A20 - Is Crafting finally worth it again?

[Sephiroth]

Ever since the crafting changes that took place in A18, I haven't really found a reason to consider using crafting over looting when it comes to obtaining tools and weapons, since crafting could only craft up to blue quality, and anything purple quality has to be looted. ... Has this oversight been rectified in A20? I'm not seeing anything in the notes for A20 regarding crafting, other than the new line of Pipe-based weapons added in to the early game routine.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Sephiroth (see edit history)

[eXSe]

I don't think that they've messed with that 'cause it's a feature now, not a bug 🙂

 

The idea behind it is, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, that you'll never be able to craft something top quality with your bloated sausage fingers that someone else has precisely machine tooled 😋

 

[seagas]

I understand the idea was to keep people out and about looting and questing. Otherwise once high enough level, you'll never need to leave your bace except for maybe mining. I still enjoy crafting and usually craft most of my tools and firearms because of how I spec out what what type of weapons I prefer and one can't trust relying on RNG to get those items for you. 

 

[meganoth]

As in other RPG games crafting competes with looting and buying and a careful balance has to be maintained. Now many other RPG games have severe limits on crafting as well to make sure you can't craft stuff much above your own advancement. 

 

In 7D2D you can potentially build your character to be complete in one perk at lvl ~13 already, i.e. in early game. Having relatively early access to the ultimate best weapon in the game would make **one** of the goals a player may have for endgame to be in reach a bit too fast. So the best quality version is left for looting. 

 

In this game I craft so many things (especially blocks for the base and mods and other items) that I don't feel this makes crafting pointless. If all you see in 7D2D is a shooter with crafting then you might be disappointed and should find a mod that removes that limit.

 

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

As in other RPG games crafting competes with looting and buying and a careful balance has to be maintained. Now many other RPG games have severe limits on crafting as well to make sure you can't craft stuff much above your own advancement. 

 

In 7D2D you can potentially build your character to be complete in one perk at lvl ~13 already, i.e. in early game. Having relatively early access to the ultimate best weapon in the game would make **one** of the goals a player may have for endgame to be in reach a bit too fast. So the best quality version is left for looting. 

 

In this game I craft so many things (especially blocks for the base and mods and other items) that I don't feel this makes crafting pointless. If all you see in 7D2D is a shooter with crafting then you might be disappointed and should find a mod that removes that limit.

 

Don't forget you also have to have the necessary components to craft the item.  Just getting the max perk level unlocked, you still have to get (for the Autoshotgun in my example): 

• 21 Shotgun parts
• 105 Forged steel
• 11 Duct tape
• 140 plastic
• 14 springs
• T3 recipe

I think it is possible to re-introduced Q6 crafting back in the game, but it would require balancing like you said and across a lot of different aspects of the game (traders , looting, etc.).  I am trying to do that in my mod, but not sure yet how I want to approach it.

2 hours ago, eXSe said:

The idea behind it is, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, that you'll never be able to craft something top quality with your bloated sausage fingers that someone else has precisely machine tooled 😋

Just want to point out that we can build 4x4 Jeeps in this game out of raw materials without precision machine tools  😉

[Boidster]

4 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

Has this oversight been rectified in A20?

 

A wild Beg The Question appears!

 

I wouldn't mind trying a mod which gave back Q6 weapon crafting, somewhat bumped weapon parts in loot (scaled by GS), and otherwise removed weapons from loot and traders. A bit awkwardly, this means gun parts would be what you find in gun safes and S.M. crates. I could live with it by hand-waving, "well many looters have already been through here and took all the real guns...from...locked safes and sealed crates...look don't ask too many quesetions!" At least you'd still be forced to loot for the inputs you need to lovingly craft your very own Vera.

[BFT2020]

7 minutes ago, Boidster said:

 

A wild Beg The Question appears!

 

I wouldn't mind trying a mod which gave back Q6 weapon crafting, somewhat bumped weapon parts in loot (scaled by GS), and otherwise removed weapons from loot and traders. A bit awkwardly, this means gun parts would be what you find in gun safes and S.M. crates. I could live with it by hand-waving, "well many looters have already been through here and took all the real guns...from...locked safes and sealed crates...look don't ask too many quesetions!" At least you'd still be forced to loot for the inputs you need to lovingly craft your very own Vera.

 

That is one option I am looking at myself, though my thought process was that all working weapons have already been looted and all you are left are broken weapons that you can use for parts to fabricate a new one (represented by weapon parts because I am too lazy to bring in broken weapon assets  😉  )

[meganoth]

49 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Don't forget you also have to have the necessary components to craft the item.  Just getting the max perk level unlocked, you still have to get (for the Autoshotgun in my example): 

• 21 Shotgun parts
• 105 Forged steel
• 11 Duct tape
• 140 plastic
• 14 springs
• T3 recipe

I think it is possible to re-introduced Q6 crafting back in the game, but it would require balancing like you said and across a lot of different aspects of the game (traders , looting, etc.).  I am trying to do that in my mod, but not sure yet how I want to approach it.

