Server Gripes

[hotpoon]

I'm playing on a multiplayer server with a few friends, and I have some brief negative feedback that I hope will be taken constructively...

 

1) Updating the game should not overwrite the server xml file

If you update 7DtD, your single player game settings don't change, so not sure why the server settings xml file needs to be overwritten.  It's quite inconvenient to have to go reconfigure all those settings every time there's an update. 

 

2) The T5 towers are unplayable

Any time someone on the server enters one of the T5 towers, others in a different town on the same map get such a hectic FPS drop that it's like a slideshow.  The towers were always taxing to those exploring them, but I don't remember them being a problem for other people on the server that aren't even near it. Surely this is a serious optimization problem?

 

Lack of optimization in general worries me. This game keeps getting more and more beautiful, but the FPS worse and worse. Is it a really a good idea to introduce things like waving grass, jiggling bits, and higher res textures when what so many people are really asking for is more zombies? Maybe TFP have some optimization tricks up their sleeves...I hope so.

[Snolune]

Agreed, was a pita to have to go reconfigure the server xml file. The update should have at least renamed the original as a backup.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, hotpoon said:

I'm playing on a multiplayer server with a few friends, and I have some brief negative feedback that I hope will be taken constructively...

 

1) Updating the game should not overwrite the server xml file

If you update 7DtD, your single player game settings don't change, so not sure why the server settings xml file needs to be overwritten.  It's quite inconvenient to have to go reconfigure all those settings every time there's an update. 

 

Actually the single player game settings being kept is quite a big source of problems. So everyone is told to clear his/her settings by hand (via launcher-tab "tools"), but many don't do this and get into trouble. In reality the game should do this automatically.

 

If I may offer a suggestion: Always make a copy of your current serverconfig.xml and the unedited serverconfig.xml, When a new alpha arrives use a file difference utility to check for the differences between old and new vanilla config files. You can then reuse your old serverconfig.xml but must carefully add anything that is different between old and new vanilla serverconfig.xml.

 

And between experimentals of the same alpha I simply copy the backup copy of my serverconfig.xml as last step of the update process (if there is nothing in the changelog about it being changed).

 

1 hour ago, hotpoon said:

 

2) The T5 towers are unplayable

Any time someone on the server enters one of the T5 towers, others in a different town on the same map get such a hectic FPS drop that it's like a slideshow.  The towers were always taxing to those exploring them, but I don't remember them being a problem for other people on the server that aren't even near it. Surely this is a serious optimization problem?

 

Lack of optimization in general worries me. This game keeps getting more and more beautiful, but the FPS worse and worse. Is it a really a good idea to introduce things like waving grass, jiggling bits, and higher res textures when what so many people are really asking for is more zombies? Maybe TFP have some optimization tricks up their sleeves...I hope so.

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[SylenThunder]

17 hours ago, hotpoon said:

1) Updating the game should not overwrite the server xml file

If you update 7DtD, your single player game settings don't change, so not sure why the server settings xml file needs to be overwritten.  It's quite inconvenient to have to go reconfigure all those settings every time there's an update. 

Because for an update like a20, things change. Settings can get added or removed. This is considered a critical file, so it gets updated with the client. Server admins who know what they are doing never use default files for the start batch or config. It's expected for the file to be over-written with an update when a game is in Alpha development.

 

17 hours ago, hotpoon said:

2) The T5 towers are unplayable

Any time someone on the server enters one of the T5 towers, others in a different town on the same map get such a hectic FPS drop that it's like a slideshow.  The towers were always taxing to those exploring them, but I don't remember them being a problem for other people on the server that aren't even near it. Surely this is a serious optimization problem?

Personally, I haven't noticed a massive drop.  Sure it'll get into the 50's or 60's sometimes, but it's still perfectly playable.  Maybe your settings need to be adjusted?

 

Lack of optimization is expected in Alpha development. Spending more time on it than it takes to make it playable is a waste of developer time. Beta is when you start working on serious optimization. After all the core features and major engine changes are finalized.

[RyanX]

22 hours ago, hotpoon said:

Lack of optimization in general worries me. This game keeps getting more and more beautiful, but the FPS worse and worse. Is it a really a good idea to introduce things like waving grass, jiggling bits, and higher res textures when what so many people are really asking for is more zombies? Maybe TFP have some optimization tricks up their sleeves...I hope so.

This lack of optimization has been worrying server owners for a few Alphas now.  I personally would take the old crappy RWG system, zombies, simple POI's with good optimization over today's overattention to appearance.  They took the wrong path IMO.  I feel like they should have stopped and optimized around A16.4 then started work on appearances again.  It's the old "gameplay vs graphics" argument.  Obviously TFP can't do both, like many devs.

[minisith]

On 12/24/2021 at 6:57 AM, RyanX said:

This lack of optimization has been worrying server owners for a few Alphas now.  I personally would take the old crappy RWG system, zombies, simple POI's with good optimization over today's overattention to appearance.  They took the wrong path IMO.  I feel like they should have stopped and optimized around A16.4 then started work on appearances again.  It's the old "gameplay vs graphics" argument.  Obviously TFP can't do both, like many devs.

