking the player

In my testing the "AppoachAndAttackTarget" doesn't seem to survive a stealth check though? It's not necessarily easy to accomplish, but I can drop a Darlene while she has line of sight with just stealthing. Making the functional end result a current-stealth-check for both cases, no?

[Roland]

41 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Could you explain that part to me, like I'm five?

 

I think Boidster did a great job but probably more for age ten and up...

 

Behavior 1

 

Zombie falls from ceiling and ragdolls unaware of player but wants investigate noise

It recovers from the ragdoll and moves to where the noise happens

It does not try to attack any player unless it sees a player

That allows a player to crouch and shoot it in the head for full stealth bonus

 

Behavior 2

 

Zombie falls from ceiling and ragdolls but it saw the player

It recovers from the ragdoll and moves toward the player

It tries to attack the player and will chase the player and not give up until it can no longer see the player for <timer affected by perk>

If the player shoots the zombie in the head there is no stealth bonus

 

In both cases the player can react by moving from their original spot. But in the first case the player is not under pressure from an attacking zombie. The player can throw a rock and the zombie will go to where the rock lands (incidentally, so will any and all zombies ringing the POI beating on the walls....). the player can shoot the zombie in the head with a silent weapon for the stealth bonus and if there are multiple zombies without alerting the other zombies.

 

With the second behavior the zombie just chases the player wherever the player moves attacking them so the player most likely will have to use a strong melee weapon or a loud range weapon with rapid fire to get rid of the pressure. So no stealth. The player could run away around a few corners, maybe shut a door, and wait and then return and stealthily kill the zombies that have by now exited their aggro state and are just wandering around now.

 

That was probably an 8 year old explanation.

[Boidster]

4 minutes ago, Roland said:

until it can no longer see the player for <timer affected by perk>

If the player shoots the zombie in the head there is no stealth bonus

 

Forgot about the timer and losing the stealth bonus. Good points.

[Roland]

2 minutes ago, theFlu said:

In my testing the "AppoachAndAttackTarget" doesn't seem to survive a stealth check though? It's not necessarily easy to accomplish, but I can drop a Darlene while she has line of sight with just stealthing. Making the functional end result a current-stealth-check for both cases, no?

 

Correct. ApproachAndAttackTarget cannot be stealthed unless and until the player gets out of sight and allows the timer to resolve. Once a zombie sees you and knows you are there you can't just crouch and it immediately loses you (ahem...that was A16 at night)

 

As far as I know, the stealth check is only used to determine whether a sleeper will wake up. Failing a stealth check does not mean that the zombie saw you. It means that it did not remain asleep. When it wakes up it either sees you right away and moves to attack you or it does not see you and it moves to investigate the noise that woke it up. When you are in stealth with awake zombies in the vicinity the game is not rolling stealth checks. If you are in a state of stealth and a zombie is nearby you will stay in stealth unless the zombie sees you.

 

So when you are outside at night there are no stealth checks because you are not activating a sleeper volume. Those zombies outside cannot see you so even if you wound them with an arrow and then back up a bit you are still in stealth because they can't see you. They just know where the arrow came from or heard the twang and come running to investigate that and if it is dark enough so that they don't see you there is no stealth check that you can fail.

[Roland]

I just want to add a bit of criticism for the game to all of this. I understand that because of the tight quarters and light sources it probably isn't always possible to pull off a stealthy reaction. I think this is another reason to get rid of the light trails or as @Viktoriusiii has suggested at the very least make them one shot destroyable with an arrow or a melee weapon. But better in my opinion to just get rid of the inexplicable flashlights and lamps that somehow have power and are pointing at holes in the walls. I hate them and if removing them would facilitate stealth a bit more I think it is another great reason to get rid of them. But shooting out all the lights could also be interesting as long as it was just one shot for each. 

 

Maybe a modlet that reduces all light hp to 1 would be cool

[Boidster]

Because it's not confusing enough, I'll point out that "stealth" has sound and vision components so "a stealth check" can mean a couple of different things. And the game models it all from the zombie's point of view, i.e.

 

1) Was that sound above the hearing threshold of Z

2) Can Z detect an entity within its cone of vision

 

For D&D nerds, it's the DM rolling to see if the monsters hear you, not you rolling vs your Stealth skill. The perks and mods and books make you harder to hear and harder to see. Only if you are seen, though, will a zombie target you for attack.

 

6 minutes ago, Roland said:

So when you are outside at night there are no stealth checks because you are not activating a sleeper volume.

 

 I guess it depends on how you define "stealth check". I think they are always (or often) checking for visible entities within their cone of vision. To the extent [zombie vision] vs. [player illumination & distance] = "stealth check" it's arguable they are making them all the time. I'm not sure there's a significant difference between sleeper behavior and biome spawn behavior in this regard, with the exception that sleepers begin 'sleeping' and only a noise (or possibly a volume trigger) can wake them up.

 

I dunno, it could just be different definitions of "stealth check" in our heads.

[Roland]

10 minutes ago, Boidster said:

 I guess it depends on how you define "stealth check". I think they are always (or often) checking for visible entities within their cone of vision. To the extent [zombie vision] vs. [player illumination & distance] = "stealth check" it's arguable they are making them all the time. I'm not sure there's a significant difference between sleeper behavior and biome spawn behavior in this regard, with the exception that sleepers begin 'sleeping' and only a noise (or possibly a volume trigger) can wake them up.