Just want to point out that we can build 4x4 Jeeps in this game out of raw materials without precision machine tools  😉

Sure you also need components. But you get components from tier1 weapons and you can buy them cheap at the trader. I would guess the recipe for tier3 guns is the real limiting factor. But the moment you find that recipe you usually will immediately be able to craft the highest quality weapon, usually much too early. Also you will be able to craft the best tier2 weapon very fast if you put your mind to it. I think it just makes sense to keep one quality tier back for looting in the absence of other gates to crafting.

 

There are overhaul mods who add tier 6 crafting BUT they also add crafting gates to keep the player from fast crafting the best stuff.

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Sephiroth]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

If all you see in 7D2D is a shooter with crafting then you might be disappointed and should find a mod that removes that limit.

I don't see the game being called the The Survival Horde LOOTING Game. ... It makes ZERO sense that crafting has been nerfed the way it is.

 

41 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I think it just makes sense to keep one quality tier back for looting in the absence of other gates to crafting.

Absense of other gates to crafting, you say? Looking through the skills list, stuff like Steel Tools also require you to find the recipes out in the wild, so I fail to see why Q6 tools have to be locked behind looting when the recipes themselves already are.

 

Looting shouldn't be the only source of top-notch tools and weapons as it currently is now; Sure the player may not have fancy machines to precision machine things like firearm components and the likes, but as someone else mentioned in the thread, we can already craft 4x4 vehicles out of a few spare parts and zero machinery.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Sephiroth (see edit history)

[meganoth]

19 minutes ago, Sephiroth said:

I don't see the game being called the The Survival Horde LOOTING Game. ... It makes ZERO sense that crafting has been nerfed the way it is.

 

And there IS a lot of crafting in the game. I see no hard requirement to be able to craft everything simply from that one word in the title.  

 

19 minutes ago, Sephiroth said:

 

Absense of other gates to crafting, you say? Looking through the skills list, stuff like Steel Tools also require you to find the recipes out in the wild, so I fail to see why Q6 tools have to be locked behind looting when the recipes themselves already are.

 

Quallity 6 steel tools also can't be crafted and have to be found, absolutely identical to weapons and armor. And getting the perk miner69 to 5 is as easy as it is for weapons perks. So what is your point there?

 

The recipe is a gate that feels too weak as a gate, and certainly the gate is non-existent for tier2 weapons, tools and armor.

 

 

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

Sure you also need components. But you get components from tier1 weapons and you can buy them cheap at the trader. I would guess the recipe for tier3 guns is the real limiting factor. But the moment you find that recipe you usually will immediately be able to craft the highest quality weapon, usually much too early. Also you will be able to craft the best tier2 weapon very fast if you put your mind to it. I think it just makes sense to keep one quality tier back for looting in the absence of other gates to crafting.

 

There are overhaul mods who add tier 6 crafting BUT they also add crafting gates to keep the player from fast crafting the best stuff.

 

 

Yeah I did take into account balancing when I said

 

Quote

I think it is possible to re-introduced Q6 crafting back in the game, but it would require balancing like you said and across a lot of different aspects of the game (traders , looting, etc.).  I am trying to do that in my mod, but not sure yet how I want to approach it.

 

For me (can't speak for anyone else), it feels like the value of crafting weapons at higher tiers is just not there.  By the time I have everything unlocked and found the components / workstations to build the item, I have usually found the same level while out looting or available for purchase from the trader.  With A20 changes, I don't know how that has changed.

 

Now, I don't speed through the game advancing my character so I can see how someone who just dedicates themself out of the gate to get a Q6 weapon right away can quickly do that.

[Sephiroth]

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

Quallity 6 steel tools also can't be crafted and have to be found, absolutely identical to weapons and armor. And getting the perk miner69 to 5 is as easy as it is for weapons perks. So what is your point there?

What I don't get is why there is some sort of need to 'slow the player down' in a game that's designed to be a sandbox where the player can play however the player may feel like playing. That I don't understand. What is so bad about a player rushing to Q6 tools right out of the gate as opposed to having to take 30~60 in game days to get there?

[Viktoriusiii]

For once, I have to be devils advocate:

Yes crafting was useless since A18

BUT that was not because T6 couldn't be crafted. It shouldn't be craftable. It should be a lucky find. A 1/1000. A special moment.

What made it useless was the absolute abundance of weapons.
So that you already had every weapon T5 before you could even hope to craft it at that level.