You can actually still play past betas.   I, like always,  disagree with your posts.   

 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@SylenThunder Having a PC way better than the recommended specs using only SSD´s, i get drops in and near the skyscrapers down to 40-35 and it stutters sometimes, even when using medium settings, having turned off motion blur, bloom, depth of field, SSAO and SS reflections. SP that is. No problems in any other games.

 

Sure the R5 3600 isn´t a top CPU, but it is way better than what is recommended. GTX1070 and 32GB RAM @3200Mhz on a 60Hz FHD monitor. It´s time to update the requirements on steam. Someone with the recommended spec will have a very bad time playing this game even on low.  Can´t imagine that downtown cities are playable with minimum requirements at all tbh.

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[SylenThunder]

5 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@SylenThunder Having a PC way better than the recommended specs using only SSD´s, i get drops in and near the skyscrapers down to 40-35 and it stutters sometimes, even when using medium settings, having turned off motion blur, bloom, depth of field, SSAO and SS reflections. SP that is. No problems in any other games.

 

Sure the R5 3600 isn´t a top CPU, but it is way better than what is recommended. GTX1070 and 32GB RAM @3200Mhz on a 60Hz FHD monitor. It´s time to update the requirements on steam. Someone with the recommended spec will have a very bad time playing this game even on low.  Can´t imagine that downtown cities are playable with minimum requirements at all tbh.

 

 

 

I have advocated for having the requirements clarified considerably more than they are. As currently stated an old q6600 Core 2 Quad almost meets "recommended" specs. Anything later than an i7-7700k or a 3rd-Gen Ryzen should be fine for the recommended specs, but anything before that is minimum. (I had a good run with my i7-3930k, but it was overclocked to the point where it ran as well as an i7-8700k)

 

Though I am curious about your issue there. I'm running an R9 3900x, 32GB 3200Mhz RAM, and a GTX 1070 going to a 1440p 144Hz monitor.  I may get dips into the 60's sometimes, but the only time I see the 40's is on a really busy horde night with over 30 zeds on screen.

Here is what I am running for graphics options, and I basically doubled the settings for Dynamic Mesh.

[hotpoon]

On 12/24/2021 at 9:24 AM, SylenThunder said:

Because for an update like a20, things change. Settings can get added or removed. This is considered a critical file, so it gets updated with the client. Server admins who know what they are doing never use default files for the start batch or config. It's expected for the file to be over-written with an update when a game is in Alpha development.

 

Personally, I haven't noticed a massive drop.  Sure it'll get into the 50's or 60's sometimes, but it's still perfectly playable.  Maybe your settings need to be adjusted?

 

Lack of optimization is expected in Alpha development. Spending more time on it than it takes to make it playable is a waste of developer time. Beta is when you start working on serious optimization. After all the core features and major engine changes are finalized.

 

 

I don't know why you think the config would be a critical file that's expected to be overwritten. If they make changes to it sure, but if they don't then including it in the update just creates unnecessary work for the server admin.  I'm not a game developer, but I do a lot of web maintenance, and when I update a website, I only upload the files that I've actually changed. Similarly when WordPress pushes out an update, they don't overwrite the config file with all your database settings etc.  That would be absurd.

 

On the optimization point, I think you're quite lucky not to have noticed.  I have an oldish CPU, but a GTX1080 and 32 gigs of ram which runs a myriad of other games very well.  I have most of my settings in 7DtD on Medium with all the extra jazz like bloom etc turned off, and I get 50-60fps usually.  When someone enters the tower though, it doesn't matter where I am on the map, my FPS goes down to single digits. It's a total slideshow at that point. Horde nights are also unplayable so we switch them off now.

 

I'm aware that the bulk of optimization is supposed to happen in beta, which is why I say I hope they have something up their sleeves.

 

 

[meganoth]

22 minutes ago, hotpoon said:

 

 

I don't know why you think the config would be a critical file that's expected to be overwritten. If they make changes to it sure, but if they don't then including it in the update just creates unnecessary work for the server admin.  I'm not a game developer, but I do a lot of web maintenance, and when I update a website, I only upload the files that I've actually changed. Similarly when WordPress pushes out an update, they don't overwrite the config file with all your database settings etc.  That would be absurd.

 

Lets say A19 changed serverconfig.xml and therefore distributed a new file. But A20 didn't, so there isn't a new one included. Now someone playing A18 and suddenly deciding to play A20 would not get the change in A19. Bam.

 

I actually think this could be handled better by the game, but likewise admins are supposed to know how to deal with config files depending on their distribution method.

 

22 minutes ago, hotpoon said:

 

On the optimization point, I think you're quite lucky not to have noticed.  I have an oldish CPU, but a GTX1080 and 32 gigs of ram which runs a myriad of other games very well.  I have most of my settings in 7DtD on Medium with all the extra jazz like bloom etc turned off, and I get 50-60fps usually.  When someone enters the tower though, it doesn't matter where I am on the map, my FPS goes down to single digits. It's a total slideshow at that point. Horde nights are also unplayable so we switch them off now.

