A20 - Is Crafting finally worth it again?

[theFlu]

17 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Does there have to be something that can only be crafted?

Sure, if one chooses to make a clean cut between "crafters" and "looters" and then require an absolute balance of "if they can't have it all, the others can't either." I fail to see either the separation or any need for the absolutism in the current game.

[Sephiroth]

On 12/8/2021 at 8:39 AM, BFT2020 said:

Is that even a requirement in this game?  Does there have to be something that can only be crafted?

You have dodged the question. Please answer the question.

 

On 12/8/2021 at 4:23 AM, Sephiroth said:

What is there in the game that crafters can craft that looters simply cannot find or cannot barter for from traders?

I'll reiterate, if its supposedly super important that Q6 cannot be crafted, then I'll take a trade-off to ensure crafters have something unique to them, just like Q6 is unique to looters, Acid being unique to looters, all schematics unique to looters, and so on. ... This game heavily favors looting and scavenging and has been neglecting to keep crafting in the loop aside for base building.

[BFT2020]

2 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

You have dodged the question. Please answer the question.

 

I didn't dodge the question, I just didn't feel any justification for answering it.  And my response summed up my opinion well - there is no requirement that crafters should have something that nobody (miners, looters, etc) else can have.

 

You think one way, I believe a completely different way.  No matter what I say or anyone says, the game to you is imbalanced because you can't craft a single thing that a looter can get by looting.  Maybe they will bring back Q6 crafting, maybe not.  We know that they are looking into level based crafting so Q6 might make its return.

 

If you truly believe that you should have the ability to craft a Q6 piece of gear, then mod the game so you can.  If you play multiplayer, then reach out to the server admins and ask them to mod the game so you can craft Q6 gear.  I am sure you can find players who feel the same way as you.

 

I will even help you out.  You put the code below in a xml file and create a mod folder for it (hint, this file should be called progression).  This will change all crafting recipes to now be able to craft Q6 if you max out the perk.  This is just one of the beauties of this game:  the ability to change it if you just take a little bit time and effort to do so.

 

https://imgur.com/a/H3v7t6e 

 

<config>

<set xpath="//passive_effect[@name='CraftingTier']/@value">1,2,3,4,5</set>

</config>

[Sephiroth]

6 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

then mod the game so you can

I should not have to mod the game just for a QoL change because someone else feels it shouldn't be possible. Sorry, but your opinion doesn't really fly well with me, especially as you continue to dodge the question. Thanks for making me feel like I'm barking up the wrong tree.

 

Why should crafters get the short end of the stick while looters, miners, scavengers be able to get anything and everything the game has to offer?

Edited December 23, 2021 by Sephiroth (see edit history)

[Roland]

TFP wants a super rare class of loot that is beyond what we as characters in the game can craft. It is the legendary level of loot and can only be scavenged. For now, that class is being filled by T6 level loot. In the future, depending on time, that class may be developed into true legendary weapons with permanent over-the-top mods attached that give them unique and amazing power. If that happens T6 will either be dissolved or it will be returned to the crafting progression line. If they run out of time and decide to keep it the way it is then the T6 tier will continue to fill the role of super rare beyond-what-is-necessary-to-survive gear that couldn't possibly be crafted by characters with the equipment they have.

 

Either way there will always be a tier of gear that can only be looted and can never be crafted in the vanilla game. The philosophy is that if you want to be able to survive, then tier 5 is perfectly up to the task for a high level fully perked player and as long as you find the schematics and the parts you can craft any piece of equipment that you need in order to be successful. The legendary tier is not necessary but just awesome extra treasures that can be found by those who explore and/or complete jobs for NPCs.

 

For completionists it should take 100s of hours to find a full set of legendary gear that cannot be crafted.

 

That is the intention behind it. Some people are going to disagree with that design choice and dislike the game because of it. Some will shelve it and others will mod it to be the way they like. What is never going to change is everything being 100% craftable. There will always be a tier (the best and most powerful tier) that can only be acquired via exploration and scavenging. That will most likely be true of their next game as well and the next one after that. It is a core value these developer have for the interplay between crafting and exploration and one they won't be budged on.

