Game feels like its punishing me for levelling up

[FileMachete]

<snip> that there is nothing you can do with nerd poling, that you can't do with ladders. It's just a matter of convenience (and not having to plan).<snip>

 

(not intending the following as 'argumentative', just adding a couple bits I didn't see mentioned )

 

There's one use of nerd-poling I haven't seen mentioned that I routinely use, and you can't use ladders without doubling the mining; digging down to bedrock then building/nerd-poling back up to make support pillars.

 

One of the reasons I actually sorta, kinda like doing this is that mining straight down is about as mindless as it gets, and for early game when it might take all night to mine 45+ stone blocks, it's about as low involvment/minimize-aggravation as I've found to gather a decent amount of stone. Dig out enough clay first, then start mining down, craft cobblestone then flagstone blocks while going down, nerd-pole back up placing flagstone blocks. For later builds pre-craft concrete blocks. Also acts as test holes to see if theres any ores.

 

But the biggest Catch-22 I haven't seen brought up is simply being able to move around. Lots of spots where climbing/jumping 1-meter is required. Though I may be missing something..? Was kind of assuming that to stop nerd-poling you'd have to limit jump height to <1-meter?

 

Edit: one of the 1-m jump 'requirements' is the in-floor hidden stash thingys in the new POIs. I guess you could be forced to break your way out but it would be a death trap at times and would feel pretty silly to me that I couldn't get myself out of a 'hole in the floorboards'.

 

Sry if I missed a cornerstone of the discussion, it all started to blur on me a bit

[Ghostlight]

If you think that pettiness and being mean is what drived me to discuss about this, or Roland to bring it up to the devs, or Gazz to propose a good alternative, how can you expect to be taken seriously

 

I am simply saying that in my opinion removing nerd-polling from the game would be petty and mean, however it came about. I do not care - nor did I even keep track - of who thought what about whom and when as far as this thread goes. I do not even know who you are or what side of the fence you are sitting on, if any. The fact is removing nerd-polling will annoy many players and there is absolutely no need to do so. And I would consider its removal to be petty and mean.

 

EDIT: I have carefully re-read your posts in this thread and cannot actually find a concrete reason that you think nerd-polling should be removed, or is even why it is worth discussing. I therefore have 2 conclusions available to me:

 

a) You are arguing for trolling sake, for attention etc

 

b) You are one of those petty interferers who care how others get their fun and how they deal with adverse situations in the game. You know how I deal with sudden zombies jumping out of cupboards? I shoot them in the face. Does this approach offend your sensibilities because it's not what you do? Should this exploit be closed down?

[Ghostlight]

So you are verifying what I said above - that there is nothing you can do with nerd poling, that you can't do with ladders. It's just a matter of convenience (and not having to plan).

 

There is nothing I can do with a Shotgun / Hunting Rifle / AK that I can't do with a Bow....so remove these "convenient" weapons from the game?

 

We should be asking to ADD more and more quality of life features for the players, not removing them.

 

And that's the key phrase right there...."quality of life". Nerd-polling is a quality of life feature (if it can even be called a feature, since it's basically just building a block on top of another block). It's harmless, useful, enjoyed by many players (especially builders), necessary for working round several known bugs, and, dare I say it, FUN. Leave it alone it does zero harm.

 

And I actually think it might even be necessary. There are many complex build situations where I am not sure a ladder would even do the job - specifically repairing large, complex bases after a horde night. You know, stuff you cannot "plan" for.

 

I'd LOVE to hear the opinions of serious youtube builders on this. You know the people who champion the game and give it a ton of free publicity. Take away one of their most useful tools....

 

And asking "non-pro" builders to always have planned their builds so meticulously that they can do all the scaffolding in advance and never need to nerd-pole or ladder at any point is simply ludicrous. Very few people who play this game are that gifted. Even folks like myself and my group - who build more or less the same main base every single time - couldn't plan it to that level. And we always like to try little wrinkles and improvements in every build, sometimes with no idea where they are going to go or whether they will work.

[Ghostlight]

I understand that you really don't want to lose the convenience of nerd poling - it is established that it is a convenience in many situations that were mentioned in the previous posts - but also try to at least identify the real reasons other people may have a different opinion.

 

Why would anyone care what other players utilise nerd-polling for? Unless that person was petty and mean-spirited. In which case, I pity them, but only up to the point they actually manage to harm the game by having hair-brained first world (non-)problems taken seriously.

