Leveling system and learning system overhaul

[Rabbitslovecactus]

Dear DEV's, please hear me out.

 

Leveling/point system:

Please bring back the leveling system that used to exist in 7D2D. The current point system is very boring and takes the fun out of the game. 

It would be great to level up Archery by........using a bow, or level up jumping height by......simply jumping more often. So basically if you want to master something, just do it more often (Just like real life!!!) Skyrim used this method and it was a very fun and successful game. This will eliminate the need for points.

 

New Learning system:

For learning, books aren't required, simply allow the person to locate lets say a shotgun, have an option to disassemble the item which in turn destroy it but allows the person to learn how to make it.  Bye Bye books. 

 

Both these changes will breathe life back into the game BIG TIME!!! 

 

Thank you

[Blaster_Yoda]

I half way agree, there has to be some randomness to moving forward, if progression were straight forward the game would be boring by day 14.

 

Weapon skills were the old progression method, I actually liked that. Want to get better with a Bow, then use one! Same way with the ability to craft a better bow, as you got better with it you could craft better bows. Played a mod that uses that affect, love it.

 

I currently hate what Crack-a-Book has become (mostly paper, though I do understand). At least add a modifier to the code for "Player Knows -50%, Player doesn't know +50%).

 

I also dislike that Better Barter removes lower skill books/recipes from the vendor (not sure I should say how I found out), having a book/recipe/item disappear cause I increased my skill really does stink!!!!!.

 

Better Barter should add to the list of items for sell and not remove what was already there (lower tier).

 

Blaster

 

 

[Rabbitslovecactus]

On 7/20/2020 at 10:40 PM, Blaster_Yoda said:

I half way agree, there has to be some randomness to moving forward, if progression were straight forward the game would be boring by day 14.

 

Weapon skills were the old progression method, I actually liked that. Want to get better with a Bow, then use one! Same way with the ability to craft a better bow, as you got better with it you could craft better bows. Played a mod that uses that affect, love it.

 

I currently hate what Crack-a-Book has become (mostly paper, though I do understand). At least add a modifier to the code for "Player Knows -50%, Player doesn't know +50%).

 

I also dislike that Better Barter removes lower skill books/recipes from the vendor (not sure I should say how I found out), having a book/recipe/item disappear cause I increased my skill really does stink!!!!!.

 

Better Barter should add to the list of items for sell and not remove what was already there (lower tier).

 

Blaster

 

 

Thanks for the reply. Yeah it definitely needs work. I think the Devs are over thinking the game. If they have something good going that everyone likes, don't change it. For example, why isn't 1 meat = 1 meat? Why am I always left with 2 meats when done cooking?! Also why does it take so many corns to craft one seed. Lots of stuff needs to go back to what it was. 

[Liesel Weppen]

And here it goes again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.

 

*sigh*

 

I vote for permaban users on the forums that bring up the same discussion years after again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.

 

It just becomes so @%$*#!ing anoying.

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

7 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

And here it goes again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.

 

*sigh*

 

I vote for permaban users on the forums that bring up the same discussion years after again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.

 

It just becomes so @%$*#!ing anoying.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. This not only pops up here but on the steam forums as well. I suspect that if someone were to do a metric on how often this comes up, and the replies in favor, that it would be  a high number of people. If it was combined with the number of people who download mods with such systems, like darkness falls, it will be higher. 

[meganoth]

Our group is playing DF too, just like most of the other overhauls, just to have some variety, definitely not because of learning-by-doing.

 

But DF is also the answer to anyone who wants LBD back.

 

[Rabbitslovecactus]

On 7/23/2020 at 12:25 PM, meganoth said:

Our group is playing DF too, just like most of the other overhauls, just to have some variety, definitely not because of learning-by-doing.

 

But DF is also the answer to anyone who wants LBD back.

 

I will look into this. Thanks. Never been a fan of mods though. I prefer playing 7D2D the way it was intended. 

[caatalyst]

On 7/23/2020 at 2:40 AM, Liesel Weppen said:

And here it goes again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.