[Roland]

 

I'll just add that my criticism of the current design is that the loot stage ramps up the quality tier of loot too quickly and purple tier items are not rare enough. If I had control of the design plan, I would make it so traders never had anything higher than orange tier for sale unless we sold them our work and then it would only be until the next restock. Then we would buy gear in order to scrap them for parts to craft yellow, green, and blue. 

 

Our loot stage would control what types of weapons we could find but the rarity of brown, orange, yellow, green, blue, and purple would never change. Brown and orange should be common, with yellow uncommon, green rare, blue very rare, and purple ultra rare-- as in you might find 1-3 purple items total during a 100 day playthrough. 

 

I very much agree with the design choice to make the very best tier a super rare treasure find via exploring and not craftable at all by the players. I think that currently blue and green tier items are much too common especially once gamestage/lootstage makes finding them less rare and this is what destroys the crafting game. If blue and green tier items were truly rare then the reason to craft them would be present more strongly in the game

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

I should not have to mod the game just for a QoL change because someone else feels it shouldn't be possible. Sorry, but your opinion doesn't really fly well with me, especially as you continue to dodge the question. Thanks for making me feel like I'm barking up the wrong tree.

 

Why should crafters get the short end of the stick while looters, miners, scavengers be able to get anything and everything the game has to offer?

 

Looter, crafter? When I play the game I craft and loot, I don't change roles or something, there is no crafter class. The only 2 specialization that could be said to exist beside attributes are miner and builder, but even those are closely linked to specific attributes. Everyone crafts and loots. We also don't call some players reloaders because they specialize in reloading 😉

 

 

[DiegoLBC1]

Do you become a doctor or mechanic without learn?

So: How do you want to craft items without learning? How do you plan to learn without recipes? How do you plan to find the receipts without loot?

Crafting needs learn.

Learning needs recipes.

To find recipes needs loot.

 

So:
Loot, find recipes, learn, craft.

 

Or:
Loot, Find T6 items

 

Simple? You're not going to sit in your horde base and wait for things to fall from the sky.


T6 items: manufactured by a company with  big "know how" and high technology.
T5 itens or below:  handmade, homemade, without high  technology.

I think that's correct we can't  craft T6 items.

Edited December 23, 2021 by DiegoLBC1 (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

We also don't call some players reloaders because they specialize in reloading 😉

Sure, but I bet at least one person has been called a freeloader  😁

13 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

I should not have to mod the game just for a QoL change because someone else feels it shouldn't be possible. Sorry, but your opinion doesn't really fly well with me, especially as you continue to dodge the question. Thanks for making me feel like I'm barking up the wrong tree.

 

Why should crafters get the short end of the stick while looters, miners, scavengers be able to get anything and everything the game has to offer?

Eh,  if it makes you feel better, keep going down this path.  Just because you feel it is a must have or a necessary QoL, that doesn't mean the devs have the same priority as you.  Maybe by the time 7D2D is finished, you have Q6 crafting again; but then again, maybe not.  It is the vision of TFP that will drive what the final game looks like, not my vision or your vision.

 

The way I figure it, you got two choices right now:

1. Keep stewing over the fact that you can't craft Q6 gear right now.  I find that to be unhealthy and takes away the enjoyment I have playing this game
2. Come up with a way to mod the game to get what you want - coming into work this morning, I thought of a way to introduce Q6 into my gameplay without breaking the game.  Now I am going to write up a modlet to do that over Christmas break and start playtesting it.

 

Whatever choice you make is up to you; though I have a feeling I am going to be playing 7D2D with Q6 crafting sooner than you.

Edited December 23, 2021 by BFT2020 (see edit history)

[theFlu]

14 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

while looters, miners, scavengers be able to get anything and everything

How does a miner get a gun? Or grenades? Or mods?

How does a scavenger get a gun? Or grenades? Or mods?

[Sephiroth]

42 minutes ago, theFlu said:

How does a miner get a gun? Or grenades? Or mods?

How does a scavenger get a gun? Or grenades? Or mods?