 

Like I said above, you will have to carefully re-voice your opinion as I have re-read the thread and cannot find what your actual objection to nerd-polling is. You have seen and read a hundred reasons why it is a great feature to have in the game, enlighten us in simple terms so I can understand, as why it is a bad thing.

[Katitof]

After following the discussion here and starting a new player in Navezgane, I'm no longer running after zombies to kill, in order to not rush the gamestage. Leveling up is rewarding for the perks, but knowing that trouble comes, I'm taking my time.

 

And I believe that is the way to go.

Rushing to higher level without getting some solid, basic gear is just asking for troubles.

 

Min maxing days of "most efficient grind to end game" are gone, hardcore players will find a new challenge in power leveling and more casual players can take their time, do other stuff and still level up relatively quickly by non-kill related activities.

[Roland]

I am simply saying that in my opinion removing nerd-polling from the game would be petty and mean, however it came about. I do not care - nor did I even keep track - of who thought what about whom and when as far as this thread goes. I do not even know who you are or what side of the fence you are sitting on, if any. The fact is removing nerd-polling will annoy many players and there is absolutely no need to do so. And I would consider its removal to be petty and mean.

 

EDIT: I have carefully re-read your posts in this thread and cannot actually find a concrete reason that you think nerd-polling should be removed, or is even why it is worth discussing. I therefore have 2 conclusions available to me:

 

a) You are arguing for trolling sake, for attention etc

 

b) You are one of those petty interferers who care how others get their fun and how they deal with adverse situations in the game. You know how I deal with sudden zombies jumping out of cupboards? I shoot them in the face. Does this approach offend your sensibilities because it's not what you do? Should this exploit be closed down?

 

c) You are one of those game hobbyists who are incredibly interested in game design and enjoy the academic discussion of game rules and how changes to those rules could make for a better game.

 

Nerdpoling is without a doubt exploitive in some situations and physically impossible to do in real life. Game design-wise it is probably most similar to our ability to carry unrealistic loads in our backpacks so it isn’t going to go anywhere because I agree with you that it is a quality of life feature that sacrifices realism for gameplay’s sake. But there is no harm in discussing it for the sake of talking about speculative game design in general.

 

Some people like adding nails to the frame block recipe while others would see that as drudgery and a petty and mean spirited thing to do just to deny their use during the first few days. Like adding nails, nerdpoling restrictions should probably remain a mod.

 

But it would be a mod I personally would use.

[fragtzack]

Well, in spite of my earlier post on this agreeing with the OP...

 

Got a few levels yesterday, put points into STR and PER and 1 into stealth. Changed out pistol for shotgun. Then went through all my mods and made sure each armor item had a muffled piece. (makes quieter) Then made sure the shotgun had all the best mods.Then tackled two Tier 3 POI's and also changed tactics. New tactics focused on stealth approach above all else and trying to stealth attack with melee. I was able to clear the POI's without undue pain. Sure took a lot more skill on my part to clear the POI...but not that bad. This was right around char level 100.

 

This stealth approach involved trying to sneak up on them to melee(not bow) and performing a whacking headshot with a sledgehammer. With 9 STR, 3 points into head damage, and x2 into stealth multiplier: Would only take 2-4 shots to take down a greenie, depending on if that first hit landed in stealth mode. When ♥♥♥♥ hit the fan, I found the shotgun to be *slightly* better then pistol in a POI because does more damage + better chances of knocking them down it seems. If greenie gets knocked down with shotgun, switch out to sledgehammer to finish them off cause easy to whack them when they get off floor.

 

All that said and done, yes still think the POI game stage balance could use some adjustment down. But tis not that out of whack as had thought before.

[RipClaw]

All that said and done, yes still think the POI game stage balance could use some adjustment down. But tis not that out of whack as had thought before.

 

As far as I know Gazz wrote in another post that there is a bug in the gamestages.xml that causes the green zombies to spawn more often than they should. Should be fixed with the Alpha 17.2.

[RestInPieces]

Was kind of assuming that to stop nerd-poling you'd have to limit jump height to <1-meter

 

Nope, not necessarily. They could for example restrict block/frame placement below you while on air. Or add SI to a lone vertical pile of frames, over x height, while the player is jumping on top.