 

*sigh*

 

I vote for permaban users on the forums that bring up the same discussion years after again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.

 

It just becomes so @%$*#!ing anoying.

The more this gets brought to the forefront of conversation the better as it would be a welcome return by many.

Let's clear something up as well that the OP touched on.

 

Learn by doing does not mean spam crafting. Spam crafting bad is the most common response to learn by doing and it does not need to make a come back. (Even though it was a far better mechanic than the current system)

Learn by doing can be implemented in a few fairly straight forward and easy to understand ways that would feel far more naturally and rewarding compared to the current system and there is no need for it to include spam crafting:

 

Physical skills

Stamina, weapon handling (recoil, accuracy, reload speed etc), digestion etc can all be improved by performing those actions in the world. 

Why? Not only do you feel the impact of your efforts to improve but you aren't locked in to using a specific type of weapon or play style. It amplifies the survival sandbox experience, immersing the player in their character more. You can play with more freedom which offers more replay value than the current system. Want to be good with a sniper rifle? Use a sniper rifle more.

 

Intellect Skills and Crafting
The book system already tackles this fairly well and could be part of the bigger picture. If you want to learn how to craft a gun then you have to find a schematic. Alternatively you could break down guns at the work bench to learn how to craft them. The more related books you learn or guns you break down, the better you become at crafting them (level 1 to 5). The same could be applied to tools, blocks, turrets... anything that you can craft.

 

If you combine these two you wouldn't even need a perk system. They both make more sense in this type of game and the LBD progression part of the game worked so well with night time. In A19 I am finding night time incredibly boring, especially during during the first 2 weeks where I have little resources to build a base. I literally go AFK for most nights waiting for day light to arrive as there is nothing to do. I have too little resources to craft anything and its too dangerous to go out at night.

The game worked well when it was balanced so that the first few weeks of the game you could live in a fairly small, low tier base and focus on character progression. Once you've learnt the bulk of what you need you and your gear was a bit better then move on to night time building your dream base and crafting high tier weapons, tools and armour for the later hordes. It kept players engaged way beyond the first in game weeks.

 

Loot Economy

To make this work well the loot economy needs improving. RNG works well in this type of game but with the current system there is too much RNG in terms of where loot is found and too much level gating in terms of when you can find loot.

It just needs to be as simple as if you want to learn how to get military loot then loot military sites. Regardless of level there should always be amilitary grade loot at a military installation. The only gating involved needs to be around the quality and that could be tied to your level or looting experience (which can be improved the more you loot). Gating what gear players find early game can be done in a more organic way by making those POIs very difficult to penetrate. Maybe you need C4 to blow a door down that low / mid tier tools would take days and / or the zombies there are going to make life hell. It doesn't need to be impossible but mili sites should be high risk, incredibly difficult for a low level player.

Military grade weapons or schematics should not appear in a house or a gun shop.

 

A fairly simplified looting system that would work well with 7 days to die and a LBD system:

 

• Type: Small POI Residential / Civilian
  threat: Low and can be tackled easily during week 1
  Quality: low with very small chance to get mid tier
  Tier: low with a small chance to get mid
  items: food, drink, tools, weapons, meds, raw materials from breaking stuff down)

 

• Small and medium POI Shops (shotgun messiahs, working stiffs, pop pills)
  Threat level: Medium (will be hard during the first week but not impossible)
  Quality: low with fairly good chance to get mid quality and very low chance to get high quality
  tier: low with fairly good chance to get mid quality and very low chance to get high quality
  Items: Corresponds with the type of shop
   
• Large civilian buildings and stores
  Threat level: High (Would be very hard to do during week 1 and still hard during week 2)
  Quality:  Mostly mid quality with a low chance of getting high quality
  Tier: Mostly mid with a chance of getting high
  Items: Corresponds with the type of shop
   
• Military
  Threat level: Very high (Almost impossible during week 1 and week 2)
  Quality: All quality levels with a small chance of getting medium and very small chance of high
  Tier: almost all high tier
  Items: Military grade stuff 

 

There needs to be some sort of resource loop for every type of area to loot so that it's always useful for players to loot the above areas. The toughness of the POI should determine the difficulty and loot.. not perks. This would make for a far more organic looting experience and encourage exploration more. There's too many generic crates that you can find in a small POI or a large military POI that contain the same loot so what's the point in risking the latter?