 

I dunno, it could just be different definitions of "stealth check" in our heads.

 

The difference is that the stealth check that is rolled when you enter a sleeper volume is a random check made by the game and regardless of what you as a player is doing you can fail that check and one or more zombies can wake up. The only thing you can do as a player is increase your stealth skill which reduces the chance of failing that skill check. When you are outside there is no random roll of the dice to see if a zombie detects you. You are only detected if you enter into their cone of vision period. So it is a kind of a check but it is one the player through skill can navigate and will only fail by accident or noobiness. 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[theFlu]

17 minutes ago, Roland said:

Correct. ApproachAndAttackTarget cannot be stealthed unless and until the player gets out of sight and allows the timer to resolve. Once a zombie sees you and knows you are there you can't just crouch and it immediately loses you (ahem...that was A16 at night)

Ehh, you've misread me, probably due to the term "Line of Sight" having taken its negative as its meaning. I was arguing - and doing - exactly what you call impossible.

 

I've now cleared half of the Crack-a-book tower by:

Showing myself to a zed

Ensuring it goes into "ApproachAndAttackTarget" on the debug info

Running away in the tight space offered

Stealthing while the zed HAS line of sight to me. It loses agro if I manage to succeed the stealth check*. Doesn't need a block in between us, just a successful moment of stealth.

 

The "stealth check" I refer to is the mechanic as Boid describes; zeds are always checking if they can detect you. If they can't, they stop chasing.

Sleeper volumes may or may not have a separate check at entering, that I don't know.

[hiemfire]

2 minutes ago, Roland said:

I just want to add a bit of criticism for the game to all of this. I understand that because of the tight quarters and light sources it probably isn't always possible to pull off a stealthy reaction. I think this is another reason to get rid of the light trails or as @Viktoriusiii has suggested at the very least make them one shot destroyable with an arrow or a melee weapon. But better in my opinion to just get rid of the inexplicable flashlights and lamps that somehow have power and are pointing at holes in the walls. I hate them and if removing them would facilitate stealth a bit more I think it is another great reason to get rid of them. But shooting out all the lights could also be interesting as long as it was just one shot for each. 

 

Maybe a modlet that reduces all light hp to 1 would be cool

They'd need to change where the impact and break "noises" are generated from for it to work. It's why we can shoot out a closet door from across the room and the occupant of that closet doesn't "hear" it but if we do from only a couple paces out the occupant gets grumpy.

[Boidster]

13 minutes ago, Roland said:

Maybe a modlet that reduces all light hp to 1 would be cool

 

[Roland]

1 minute ago, theFlu said:

Ehh, you've misread me, probably due to the term "Line of Sight" having taken its negative as its meaning. I was arguing - and doing - exactly what you call impossible.

 

I've now cleared half of the Crack-a-book tower by:

Showing myself to a zed

Ensuring it goes into "ApproachAndAttackTarget" on the debug info

Running away in the tight space offered

Stealthing while the zed HAS line of sight to me. It loses agro if I manage to succeed the stealth check*. Doesn't need a block in between us, just a successful moment of stealth.

 

The "stealth check" I refer to is the mechanic as Boid describes; zeds are always checking if they can detect you. If they can't, they stop chasing.

Sleeper volumes may or may not have a separate check at entering, that I don't know.

 

Are you fully perked into stealth for these tests? There is a timer that counts down once they lose sight of you and I can't remember but I think unperked it is 90 seconds while fully perked it is almost instantaneous.

2 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

They'd need to change where the impact and break "noises" are generated from for it to work. It's why we can shoot out a closet door from across the room and the occupant of that closet doesn't "hear" it but if we do from only a couple paces out the occupant gets grumpy.

 

That would also be extremely cool if the noise the zombies investigated was the breaking light rather than where the arrow came from. That could open up all sorts of fun stealthy gameplay-- particularly if bandits followed the same rules for investigating sounds.

[theFlu]

3 minutes ago, Roland said:

Are you fully perked into stealth for these tests? There is a timer that counts down once they lose sight of you and I can't remember but I think unperked it is 90 seconds while fully perked it is almost instantaneous.

Butt naked, no skills. Wouldn't have the patience to dance for a minute.

[NekoPawtato]

So if I understand right, if a bunch of zombies wake up in a room and you throw a rock in the opposite direction, any zombies that are awake but don't detect you will run towards the rock and any zombies that are actively aggroing you will ignore the rock?

Just trying to see if there is a fast/easy way to discern between the two modes without waiting for them to walk all the way over to you

[Boidster]

3 minutes ago, Roland said:

The only thing you can do as a player is increase your stealth skill which reduces the chance of failing that skill check. 

 

Hmm...I'm going to go poke into the code to see about this. From what I saw/posted earlier I don't actually think it works that way, but maybe. Everything I saw implied that it was always about "can the zombie hear you". There is no automatic, random, "roll vs. player's stealth skill" in there that I saw, but there is a fair amount of noobiness in my code-poking so I'll look at it again.

 

I'm pretty sure that it is only zombies who can make "skill checks" vs stealth. And it is never random. It is "was this sound above the threshold of hearing" or "is the player entity visible at X distance and with Y illumination". Maybe I'm arguing semantics, but when entering a volume the player doesn't "make a check" of any type. The zombies may get to make a check vs hearing or sight, but never the player.