 

I am simply saying that in my opinion removing nerd-polling from the game would be petty and mean, however it came about. I do not care - nor did I even keep track - of who thought what about whom and when as far as this thread goes. I do not even know who you are or what side of the fence you are sitting on, if any. The fact is removing nerd-polling will annoy many players and there is absolutely no need to do so. And I would consider its removal to be petty and mean.

 

EDIT: I have carefully re-read your posts in this thread and cannot actually find a concrete reason that you think it should be removed, or is even worth discussing. I there have 2 conclusions available:

 

a) You are arguing for trolling sake

 

b) You are one of those petty interferers who care how others get their fun and how they deal with adverse situations in the game. You know how I deal with sudden zombies jumping out of cupboards? I shoot them in the face. Does this approach offend your sensibilities because it's not what you do? Should this exploit be closed down?

 

Why would anyone care what other players utilise nerd-polling for? Unless that person was petty and mean-spirited. In which case, I pity them, but only up to the point they actually manage to harm the game by having hair-brained first world (non-)problems taken seriously.

 

Like I said above, you will have to carefully re-voice your opinion as I have re-read the thread and cannot find what your actual objection to nerd-polling is. You have seen and read a hundred reasons why it is a great feature to have in the game, enlighten us in simple terms so I can understand, as why it is a bad thing.

 

Quite the extensive tantrum you made there. And all you manage to say in all this wall of text, is "I'm right you're wrong", "you're petty and mean","you care how I play" etc. I can keep quoting my previous posts, you can keep not understanding them and calling me petty, mean etc, and we can keep this infinite circle of asininity going forever. What did I expect from someone who thinks that I want "to worsen his gameplay because I am... mean". Please.

 

There is nothing I can do with a Shotgun / Hunting Rifle / AK that I can't do with a Bow....so remove these "convenient" weapons from the game?

 

Irrelevant comparison. Convenience in this case offers a sense of progression, reward and doesn't make other mechanics obsolete.

 

We should be asking to ADD more and more quality of life features for the players, not removing them.

 

Certainly. And like I said in my previous posts you claim to have read, the merit of nerd poling in building is unquestionable.

Also, I am sure that circumventing zombies/defenses, almost instantly travelling in the vertical grid and avoiding enemies in an emergency situation because of their imperfect AI, are also great "quality of life" features in your eyes. Not everyone will see it that way though.

 

And I actually think it might even be necessary. There are many complex build situations where I am not sure a ladder would even do the job - specifically repairing large, complex bases after a horde night. You know, stuff you cannot "plan" for.

 

Again, it has been established that it's convenient and that it doesn't need any planning. "Necessary" though, is a strong word - it means there is no other way. Are you seriously suggesting that something that can be achieved with nerd poling cannot be achieved by stair or ladder? I'd love to hear about those "complex build situations".

 

I'd LOVE to hear the opinions of serious youtube builders on this. You know the people who champion the game and give it a ton of free publicity. Take away one of their most useful tools....

 

...and the earth will be split in two, the skies will rain blood and the day of final judgement will arrive?

 

And asking "non-pro" builders to always have planned their builds so meticulously that they can do all the scaffolding in advance and never need to nerd-pole or ladder at any point is simply ludicrous. Very few people who play this game are that gifted. Even folks like myself and my group - who build more or less the same main base every single time - couldn't plan it to that level. And we always like to try little wrinkles and improvements in every build, sometimes with no idea where they are going to go or whether they will work.

 

How much planning would a vertical ladder pathway at a central point of your structure take and some catways that just let you access its sides...?

 

Anyway... nerd poling will not be threatened or removed because I started a discussion about it so relax. And *if* some change was to be made, I am all for Gazz's idea that minimizes the impact to building, while letting zombies path on the wooden frames. Hell, faatal could even more or less solve nerd poling by changing some priorities in certain situations, without changing it at all.

[Ghostlight]

Then I guess I am genuinely not understanding why nerd-polling is an exploit in any context.

 

To get to the top of a meticulously designed POI?

 

a) There are plenty of other ways to do that if the player is so inclined (ladder, stair building on vertical surfaces, Gyrocopter) why pick on one?

 

b) Many such POIs do not keep their main loot rooms on the roof anyway.

 

c) Have you tried many tier 5 POIs on Insane? Just one of them can take more time than an in-game day once GS has hit something like 500. Finding a shortcut is a perfectly acceptable thing to do in such circumstances, be it sneaking around and avoiding combat, wall-smashing, or nerd-poling. Grats to the player for being clever.