If they finally adjusted it WAY down (like they promised and said in the patchnotes), crafting will be worth it, because you will not find a lot of weapons anymore.
So if you want a certain weapon, you either have to be lucky or craft it yourself from parts (which come from worse tiers)


So T1 is relatively widely spread. You can use it for the early game and scrap it lateron for parts.
T2 is a good chance but you can craft it if you are impatient.
T3/4 you should just craft yourself and hope that in like... 30 days you might find one that is slightly better than what you crafted.


This would be the ideal balancing to make crafting useful while still requireing you to go out and loot.
BUT (I haven't tried it, just based on 8 years of experience with TFPs) this is probably just wishful thinking and they just lowered weapons overall by like 20% instead of finetuning it. Because balancing is for the time "when the game goes gold"! 🙄

[Vaeliorin]

The thing people seem to forget is that crafted items have absolutely average stats for their level.  I've used a mod that lets me craft Q6 gear, and I'd quite often find Q5 stuff that was better than the Q6 I'd crafted.

 

Also, I don't see why people should be forced to go out and loot.  For me, looting gets boring pretty quick.  I'd rather mine, build and fight blood moon hordes than spend days and days running the same POIs over and over (if not using Compopack.)  And yes, I know, A20, new POIs, etc., but you're still going to end up running the same POIs over and over because they have the best loot modifiers (especially since you can choose quest tiers now, making it easier to try and get quests for the same POIs).

 

That said, I don't really care whether they re-enable Q6 crafting or not.  I can always just use a mod (and considering I've got 1000+ hours in game and less than 30 of that is vanilla, I obviously don't mind using mods.)

[Roland]

18 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

Has this oversight been rectified in A20?

 

No. Because it was not an oversight. It is 100% intentionally designed that way with full knowledge that some people don't like it.

 

3 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

What I don't get is why there is some sort of need to 'slow the player down' in a game that's designed to be a sandbox where the player can play however the player may feel like playing. That I don't understand. What is so bad about a player rushing to Q6 tools right out of the gate as opposed to having to take 30~60 in game days to get there?

 

And yet...people still manage to speed run the game. Does that mean the sandbox status is maintained?

 

2 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

For once, I have to be devils advocate...

 

I fully agree with you...THIS time.

 

2 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

The thing people seem to forget is that crafted items have absolutely average stats for their level.

 

That's not true any longer for anything that isn't primitive level, I believe. (Tier 2 and Tier 3 for sure are random....Tier 1 maybe or maybe not I can't remember. Tier 0 is definitely set stats)

[Vaeliorin]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

That's not true any longer for anything that isn't primitive level, I believe. (Tier 2 and Tier 3 for sure are random....Tier 1 maybe or maybe not I can't remember. Tier 0 is definitely set stats)

Hmm...my initial reaction was that that was kind of cool.  Then it occurred to me that I'm going to end up spam crafting stuff to get the stuff with the best stats.  Now I'm kind of torn.

[Spatch]

The thing I run into a LOT (at least in 19) is that the crafted items I can make at tier 5 are many times only better in that they can have one more mod.  The stats, many times, are worse than my tier 3 and tier 4 items I've found.  Makes it frustrating to build a tier 5 item only to eagerly grab it off of the workbench and see that it is worse than the tier 4 you already have!  

[Sephiroth]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

And yet...people still manage to speed run the game. Does that mean the sandbox status is maintained?

Please answer the question(s) that were quoted above this; not a big fan of dodging questions. And also, sandbox status maintained? No, not if I'm going to be punished because I want to play the game one way, which isn't the way the developers want me to play. I'd much rather craft my tools/weapons/armor rather than having to go out, waste time looting and scavenging, and I'd MUCH rather not be punished for wanting to craft my tools/weapons/armor by only getting sub-par or even trash results compared to just going out and finding the stuff. Thankyouverymuch.

 

59 minutes ago, Spatch said:

Makes it frustrating to build a tier 5 item only to eagerly grab it off of the workbench and see that it is worse than the tier 4 you already have!

Precisely why I feel crafting is pointless. I want to know why this design decision was made, the game is a Survival Crafting game, NOT A Survival Looting game.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Sephiroth (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

If you want to  bring back Q6 crafting, just make a modlet with the following lines in it

<config>

<set xpath="//passive_effect[@name='CraftingTier']/@value">1,2,3,4,5</set>

</config>

 

This will unlock Q6 crafting for anything in the game once you unlock the Level 5 perk for those items.  However, there is no balance in the game if you go this route.

 

One thing I noticed in all of my playthroughs is that I can craft T3 weapons / tools before I find them in loot, once I have all of the components and found the schematics.  So crafting gives you that advantage over looting.

 

I also noticed that you do not craft trash items.  I did a playthrough where I only used items I crafted and I didn't notice any differences (other than the slow progression to craft items at higher tiers without the perk investment and no Q6 gear) that really prevented me from being successful.  At most, I would just find a way to unlock the Q6 but trying to keep close to the balance and not have them at GS49.

