Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[madmole]

Not going to lie. Probably the single most depressing thing I have ever read on here, especially coming from a modder who I genuinely looked up to. Out of a lot of things over the years I can not pinpoint why a statement like this stings a little. I remember a time when we all loved talking about potential ideas and wishes. Now its seemingly about numbers and rushing to release to move on. The fun is definitely missing, especially these past few months.

 

Eh it was a great ride though. Once in a lifetime experience to watch this game develop and grow. I wouldn't have changed it for the world.

 

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Im seriously rethinking my future with this game right now. It's a corporate line, and the worst one a developer can ever tell his customers, most of whom HAVE over 4000 hours of play and following this journey. We are nothing more than a number.

 

As true as that may be a company who grew with its fans and supporters should never tell their fans they are just a number....

 

I mean, what does that make me for spending thousands of hours modding this game so that new and old fans can enjoy a different experience? And what of the future? Am i just an idiot? For seeing thousands of hours of value? For WASTING hours of my life in a game that's intended to be no more than a 40 hour AAA title time waster?

Nothing has changed except your perception. We've always targeted the average consumer with a larger goal of making games that can become a hobby where players spend 1000's of hours.

 

Its obvious you guys are more than just a number or I wouldn't spend my free time talking with you. If you had fun playing the game or modding it, how is it a waste? One man's "waste of money" is another mans "40 hours of fun" and another mans "12,000 hours and counting, I love this game!". Your putting an unnecessary label on it. Do I hate Bethesda for making Skyrim for average consumers? No because I personally enjoyed it for a few hundred hours and with mods I got 2k hours. I don't know why you would hate on someone because he's color blind, f.e. his perception of red is different than yours.

[Cirion]

Then your on a slippery slope of adding late game crap 2% of players see. Its better to have less content that is super engaging for 20 hours than a ton of content that is meh or blocked.

 

Like I have to wonder how many players actually legit got tek gear in Ark on vanilla servers lol. What a waste of time making all those models and code for that stuff nobody ever got to use it unless they cheated.

 

Not necessarily but I can understand the concern of this happening. What you're doing with RWG is an example of something that both new players and long-term players will continue to get re-play value with. (I hope the new RWG is as good as it looks like it will be when done! And I also want caves!)

 

Now while I do think end-game content needs serious work in this game (i.e., there is no end game at all), it's not the only way to add replay to the game. And just for sake of argument if colonies did get added in, even for new players you could start working on this say, by level 100 ish. That's not a fair comparison to ARK. It takes 10-100x as long to get to Tek level in ARK as it does to reach level 100 in 7D2D. But I agree on ARK though. Then again, I never have and never will play ARK vanilla. That's only for crazy people LOL.

 

Procedural infinitely increasing difficulties / loot / progression / new game + etc are ways to add replay for people that are new-ish and veterans alike. Sure the newer players might only do one or two new game +'s, but they'll at least see the content probably. Depending on how difficult it is to "Clear" a map at least. Contrast this to your example -ARK- which as you know could take 1000 hr+ to see TEK level gear on vanilla easily.

 

I guess I am different from most kids these days. I find a game I like and invest a lot of time in it. I don't play games that only interest me for a few hrs anymore. Not usually. The attention span of most kids these days may very well be 2 hrs or less though, who knows. To my playstyle, if a game only gets me 20 hrs then I don't consider it a good game. But that's why I don't generally play games that can be cleared that fast anymore these days either. I like games with depth and lots of replay value. This is one of those games. And it could be made even better with just a little bit of work on the end-game level of the game.

 

However I am a gamer that is somewhere between casual and hardcore. So I don't think my viewpoint is the minority by any stretch of the imagination. I don't play hardcore MMO's anymore that require 1000's of hrs, neither do I play games that are boring after 10s of hrs. I'm somewhere in the middle (most games I really enjoy last me at least in the 100s of hrs like empyrion, dungeon defenders... actually Dungeon defenders I broke 1000 on, one of my favorite of all time)

[madmole]

7 Days to Die was the very first game I'd ever put more than 200 hours into. An open world RNG game about surviving the zombie apocalypse checked off ALL of the right boxes for me. Then i realized playing SP was depriving me of a different experience, so I joined a MP server. Then I realized that playing "against" other people was not much fun if there was no conflict, so I joined a couple PvP friendly servers and did alright. THEN I got invited to Red Wolf's Steel Marauders RPG server with factions, classes and a whole bunch of other cool ♥♥♥♥, and that's when I realized how accessible xml modding really was. Fast forward to today, I have over 2500 hours into the game and have learned (with much hand-holding by the modding community) how to import assets and do a lot of things to mold the game into my preferred vision.