 

GPU doesn't matter at all when the game is limited by some other resource like CPU or memory throughput. The weakest link in a chain defines its strength, and 7D2D was always unusual in using more CPU than GPU power compared to "normal" games

 

But I think there is still a  bug in A20 anyway. In one of my games I got a 50% FPS drop just by looking into a direction inside a wilderness POI. Which should not happen because occlusion was turned on. And occlussion is specifically to prevent that. Outside was just forest. The same forest as in other directions that did not tank the game

 

22 minutes ago, hotpoon said:

 

I'm aware that the bulk of optimization is supposed to happen in beta, which is why I say I hope they have something up their sleeves.

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[JCrook1028]

21 minutes ago, hotpoon said:

I have an oldish CPU

which is far more important than the gpu in this game, hence your comment about running other games is really pointless.

[Pernicious]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

GPU doesn't matter at all when the game is limited by some other resource like CPU or memory throughput. The weakest link in a chain defines its strength, and 7D2D was always unusual in using more CPU than GPU power compared to "normal" games

 

 

 

It has frustrated me that so many people do not understand how PCs work. I mentally know that they have no reason to, any more than I know how quantum computing works, but then even when you explain it to them, they go on complaining as if they did not understand. I've seen people claim they are running GTX 3090s, "and if the game can't get 60fps on the best GPU there is, it's @%$#"... Then you point out that their 7700k and 8Gb of RAM is killing their performance, and they'll keep posting that the game is not "optimised", as if they know what it means.

 

Would it be worth putting up a sticky regarding how to assess whether a player's PC is likely to be the bottle neck? I'm happy to write a draft if a dev wants to then confirm it is correct and polish it.

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Pernicious said:

 

It has frustrated me that so many people do not understand how PCs work. I mentally know that they have no reason to, any more than I know how quantum computing works, but then even when you explain it to them, they go on complaining as if they did not understand. I've seen people claim they are running GTX 3090s, "and if the game can't get 60fps on the best GPU there is, it's @%$#"... Then you point out that their 7700k and 8Gb of RAM is killing their performance, and they'll keep posting that the game is not "optimised", as if they know what it means.

 

Would it be worth putting up a sticky regarding how to assess whether a player's PC is likely to be the bottle neck? I'm happy to write a draft if a dev wants to then confirm it is correct and polish it.

 

Not for me to decide. But I don't think it is worth your time, so many parameters influence performance: All the graphical setttings, every new patch, cpu, cache size, OS, graphics library,... Just too many moving pieces.

 

[Pernicious]

12 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Not for me to decide. But I don't think it is worth your time, so many parameters influence performance: All the graphical setttings, every new patch, cpu, cache size, OS, graphics library,... Just too many moving pieces.

 

 

Yeah, you're right. I started just putting down some dot points first on the hardware, then how it's configured, then software, and all the different settings, then different types of optimisation. It started looking more like a book than a post.

 

It just is a bit frustrating that there are tens, if not hundreds of thousands of players, playing without complaint (but we never hear about them because they're not having problems), and the forums - Especially General, not just support, is jammed up with posts about the game being slow, who just assume that it's the game's fault, even though they're only one of dozens having the issue.

[SylenThunder]

3 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Not for me to decide. But I don't think it is worth your time, so many parameters influence performance: All the graphical setttings, every new patch, cpu, cache size, OS, graphics library,... Just too many moving pieces.

 

Absolutely correct. I've shown a number of times how small things like CPU clock speed or RAM timing can have a very notable impact on performance. I've also managed to pull a stable 60 FPS on a PC that only just meets the vaguest standards of the listed Min Spec on Steam.

[hotpoon]

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Lets say A19 changed serverconfig.xml and therefore distributed a new file. But A20 didn't, so there isn't a new one included. Now someone playing A18 and suddenly deciding to play A20 would not get the change in A19. Bam.

 

I actually think this could be handled better by the game, but likewise admins are supposed to know how to deal with config files depending on their distribution method.

 

 

I'm not talking about A19 to A20 updates. I could certainly understand the config changing between major releases. I'm talking about setting up a server for A20, and then a minor update to A20 overwrites the config. We've run so many different game servers and 7DtD is the only one that does this. It really seems sloppy to me.

16 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

which is far more important than the gpu in this game, hence your comment about running other games is really pointless.

Your snide remark with nothing constructive to add is the most pointless of all.
My PC runs Cyberpunk well and that's also very CPU heavy.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, hotpoon said:

 

I'm not talking about A19 to A20 updates. I could certainly understand the config changing between major releases. I'm talking about setting up a server for A20, and then a minor update to A20 overwrites the config. We've run so many different game servers and 7DtD is the only one that does this. It really seems sloppy to me.

 

Right, good point.

 

I assume those other games all have version information in their config files, otherwise hundreds of clueless server operators would hit their forums. Without versioning this just changes one pitfall for another.