 

d) After a (very short) while, the dungeon POIs get old. If you seek to always make the player tackle them in the full-on legit manner, you will simply alienate your playerbase and drive players away. Look, I personally enjoy tackling tier 5 POIs "properly" and spending 500 Shotgun shells doing so, but I am pretty sure I am in the minority in this regard.

[Ghostlight]

As far as I know Gazz wrote in another post that there is a bug in the gamestages.xml that causes the green zombies to spawn more often than they should. Should be fixed with the Alpha 17.2.

 

This scares me to death. I can't remember when I started seeing Irradiated in POIs. It's too long ago. I am level 150+ now on day 80 something and GS is over 500. What I do know is there was no point anywhere in my play-through where I thought there were too many. Quite the reverse. Simple fact is there is not enough challenge in tier 5 POIs even on Insane. A player specced for combat at the level I am at will still destroy an army of Greenies. We need GS to get higher faster, not slower!!

 

The recent complaints about wandering hordes have resulted in those being nerfed to the point of pointlessness (yes even on Insane). I got a GS 500 wandering horde recently made up of ELEVEN SLOW-MOVING GRUNTS!!! The Horror! Please don't make POIs next for a similar nerf bat, there is already too little challenge in the game, and it's all the fun I have left outside horde night.

[Jedo]

Then I guess I am genuinely not understanding why nerd-polling is an exploit in any context.

 

To get to the top of a meticulously designed POI?

 

a) There are plenty of other ways to do that if the player is so inclined (ladder, stair building on vertical surfaces, Gyrocopter) why pick on one?

 

b) Many such POIs do not keep their main loot rooms on the roof anyway.

 

c) Have you tried many tier 5 POIs on Insane? Just one of them can take more time than an in-game day once GS has hit something like 500. Finding a shortcut is a perfectly acceptable thing to do in such circumstances, be it sneaking around and avoiding combat, wall-smashing, or nerd-poling. Grats to the player for being clever.

 

d) After a (very short) while, the dungeon POIs get old. If you seek to always make the player tackle them in the full-on legit manner, you will simply alienate your playerbase and drive players away. Look, I personally enjoy tackling tier 5 POIs "properly" and spending 500 Shotgun shells doing so, but I am pretty sure I am in the minority in this regard.

 

Without citing all of the things along the way (meaning, this might be a bit repetitious):

 

a) Those other ways require time and resources appropriate to the endeavor. I think most people define "exploit" in this game as something that has a great (approaching infinite?) benefit with minimal risk or cost. As has been noted, wood frames are basically an infinite resource with regards to nerdpoling, and they take almost no time. (You might say that ladders or stair building requires almost no time, but the outside of some POIs makes it difficult to do this without first demolishing part of the building. That's where the time factor comes in for them.)

 

b) I guess it's good that the conversation isn't just about the ability to nerdpole to the roof loot rooms...

 

c) Finding a shortcut is acceptable. One which requires almost no time or resources? Well, you know where that's going.

 

d) The "alienate the playerbase" argument is so overused, and I'm not sure that it's a worthwhile argument anyway. (I suspect that this is not the place to have a longer discussion about that one.)

[FileMachete]

Hadn't thought of that RestInPieces; so they could potentially 'stop' nerd-poling and still allow >1-meter jump height. Interesting!

Won't lie, I'd be bummed if I wound up having to dig 2x wide to make in-ground support pillars.

And honestly for me, it would have more to do with it requiring 'attention' than the "extra work".

 

On a related note; one block I've always wanted was something like a metal Pillar100 with an inside ladder. So you'd climb up inside the pipe. Almost certainly too much work to add this bit but if that same 1-meter-pipe-w-ladder could also act as a concrete form that you could 'fill' from the top, well, that'd be awesome

---

Back to topic note: just ran the Shotgun Factory. Burned through 400+ 7.62 & ~150 Shotgun shells. Have Lucky Looter at 3/5 and only saw Tier 1 & T2 stuff. Scrapped every single weapon looted. Resource wise it was a horrible idea to run it.