It's not that outlandish and this type of system has been implemented in plenty of other open world survival games. It makes sense to the player and it feels natural. There's something incredibly off putting about starting a new character and knowing that good loot doesn't exist in the world because you haven't grinded out enough levels or perk points. 

 

It's such a shame that they didn't build on what they had in A15/A16. The game was in a very balanced state in a way that kept the players engaged in a way that felt rewarding. I imagine it would have also been a lot less time consuming to expand on what they had rather than implement multiple iterations of the current perk system over 3 alphas which nobody asked for and has received a lot of backlash.

Some great strides have been made in A19. Combat in particular is feeling fantastic and the zombie ragdoll just makes combat so much more immersive.

It's just such a shame that the perk system and the way loot is handled has become so artificial and gamey.

 

[PoloPoPo]

52 minutes ago, caatalyst said:

I have too little resources to craft anything and its too dangerous to go out at night.

Things I do at night at an early gamestage:

 

- Build my base

- Chop wood near my base

- Mine ressources like iron or stone near my base

- Drink and eat

- Cook meals

- Feed my forge

- Sort my stuff

- Dig holes below my base to get clay, stone and mineral ores

 

And if there is not enough to do I simply go outside and do some open quests. I am playing on Warrior difficulty and to be fair, even with a level 1 wooden club I can take out every zombie at night as long as they approach me one at a time. Sure, I have to be very cautious not to get attacked by multiple zombies simultaneously or to run into predators but that adds to the excitement. Inside POIs it isn't too hard to separate zombies with the help of doors etc. and the much increased sneak damage bonus for bow & arrows helps a lot at night.

 

In my opinion there is no need to go AFK during nighttime as a half-experienced player.

[caatalyst]

55 minutes ago, PoloPoPo said:

Things I do at night at an early gamestage:

 

- Build my base

- Chop wood near my base

- Mine ressources like iron or stone near my base

- Drink and eat

- Cook meals

- Feed my forge

- Sort my stuff

- Dig holes below my base to get clay, stone and mineral ores

 

And if there is not enough to do I simply go outside and do some open quests. I am playing on Warrior difficulty and to be fair, even with a level 1 wooden club I can take out every zombie at night as long as they approach me one at a time. Sure, I have to be very cautious not to get attacked by multiple zombies simultaneously or to run into predators but that adds to the excitement. Inside POIs it isn't too hard to separate zombies with the help of doors etc. and the much increased sneak damage bonus for bow & arrows helps a lot at night.

 

In my opinion there is no need to go AFK during nighttime as a half-experienced player.

Other than resource gathering, those activities are things that take less than 5 minutes which even on 60 minute days don't cover night.

How are you mining and general resource collecting during the first week with a stone axe and barely any perk points to spend on resource gathering? During my first week, even once I manage to get iron tools the resources gathered are low that there is barely any point risking it. 

[PoloPoPo]

You are right that most of those tasks don't take too long, that's why I am usually mining or looting at night.

 

I have started a new savegame with b173 yesterday and started my base build on top of two iron ores, build a 13x13 wooden frame around it and my base on top of it. Whenever I have nothing to do at night I go downstairs digging one or two layers of blocks out of the basement. Of course it is tedious at the beginning with stone tools only but usually I find some level 5 stone tools during the first week and together with some mods that works quite well. Does not give too much ressources but at the beginning you don't need too much of that anyway. A bit of forged iron for further crafting and upgrading bars, doors, hatches etc., some nails for my crates and I am a happy and busy player

 

The good thing is there are endless ways of playing the game. Above scenario is my current way to go.