Edited December 5, 2021 by BFT2020 (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

4 hours ago, Spatch said:

The thing I run into a LOT (at least in 19) is that the crafted items I can make at tier 5 are many times only better in that they can have one more mod.  The stats, many times, are worse than my tier 3 and tier 4 items I've found.  Makes it frustrating to build a tier 5 item only to eagerly grab it off of the workbench and see that it is worse than the tier 4 you already have!  

Crafting doesn't make things worse, it uses the same randomization for the specs.  I just got done crafting some T3 steel clubs (Q6) and they ranged from 37 to 43 in the small sample size (base entity damage for the steel club is 39.2).

 

What you are talking about here is the differences between the quality tiers of equipment and how the randomness can at times make a Q5 stats less than a Q4 stats item.  For the items, the increase in Quality adds 10% to the base stats for each level.  There is also a randomization value of -15% to 15% for each item crafted or looted or bought.  So you can come across a Q4 item that is perfect (30% added to base stat, along with 15% randomization) that is better than a crappy Q5 you find (40% added to base state but with -15% from randomization).

[seagas]

There are plenty of times that I find a higher tier ite but has lower overall stats as the one I'm using. As BFT said above, even your crafted items will have varying stats. So there are times I don't use a tier 6 item over an good tier 5, even if you consider the extra mod slot, the lower item has better stats.

 

[meganoth]

22 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

What I don't get is why there is some sort of need to 'slow the player down' in a game that's designed to be a sandbox where the player can play however the player may feel like playing. That I don't understand. What is so bad about a player rushing to Q6 tools right out of the gate as opposed to having to take 30~60 in game days to get there?

 

A sandbox game is not necessarily without rules and dangers and difficulties you have to master. A true sandbox has no rules at all, no goals, it is just a simulation, like Gerry's Mod. The closest you can get to that in 7D2D is using creative mode. Just spawn in your T6 weapon, maybe turn on god mode and have fun. But vanilla 7D2D is not such a sandbox. It has a normal progression where players can not get the uber-weapons on day 1 so that the enemies are matched to their equipment.

Now if your definition of a sandbox is violated by this and you feel there is not enough sandbox in 7D2D to call it a sandbox, then so be it. Call it a fake-sandbox if you want. 😉

 

Players have no fun if they are not challenged. Giving players the best gun of the game on day 2 (for example) would mean for many players that the game lost its fun on day 2 because there was no difficulty anymore and they can run around unchallenged by those shambling zombies. They would stop playing right there, but the game is designed for a much longer run-time.

 

Some players are intelligent enough to (for example) not take an overpowered item for a game if it is offered to them (because of a bug, or some promotion...), some other players would take it gladly and then wonder why that game is so boring.

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Viktoriusiii]

8 hours ago, meganoth said:

Some players are intelligent enough to (for example) not take an overpowered item for a game if it is offered to them (because of a bug, or some promotion...), some other players would take it gladly and then wonder why that game is so boring.

Woah!
Both of these should be fixed by the devs though.
It is not the players responsibility to limit himself to have fun.
If there is an "kill all zombies instantly" weapon, it is not the players responsibility to not use it.
And he has a right to complain.

I have seen this argument loads. And it always is the same nonsense.


The game gives the rules and boundries. The player has to do everything to play the game to its fullest (in a puzzlegame that means solving puzzles, in a survivalgame that means survive and in a sprotsgame it means scoring or whatever). And that means finding the most optimal path. Especially on the hardest difficulty.
If that is not for you, that is fine. You can play on easy and noone will judge you.
BUT if I tell you that exploit hordebases exist (at least those that are super easy to be constructed with like 20 blocks) it is the devs job to fix it, not the players not to use it.



I agree with the rest though. 7D2D is a good sandbox. Limits are just enough to need creativity, but still open enough so you never feel like you are boxed in in some way.

[Lerxst]

I never understood how this game gravitated form the advertised "zombie survival sandbox RPG" into a first person shooter RPG. Seems they've slowly castrated the "survival" aspect with a wooden spoon, update after update.

[Sephiroth]

11 hours ago, meganoth said:

It has a normal progression where players can not get the uber-weapons on day 1 so that the enemies are matched to their equipment.

Never have I said I wanted to be able to pull out a so-called 'uber-weapon' on day 1. However, what I do want to see is more than a singular path to obtaining Q6 anything other than being forced to go out and loot. The game itself touts its crafting systems, but when crafting is pointless (As it is now), I don't see any reason to even bother trying to gather everything to craft say a pick axe or a pair of pants... Arbitrary limits like the one this game puts on crafting just don't make sense at all, and this argument of "Players have no fun if not challenged" is not good enough to limit crafting as it has been.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Sephiroth (see edit history)