 

Now I know it's contentious, so I'll just say that for me, I'd really like to walk away from a major POI like that one with a decent Plus in the books. Since it was the Shotgun Factory I don't think a couple green or blue shotguns, a couple mods and at least 500 shotgun shells would be unreasonable. But I'm a greedy SOB

[Ghostlight]

a) Those other ways require time and resources appropriate to the endeavor. I think most people define "exploit" in this game as something that has a great (approaching infinite?) benefit with minimal risk or cost. As has been noted, wood frames are basically an infinite resource with regards to nerdpoling, and they take almost no time. (You might say that ladders or stair building requires almost no time, but the outside of some POIs makes it difficult to do this without first demolishing part of the building. That's where the time factor comes in for them.)

 

Nerd polling up to a tier 5 roof is a lengthy business compared to landing on it with our flying vehicles.

[RestInPieces]

To get to the top of a meticulously designed POI?

 

You said you have read the previous discussion. Not only.

 

a) There are plenty of other ways to do that if the player is so inclined (ladder, stair building, Gyrocopter) why pick on one?

 

What Jedo said. Also mentioned in earlier conversations. And not picking one. Discussions are being/have been made for others too, like the gyro.

 

b) Many such POIs do not keep their main loot rooms on the roof anyway.

 

Yes, people will nerd pole at those that do, obviously. As I say above and below (since the questions are very similar to each other), it is a cost/risk free shortcut that serves nothing when exploring. The loot has to be randomized anyway for 100 other different reasons as Dimpy very correctly said.

 

c) Have you tried many tier 5 POIs on Insane? Just one of them can take more time than an in-game day once GS has hit something like 500. Finding a shortcut is a perfectly acceptable thing to do, be it sneaking around and avoiding combat, wall-smashing, or nerd-poling. Grats to the player for being clever.

 

Jump spamming while placing blocks below you should reward you for clever gameplay...? Ok...

 

Anyway, yes it is perfectly acceptable.

Breaking the wall makes noise and takes time. Making a ladder takes materials, more time than nerd poling and on most buildings you have to break blocks in order to get to the roof, because of the roof half-blocks. Also zombies can path on it. Sneaking requires (or should require) investment, skill and is not always possible.

 

That is when the game should reward you: when there is some risk/cost/skill involved. Because if it always does, or rewards you for, like, walking - the risk/cost/skill elements suddenly become meaningless.

 

d) After a (very short) while, the dungeon POIs get old. If you seek to always make the player tackle them in the full-on legit manner, you will simply alienate your playerbase and drive players away. Look, I personally enjoy tackling tier 5 POIs and spending 500 Shotgun shells doing so, but I am pretty sure I am in the minority in this regard.

 

This problem, POIs getting old, warrants its own solutions. And what you describe is a combination of many problems, like too many green zombie spawns. Removing it might frustrate some people indeed - it's natural, especially since they have gotten used it. Many changes have during the development.

 

Hadn't thought of that RestInPieces; so they could potentially 'stop' nerd-poling and still allow >1-meter jump height. Interesting!

 

There are probably 100 better ways I haven't thought about - if they ever choose to make a change, hope they find the best that will affect building as little as possible.

 

Won't lie, I'd be bummed if I wound up having to dig 2x wide to make in-ground support pillars. And honestly for me, it would have more to do with it requiring 'attention' than the "extra work".

 

Admittedly, it does require a lot of extra work, but if it also requires somewhat stricter attention, isn't that a good thing for the non-lazy side of yourself?

 

Resource wise it was a horrible idea to run it.

 

Now I know it's contentious, so I'll just say that for me, I'd really like to walk away from a major POI like that one with a decent Plus in the books. Since it was the Shotgun Factory I don't think a couple green or blue shotguns, a couple mods and at least 500 shotgun shells would be unreasonable. But I'm a greedy SOB

 

It's perfectly reasonable to ask that, same goes for me as well. It has to change at some point. People are talking about legendary loot etc - personally I don't think that elongating the loot progression to crazy heights would solve much (could create more problems). The game has a lot of content that it doesn't use much already. Raising the value of existing gear and pacing it, or creating chase items that are tied with survival/utility and the game in general capitalizing on exploration much more than it does now, would be way more effective.

[RipClaw]

This scares me to death. I can't remember when I started seeing Irradiated in POIs. It's too long ago. I am level 150+ now on day 80 something and GS is over 500. What I do know is there was no point anywhere in my play-through where I thought there were too many. Quite the reverse. Simple fact is there is not enough challenge in tier 5 POIs even on Insane. A player specced for combat at the level I am at will still destroy an army of Greenies. We need GS to get higher faster, not slower!!