 

That being said, I do feel like making this open world experience into a 20-40 hour game out of the box really waters down the experience and doesn't really make the game's potential shine. The most popular Skyrim mods added depth to gameplay (intentionally leaving out the dong and boob mods because everybody knows that teenage hormones rule the internet) and while it could be said that was a bonus of modding and not a malus of development, there is always the middle ground.

 

TL;DR - It's your game, if you want to rush to gold do it, but you're doing your overall fanbase a disservice by trying to make a 20-30 hour attention span experience. Dwarf Fortress has hands down the most fanatical fanbase because of it's depth and long-game ramifications. If that's too spergy for you, look at RimWorld. 20-30 hours? That's your first base.

 

There is already 1000's of hours of playability though. I'm not saying we're targeting 20-40 hours, I'm saying average players play 20 hours or less. No matter what we do their attention span is what it is. You guys here are an anomaly.

[madmole]

Madmole, the roughness of the terrain is the best thing!! Because previously everything looked so smooth and flat and soft.. but rough terrain looks amazing and is more realistic well done

 

Thats still the ugly melted ice cream version. Just wait.

[madmole]

This is a completely out of touch statement. There are a lot of servers where people have Tek and streamers who have long term games that got to Tek.

 

Have a look around at the most popular servers for your own game. Day 300 plus. The world exists OUTSIDE of Navezgane.

 

The game world is changing my man. People pledge allegiance to one or two games now. 3000 hours is average now for survival games.

 

Your line of thinking is going to sink your ship.

Just like going to console dumbed us down? The fact is we fixed thousand of bugs and alpha 14 PC had a huge boost in sales due to us stopping adding buggy content and focusing on performance and bugs. Anyhow you guys twisted my words into something they were not. Reread them carefully before dying on this hill.

 

We already smashed the goal and made a game people play 1000's of hours. What we need now is some more mid to late game content and bugs/optimization and to finish the game with bandits.

 

You would be surprised if you saw average play time of these games. Average is usually 2 hours on all games. OUrs is an anonamly and a few others.

[madmole]

What I think MM says is that they have to achieve their goal to get gold. They cannot stay early access too much in time, all of us know that. They have good kickstarter goals that they need to finish them properly (finally). With the time of the developement we got used to have really nice features, some of them got accepted, some not. But lets move on.

 

Didn`t they work on a better mod system, a one that could brings what some of us want, but modded, after gold (Steam workshop is not yet out, remember) ?

 

Having an awesome base game as a gold version, and the ability to mod it and create content with no limits is what I think is their final goal.

 

I think most people would agree that this is a true statement. I don't have a crystal ball or can read other devs minds.

[madmole]

If I bought a $60 game and it was only playable for 10 hours, I would be very PO'd

 

Last of us is short but awesome. If you were thrilled the entire 12 hours you'd still be mad? I don't like games like that, I like games that are hobby games too and you can spend 100 to 1000 hours on and put them down, come back a year later and get another 100 or so any time. Most people are game sluts though and want a new game every week.

[SxR]

If only I had a dollar for everytime Madmole said something and caused much butthurt on this forum...

 

You'd not even have $10,000. I'd ask a dollar for every time something else happened, to be honest. ;b

 

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Last of us is short but awesome. If you were thrilled the entire 12 hours you'd still be mad? I don't like games like that, I like games that are hobby games too and you can spend 100 to 1000 hours on and put them down, come back a year later and get another 100 or so any time. Most people are game sluts though and want a new game every week.

 

But Minecraft, The Forest, or ARK or even Skyrim aren't games you just play for 10, 20, or 30 hours.. you spend over 200 or more to kick everyone's ass, or build your dream castle or something.

 

This is an open world game, where you can do anything you want.. it's not a story based, one direction progression game like.. Duke Nukem, Serious Sam, Left 4 Dead etc.. where you have chapters and load the levels one after the other.

 

It's kind of expected you'd sink lots of hours into it. :f

[Jackelmyer]

Last of us is short but awesome. If you were thrilled the entire 12 hours you'd still be mad? I don't like games like that, I like games that are hobby games too and you can spend 100 to 1000 hours on and put them down, come back a year later and get another 100 or so any time. Most people are game sluts though and want a new game every week.

 

Suddenly I feel so classy!

 

LOL

[SxR]

Why was The Last Of Us even brought up for comparison anyway? It's a story based, direction progression type of game? :f

[madmole]

Any Thoughts on Mid or End game? its fair to say by level 100 you are able to take on pretty much anything and also have the ability to make everything you need.

 

something that is only attainable at levels 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, etc. things I would like to see:

-- Quest with rewards that are level specific with significant items

-- Artifacts - the Indian Lore chest is cool so maybe take that further?