Currently primarily from looting/scavenging. Crafting is lagging behind when it comes to proper balancing and everyone stating that Q6 crafting is overpowered is just not understanding my point of view and is refusing to even consider it.

 

Petition for TFP to rename the game to "7 Days to Die - The Survival Horde Looting Game" instead of "Crafting Game" at the end of the title, since that's the apparent "balancing" the devs are going with.

[GlyphGryph]

9 hours ago, Roland said:

 

I'll just add that my criticism of the current design is that the loot stage ramps up the quality tier of loot too quickly and purple tier items are not rare enough. If I had control of the design plan, I would make it so traders never had anything higher than orange tier for sale unless we sold them our work and then it would only be until the next restock. Then we would buy gear in order to scrap them for parts to craft yellow, green, and blue. 

 

Our loot stage would control what types of weapons we could find but the rarity of brown, orange, yellow, green, blue, and purple would never change. Brown and orange should be common, with yellow uncommon, green rare, blue very rare, and purple ultra rare-- as in you might find 1-3 purple items total during a 100 day playthrough. 

 

I very much agree with the design choice to make the very best tier a super rare treasure find via exploring and not craftable at all by the players. I think that currently blue and green tier items are much too common especially once gamestage/lootstage makes finding them less rare and this is what destroys the crafting game. If blue and green tier items were truly rare then the reason to craft them would be present more strongly in the game

I was gonna write a bunch of words but honestly this beats me to every point I wanted to make and does a good job laying it out.

For me the real problem is I keep wanting to craft something but by the time I can do it (materials, skills, schematics, equipment) I've already got a version of it that's better than anything I'll be able to craft. It feels bad, like I'm being robbed of the opportunities I've worked so hard for. Changes like the one in the quote above would lead to much more satisfying gameplay for anyone who enjoys crafting stuff.

[Sephiroth]

Reason this is such a huge deal for me is not because I want to take away from the prestige of 'finding' that perfect item, but to know I can spend a @%$#load of resources setting up a workshop and eventually eliminate the RNG from finding Q6 whatever. I've already spent hundreds to thousands of resources on a base, why should I be penalized for doing so by being unable to craft Q6? That just doesn't make sense.

 

I would like an alternate path that doesn't depend on RNG. Sure finding it early is a boon, I don't want to take that away, but I'd like for there to be a guaranteed way for if after 100, 200 in game days, RNG continues to screw me over, I still have a way of getting Q6. I don't agree with it ONLY being findable, despite everyone else's arguments.

 

Allow me to find like an Engineering Table with a few crafting tools that work similar to the Crucible and such in the Forge, with like say, a soldering iron, a vice, and some other tools (Maybe make the Tool and Die set make a return for this table) that can be found/purchased from the trader which unlocks expensive recipes to guarantee a Q6 tool/weapon/armor piece once the full set of tools is collected and placed in the table. Gate this behind the loot stage of say high-end wasteland for all I care, but just an alternate path is all I am asking for.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Sephiroth (see edit history)

[DiegoLBC1]

30 minutes ago, Sephiroth said:

 I've already spent hundreds to thousands of resources on a base, why should I be penalized for doing so by being unable to craft Q6? That just doesn't make sense.

 

All this just because you want to craft Q6 itens?? You don't need to wait for a game change to do this. You have choices, options.
 

15 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

I will even help you out.  You put the code below in a xml file and create a mod folder for it (hint, this file should be called progression).  This will change all crafting recipes to now be able to craft Q6 if you max out the perk.  This is just one of the beauties of this game:  the ability to change it if you just take a little bit time and effort to do so.

 

https://imgur.com/a/H3v7t6e 

<config>

<set xpath="//passive_effect[@name='CraftingTier']/@value">1,2,3,4,5</set>

</config>

BTW, I play my game as I want. Vanilla, RWG, Creative Menu, God mode, Mods. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by DiegoLBC1 (see edit history)

[Krougal]

18 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

 

<config>

<set xpath="//passive_effect[@name='CraftingTier']/@value">1,2,3,4,5</set>

</config>

Wow that easy huh? I may do that. Although since I modded 4 mods at any tier I don't care so much.