 

Of course in the end you are Superman but at the moment what is waiting for me in a POI is challenging enough for me.

But that's not my favorite activity in this game anyway. I much prefer to work in the mine and build my base.

 

For people like you who prefer to fight, I'm sure mods will come soon that will give you a real challenge.

 

I also don't think that Gazz will reduce the difficulty at higher gamestages but only make the transition smoother than it is at the moment. Gazz is not exactly known for making things easier or feeling sorry for weaker players. Therefore, you should have little to fear.

 

The recent complaints about wandering hordes have resulted in those being nerfed to the point of pointlessness (yes even on Insane). I got a GS 500 wandering horde recently made up of ELEVEN SLOW-MOVING GRUNTS!!! The Horror! Please don't make POIs next for a similar nerf bat, there is already too little challenge in the game, and it's all the fun I have left outside horde night.

 

I hate to say it but there is no gamestage 500 wandering horde. In the XML file there are only 50 wandering hordes listed together with the comment:

 

These will wrap around at 50

Will probably have to undo that later. Rev 19924 /19944

 

I also don't see that the hordes have been reduced compared to the experimental version. They only pass at a slightly greater distance from the player so they don't get aggro on the player every time.

 

Also, wandering hordes have never been a particular challenge.

 

If you are bored then invite some screamers to dinner. I can send you some of the ones who visit me all the time.

[Ghostlight]

I am aware wandering hordes are a modulus 50 calculation but their numbers have also been severely decreased (from A16). E.g If you were lucky enough to get a nice early Doggie horde, it used to be 6 to 12 Dogs, now it is 1 to 6.

[RipClaw]

I am aware wandering hordes are a modulus 50 calculation but their numbers have also been severely decreased (from A16). E.g If you were lucky enough to get a nice early Doggie horde, it used to be 6 to 12 Dogs, now it is 1 to 6.

 

I may be wrong but haven't the HP of the dogs in the Alpha 17.1 increased ? Maybe this was done as compensation ?

I would be really happy about 12 dogs at the moment. So many bones on 4 legs

[Ghostlight]

If they did increase, I didn't notice.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

So many bones on 4 legs

 

Absolutely ;P

[fishjie]

No, I am saying USE THE DIFFICULTY SETTING. If you feel there are too many rads, lower it and there will be less. If you want more challenge increase it. Complaining about the occurrence of rads is just dumb when there is a setting that will fix it to your preference.

 

 

 

So the difficulty is making you avoid POIs and quests, but you don't feel the need to lower it. Mind blown.

 

You kind of missed the point there. Why would I lower the difficulty? I've always played on the default. The level progression in A15 and A16 were perfectly fine, although I definitely did not like irradiateds started showing up in A16, but definitely doable. My point in original post is, the level progression in this game is broken - and on default difficulty, it should be a linear progression. Clearly the game is moving toward an RPG style with A16 level gating and now A17 attribute system. If they want to do an RPG, it is insane to do level scaling of enemies but not level scaling of loot. Its the worst of both worlds. Personally, I always thought level scaling of enemies was a terribad mechanic. It was really broken in Oblivion, but not as bad in Skyrim, and perfect in Morrowind. Pretty sure 7D2D is basing the level scaling on The Elder Scrolls, except they forgot that the loot in these games gets better to compensate.

 

The level progression should be linear and upward. Currently, the progression is a V shape - you go down in power as you level up (LOL), and then FINALLY after you hit a critical mass of COMBAT perks, you go up. That's why your suggestion of lower the difficulty was unecessary and missing the point. i didn't need to lower the difficulty. I did exactly what I said I would. Mine, craft stuff to sell to trader, collect bird nests, hunt zombies in the wild, and level up a ton. Now I am level 130, game stage 350 or so, and I just cleared an apartment for a tier V hidden fetch quest. Now that I have 4 pts in heavy armor, pain tolerance, healing factor, plus heavy weapons, sex rex, meelee headshots, and sneak, and ranged headshots, I am finally able to enjoy the POI content. I sneak inside, switch to steel arrows, aim for the head. Hit them a few more times before they close on meelee range, and then I switch to sledge, and the knockdown procs allow me to stunlock them. I still occasionally lose if greens swarm me, and its bs, but that's OK. For the most part I'm finally able to face tank them. I'd definitely prefer it if greens were limited to end game dungeon POIs with loot reward to compensate.