-- Peerless items, mods (see my previous post)

-- clothing that is level specific. Everyone wants a "I got to level 300 and all I got was this MM t-shirt"

 

Vehicle mods, hopefully some tier 4-5 mods, legendary guns are on the list.

[Cirion]

Last of us is short but awesome. If you were thrilled the entire 12 hours you'd still be mad? I don't like games like that, I like games that are hobby games too and you can spend 100 to 1000 hours on and put them down, come back a year later and get another 100 or so any time. Most people are game sluts though and want a new game every week.

 

I think you're probably right. Peoples' attention span are so short nowadays. Not to mention everyone is in debt, probably due to said short attention span and constantly buying $60 games lol

 

Still, I myself don't buy $60 games for something that will last me 10 hrs. In fact I don't buy $60 games at all period anymore, so maybe I'm just the outlier. The only times I will EVER consider buying a $60 game is if it is literally something I have been waiting for for 10 yrs or something from my all time favorite game series like final fantasy or something, which is RARE. I buy maybe one $60 game every few yrs. I value my money and my early retirement goals so I only spend that kinda money on something I actually plan to play. My brother knows many people who buy $60 games and then don't even play them. They are also often in debt. Well, their loss while I plan to retire in my 40's to very early 50's while just playing the same games I bought a long time ago because I still enjoy them

[madmole]

Madmole basically said, "You will get nothing and like it!"

 

Seriously though, he just confirmed that making end game stuff is a waste of time as only 2% of players will see it. Modders will have to take up the task.

No I meant I don't like to make content that only 2% of the players might see. Which is why we unblocked vehicles from books.

[Exxodous]

You play, or have played, with mods that are just toys. Why do you want a bunch of content from the developers when the game doesn’t even work?

 

Also things have basically stopped changing and probably will. There are maybe some more changes to food and water but those are easy to change now that they are overly complicated. It can’t get much harder than it is right now.

 

Remember there is a difference between what you don't like....and what is actually broken. If I try to wear a small t-shirt, it's uncomfortable and not enjoyable. It doesn't mean the shirt is broken...it just means I'm fat.

[madmole]

Doesn't make a difference; at some point you gotta as a business, develop a model. The successful model is the one that targets the largest demographic.

 

It is what it is.

 

I don't think I /could/ play vanilla for more than 20-30 hours (Which is what he said his target was)... but I also think MM is undercutting it. At 60 minute days he's looking at 3 to 4 blood moons, and we already KNOW, just by the design of leveled loot and gamestages, that the pimps are targeting for more.

 

To be clear, we are targeting the 50,000 hour players. Will we get them? No, maybe one or two.

[Cirion]

Also a very important difference between ARK and 7d2D

 

ARK vanilla you really can't solo unless you are a crazy mofo.

 

7D2D is designed to be solable (while still encouraging team play). Any end-game content should keep that in mind, and then more than 2% of people would see it by definition. If for ex colonies (I keep bringing this up because this is probably my most wanted end-game feature ), yes it would take some work to build up domination over the world map but even casuals would see at least one or two towns colonized probably, if it is designed such that solo players can accomplish that goal.

 

My problem with things like equipment being "end game" is that it's, for lack of better words, kind of boring - and really not end-game at least in the sense that I imagine it. OK great I got these legendary weapons... now what? I wanna take on a challenging task now. Liiiiike.... defending my colony and towns from threats even worse to feel like I'm actually doing something meaningful with my new found power rather than just grind for the next legendary weapon just for the sake of grinding new equipment.

 

How about quests that require you to fend off a town, POI, whatever from a BM-esque horde? Defending a trader? Whatever? There are lots of things that I think wouldn't be awfully hard to code in since the framework is already there. Can even just have stationary NPCs, they don't even need to move. I'd like moving NPC, but can see how they would be harder to code up.

 

We literally have stationary NPCs now. Why not take advantage of it? I understand the time crunch, but this is literally already coded in the game already. Quests are also already in the game. As are BM hordes. I don't think it would be too awfully difficult to make some defend quests?

[madmole]

The game has been in early access for going on six years. Rushing the game out? Flipping games? I think some of you need to look up “rushing” and “flipping”.

 

It WAS fun to daydream and speculate about all the potential content that could be added but honestly most of that was way beyond the promised features anyway. Now the game is at its end and all the “maybe we can add that” comments must necessarily change to “no”.

 

Modding is the future of the game. What’s wrong with that?

 

And what’s up with petty and snide remarks about showing art assets for A18 as if that is the only thing they are going to do?