How about removing the randomness so that X tier has Y stats? I am not into this random @%$#, it's why I hate Boredlands so much, all the staring at gear trying to compare stats. I'd love to mod that out.

 

I don't see why it is such a big deal if we could craft the t6, you need to max a skill tree. I still feel it was a huge mistake to make the stats cost higher amounts at high levels, they should be flat, the higher levels of skills should cost more points.

 

I also wouldn't care about not having the t6 I want if a t5 took 4 mods, again it was easy enough to mod (with a little help) but that's something that shouldn't have to be modded. I agree with Roland more or less about there being too much higher tier floating around and that is what makes many (myself included) feel that crafting sucks. I also wouldn't be bothered as much by having to make do with lower tier equipment if I could still put 4 mods on it, because you plan a weapon build out and get the mods you want and you should be able to use them.

 

I don't even want to hear a reality argument from anyone. Talk to the hand. I live in the deep south, looting any 1 subdivision you could likely walk away with enough high quality firearms to equip a small army. That is reality.

[theFlu]

3 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

Currently primarily from looting/scavenging.

So, the miners have to loot? The scavengers have to loot? The looters have to loot? The builders have to loot? ... I'm sensing there's a theme here. One which you see where you want to, but entirely skip when it suits your desired outcome.

 

3 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

Crafting is lagging behind when it comes to proper balancing and everyone stating that Q6 crafting is overpowered is just not understanding my point of view and is refusing to even consider it.

My point of view is that the difference between a Q5 and a Q6 is so small that it's not worth stressing over. It feels nice to have a full purple kit, but it doesn't notably change one's effectiveness, not even efficiency.

 

They're basically keeping the Q6 as placeholder for their Legendary loots, which will make perfect sense not to be able to craft; they'll have some special functions and probably some light lore (anything I said here in this last paragraph is conjecture from some old statements from devs, from memory..)

[DiegoLBC1]

9 minutes ago, Krougal said:

 

 

I also wouldn't care about not having the t6 I want if a t5 took 4 mods, again it was easy enough to mod (with a little help) but that's something that shouldn't have to be modded.

Agree.

I modded it. Each tier +1 Slot. Q1 = 1 Slot, Q2 = 2 Slot...

 

 

[BFT2020]

4 hours ago, Krougal said:

Wow that easy huh? I may do that. Although since I modded 4 mods at any tier I don't care so much.

How about removing the randomness so that X tier has Y stats? I am not into this random @%$#, it's why I hate Boredlands so much, all the staring at gear trying to compare stats. I'd love to mod that out.

 

Ask and you shall receive

 

Add this into your items.xml file

<config>

    <remove xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='EntityDamage') and (@operation='perc_add') and not(@tier='2,6') and not(@tags='secondary')]"/>

</config>

 

This targets the random entity damage modifier but doesn't touch the perk tier bonus or the power attack entity damage bonus you get for each weapon.  This one took me a little longer to figure out how to make the change to all weapons without affecting the tier bonus or the power attack bonus.

[Krougal]

4 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

 

Ask and you shall receive

 

Add this into your items.xml file

<config>

    <remove xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='EntityDamage') and (@operation='perc_add') and not(@tier='2,6') and not(@tags='secondary')]"/>

</config>

 

This targets the random entity damage modifier but doesn't touch the perk tier bonus or the power attack entity damage bonus you get for each weapon.  This one took me a little longer to figure out how to make the change to all weapons without affecting the tier bonus or the power attack bonus.

Oh thanks again! That's twice today

 

Just realized I am gimping it aren't I? Is it a bonus in a range that I should have asked how do I set this to an average value?

Edited December 24, 2021 by Krougal (see edit history)

[meganoth]

14 hours ago, Krougal said:

Oh thanks again! That's twice today

 

Just realized I am gimping it aren't I? Is it a bonus in a range that I should have asked how do I set this to an average value?

 

No, the random value is between -15% and +15%. Removing that line everywhere just gives you the average value.

But only for damage, range and mag size for example will still be random and would need similar mod lines to remove

Edited December 24, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)