 

It was just stupid and asinine that it took so long before I was able to do so - and that at the start of the game - i got weaker - not stronger as I gained levels. That's not how RPGs work. Maybe if the game were an FPS and I could properly backpedal, circle strafe, and the meelee hitboxes weren't broken, and runspeed wasn't nerfed when reloading, then sure, I could play on even higher difficulty and still win. As is though, game is clearly going in RPG direction, and they implemented level scaling without loot scaling. But that is basic RPG design. Higher risk higher reward. Not - gain levels - get weaker lol

 

If you think the game is too easy, play on hardest difficulty, and mod it so that greens spawn everywhere around you on day 1. Don't ruin the RPG game for everyone else

[Cirion]

I am starting to see the same trend in literally every discussion thread now.

 

-> Discussion about imbalance

 

-> "Just lower difficulty"

 

-> Legitimate discussion about imbalance ignored

 

Yes, sure, lowering the difficulty makes it possible to "win" without dying, but in more cases than not, does not fix the imbalance, just makes the imbalance easier to deal with, and not as noticeable.

 

Imbalance does not equal difficulty.

 

In fact, I can name many games that even on hardest difficulties are very balanced, and if you're clever and smart, the game actually gets easier end-game. A few examples

 

Mass effect

Dragon Age

Infinite Undiscovery

Phantasy Star Online (Well, except some aspects of Episode 2 and 4... but eh.... even then, with a smart team, even these are easy)

... Just to name a couple.

 

... Which BTW, guess what... are RPG's. Because, your skills and weapons etc actually *correctly* scale with the difficulty, giving you a chance at the high end of things. And anyone who has played Mass Effect 2 on Insanity difficulty knows this game is NOT FREAKING EASY. yet, the difficulty is rather balanced (except for one or two encounters in the game, which nearly had me rage quit LOL) from start to finish, which 7D2D ... is not. Infinite undiscovery can also be quite punishing at the lower stages, but with perseverance the balance is fair especially if you take the time to actually level up crafting skill and whatnot.

 

So when I say Imbalance does not equal difficulty the reverse is also true balance does not equal easy.

 

I hope I've emphasized the point enough. People seem to readily confuse the difference between balance and difficulty. They are two entirely different words.

[Ghostlight]

You kind of missed the point there.....The level progression should be linear and upward. Currently, the progression is a V shape - you go down in power as you level up (LOL), and then FINALLY after you hit a critical mass of COMBAT perks, you go up.

 

I didn't miss the point I just disagree with it. It's simply not my experience, and I am nearly level 200 current play-through. I felt progression was, and is, completely linear and has been from level 1. I never felt a spike in difficulty or number of rads, it all felt linear to me. Who's right?

 

Having said that, I play co-op mostly and thus have been combat-specced since level 1. Of course it felt linear to me. If you are actually saying the problem is the poor sod that has to spec Int or the poor sod playing solo - and it is their difficulty that is V-shaped, then yes I agree, always have, but that is a completely different balance issue from "too many rads too soon, wah wah". There are not too many rads too soon for me. Not by a long chalk. Difficulty progression is just fine - and linear - for a combat-specced character.

[Cirion]

I didn't miss the point I just disagree with it. It's simply not my experience, and I am nearly level 200 current play-through. I felt progression was, and is, completely linear and has been from level 1. I never felt a spike in difficulty or number of rads, it all felt linear to me. Who's right?

 

Having said that, I play co-op mostly and thus have been combat-specced since level 1. Of course it felt linear to me. If you are actually saying the problem is the poor sod that has to spec Int or the poor sod playing solo - and it is their difficulty that is V-shaped, then yes I agree, always have, but that is a completely different balance issue from "too many rads too soon, wah wah". There are not too many rads too soon for me. Not by a long chalk. Difficulty progression is just fine - and linear - for a combat-specced character.

 

Of course you're doing fine, you admit it - you're combat specc. Of course the balance is fine FOR THAT. Also, even for single players, in A16 it wasn't an issue. The new perks in A17 is a step backwards because it made things more imbalanced. A16 felt a lot more balanced than the A17 system at least in terms of gamestage.

 

This is why one proposed solution is this (not saying its THE solution but its more balanced than what we have now)

 

Only killing zombies should increase game stage. Not leveling up in general.