 

Madmole has been saying unpolitically correct stuff for years. If you are an easily offended person then beware. He was telling it like it is as he sees it and not intending to insult anyone.

It’s MADMOLE....

 

They are planning on adding everything from the Kickstarter list including bandits. What other endgame content was anyone expecting based on the Kickstarter goals for the game?

Being politically correct is an abomination of the truth. Tell it like it is. There are too many sensitive weenies out there and I intend to smash them all into men someday on my youtube channel. Actually I hope to motivate people and tell them how I overcame a lot of challenges in my life. I am blunt, but I care way too much tbh.

 

In all honesty, nothing is changed, except we're out of time to entertain random forum ideas. We have to go gold and so no is the answer to most things these days. The covered wagon brings the old west up to par with the other scenes we have. That guy doesn't make zombies so it didn't stop any new zombies from being made. And its not what you guys want, its not what we want, its whats on the list right now. Even I get told no to new stuff, so deal with it. The list cannot change or we'll be in EA in 2030. We can slide a few things in yet, but its mostly sticking to the list.

 

So to be clear we're adding mid to late game content, polishing anything sub par, and adding bandits and a main quest, fixing bugs and improving performance. What is so bad about that?

[madmole]

I play vanilla, and I'm definitely concerned. ("Upset" maybe not.)

 

I do see this trend in MM's posts where he's comparing TFP to a company like Bethesda, or 7D2D to AAA titles. I really hope that thinking goes away soon.

 

7D2D isn't Fallout, and TFP are not Bethesda. TFP can do better than that. They are doing better than that. I hope they keep aiming higher.

 

Thanks, but what I mean is I want to be able to ship a game in 3-4 years like they can, and I want to be able to have interesting story, memorable NPCs and quest lines like Bethesda and a moddable framework for mod authors to keep the game interesting with new mods for years to come.

 

As for AAA, I want our game to look and feel close to the quality of a AAA game. That means it runs good on average computers, and visually looks nice and sounds nice, plays nice, all of it. Not "Why does this game look 20 years old and runs like crap?"

[BadabingbadaBOOMSDAY!]

Don't see a topic for this so posing here real quick, any idea when 17.3 will drop? Looking forward to rockets/explosive bolts ect working better

[madmole]

I have, and still am enjoying the heck out of this game. I think it's a work of art. You can't, as an artist , keep making the same "successful" art forever, IMHO. I am excited to see what may come next, considering how they have all honed their craft over these years. I'm not going to say there a lot of forum members who are partial to temper tantrums but...oops.

 

I know right? You would think these guys would be excited to shell out 25 bucks for the next TFP creation instead of whine their 5000 hours was not enough. Its not even done we can add a lot before gold so stop judging.

[Trankitas]

Thanks, but what I mean is I want to be able to ship a game in 3-4 years like they can, and I want to be able to have interesting story, memorable NPCs and quest lines like Bethesda and a moddable framework for mod authors to keep the game interesting with new mods for years to come.

 

As for AAA, I want our game to look and feel close to the quality of a AAA game. That means it runs good on average computers, and visually looks nice and sounds nice, plays nice, all of it. Not "Why does this game look 20 years old and runs like crap?"

 

That is a great goal to achieve! You are talking like the visionary you really are. (sorry for bad english)

[madmole]

I'm curious to know where you got these figures from. From the looks of it a lot of people in this neighborhood would agree that those figures seem absurdly off-base. Are these just estimates based off your own play style, or are you drawing this information from some sort of source?

 

The steam backend shows how many players fit into "hours buckets". Most players are 2 hours or less. I'm like that. I buy games and don't like them and never play them again.

[madmole]

This whole conversation about how many hours the game was designed for is meh..

 

How much did you pay for the game?

How many hours do you have in playing the game already?

Does it exceed what the game was designed for?

Are the developers still going to support/add to the game after gold?

So what are the complaints again?

 

They seem to be married to the idea that the game will be "Insert their passionate idea here". We're not targeting anything but the KS list. Always has and will be that way. We've slipped in about 2000 ideas from the community but now that we have to be realistic and go gold they assume the worst and say we're abandoning them. We don't eve know who "them is" lol. Jax's dream game and guppies are two different things. How do we pick?

[madmole]

I believe the gold support will be about a half-dozen DLC's, one being the New-York city map for $19.95.

 

Worth every penny (I hope)

 

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That doesn't sound like a sustainable business model. Paradox Games charges anywhere from $2 to $20 for each DLC and people keep them in business by paying for them.

 

We have no planned pay for DLCs yet.

[madmole]

Hey Madmole,

 

With RWG in A17, one of the common generators seemed to generate basically an island map.

 

Do you think RWG will have that as an option in the future?

 

Probably.