 

This would indirectly cause only the people who combat specialize to get a high game stage. Plus it would incentivize stealth, unless you want to raise gamestage. The combat users would be able to handle it, so it would be fine. The people who are INT specced, can just choose to avoid combat where feasible and keep their GS low that way. Obviously you can't just avoid all zombies forever to be able to do many things like certain quests and whatnot, so its not like the INT specced guys can avoid ALL combat (well you could, but it would hamstring you from various things).

[Roland]

I am starting to see the same trend in literally every discussion thread now.

 

-> Discussion about imbalance

 

-> "Just lower difficulty"

 

-> Legitimate discussion about imbalance ignored

 

Yes, sure, lowering the difficulty makes it possible to "win" without dying, but in more cases than not, does not fix the imbalance, just makes the imbalance easier to deal with, and not as noticeable.

 

Imbalance does not equal difficulty.

 

In fact, I can name many games that even on hardest difficulties are very balanced, and if you're clever and smart, the game actually gets easier end-game. A few examples

 

Mass effect

Dragon Age

Infinite Undiscovery

Phantasy Star Online (Well, except some aspects of Episode 2 and 4... but eh.... even then, with a smart team, even these are easy)

... Just to name a couple.

 

... Which BTW, guess what... are RPG's. Because, your skills and weapons etc actually *correctly* scale with the difficulty, giving you a chance at the high end of things. And anyone who has played Mass Effect 2 on Insanity difficulty knows this game is NOT FREAKING EASY. yet, the difficulty is rather balanced (except for one or two encounters in the game, which nearly had me rage quit LOL) from start to finish, which 7D2D ... is not. Infinite undiscovery can also be quite punishing at the lower stages, but with perseverance the balance is fair especially if you take the time to actually level up crafting skill and whatnot.

 

So when I say Imbalance does not equal difficulty the reverse is also true balance does not equal easy.

 

I hope I've emphasized the point enough. People seem to readily confuse the difference between balance and difficulty. They are two entirely different words.

 

I like what you posted but I don't believe that it applies completely to 7 Days to Die. True, this game is heading in an RPG direction but it is in no way an RPG. It is a hybrid game that includes RPG elements. It is also a survival game and a survival game needs to have elements that can legitimately threaten survival so that risk of death is real. Progressing in such a way that you can remain ahead of the threat curve makes for a very boring survival game.

 

The way I see the balance needing to be is a leapfrog model between player and game. The player starts weak and the game starts strong. then the player progresses and catches up and maybe surpasses the game threats for a short time. But then the game leapfrogs ahead in difficulty so the player must once again be wise and careful because they can again die. The player once again progresses to the point of meeting the game threats and then surpassing them but then the game jumps ahead again. And so on.

 

I think this sort of model would agree best with the RPG/survival hybrid game we are playing. You get to progress to meet the threats but then new threats once again put your survival into jeopardy so you must continue to progress.

[FileMachete]

There are probably 100 better ways I haven't thought about - if they ever choose to make a change, hope they find the best that will affect building as little as possible.

 

me too!

 

Admittedly, it does require a lot of extra work, but if it also requires somewhat stricter attention, isn't that a good thing for the non-lazy side of yourself?

 

only when that side ain't wiped after a long day

 

It's perfectly reasonable to ask that, same goes for me as well. It has to change at some point. People are talking about legendary loot etc - personally I don't think that elongating the loot progression to crazy heights would solve much (could create more problems). The game has a lot of content that it doesn't use much already. Raising the value of existing gear and pacing it, or creating chase items that are tied with survival/utility and the game in general capitalizing on exploration much more than it does now, would be way more effective.

 

1) I just -really- hope they don't put themselves in the same fugly Legendary Loot/Weapons box that Empyrion did.

 

2) I personally think that Legendary Recipes would be a solid reward. So Shotgun Factory might have a wicked semi-auto, Legenday shotgun recipe.

 

3) Definately do -not- want to see Tier 5/6 Schematic's as rewards/requirements for Legendary Weapons; that's basically #1, but would be much worse in 7dtd due the point cost required to make a T5/6 schematic.

 

But full disclosure; I really don't like Schematics as a single-use, must have to make X item.

This is the perfect emoticon for how I feel about being able to make something, then, as -soon- as I finished making it, I -completely!- forgot how!!

heh