Learning by doing lite: the sytem Fable used

[Dimpy]

I just remembered the way the RPG Fable handled leveling and experience. Performing certain actions would give you points in a certain category. These points could only be spent to increase attributes in a certain category. For example swinging a weapon would increase strength points, which could increase damage resistance or melee damage. However, you'd also get general XP that could be spent in any category.

 

There was also another mechanic, the "combat multiplier" designed to prevent out of context actions. Basically, it was a crude measure of how "in combat" you were; the higher the number, the more experience you gain. Successive hits on enemies would increase the multiplier, and it would slowly decay. It went from one(out of combat) to somewhere 10 between 15, although skilled players could get it up to 30 if they never get hit. All the skills in Fable were combat skills so a blanket combat multiplier works there, but I could imagine that in 7dtd there could be more than just combat, like "mining multiplier", "building multiplier", "journey multiplier", "looting multiplier".

 

Also keep in mind that we don't have to have the categories of learning by doing line up with the A17 attributes.

 

I just thought I'd throw this out here since a lot of people are talking about learning by doing, and this system seems a little different than what I've been been hearing suggested, and it seems like it could spark some discussion.

[secateurs]

Learning by doing, in any capacity, just rewards un fun grinding.

[JCrook1028]

Learning by doing, in any capacity, just rewards un fun grinding.

 

Only if you cheese the system, otherwise it rewards you for doing the stuff you actually do. For example, I was never one of those who would stand on a spike taking damage and healing myself, as some did...

[OneArmedBandit]

Learning by doing, in any capacity, just rewards un fun grinding.

 

Not true!

 

i.e. Kingdom Come: Deliverance uses such a system (level by doing with the only exception of paying trainers to level a certain skill, which can only be done 5 times per skill though) and it works perfectly. It just feels natural, no grinding involved.

 

And even if you go to the training yard just for the sake of leveling your skills in sword fighting you do an actual sparing-fight, just stupidly hitting a straw-puppet 1.000.000 times won't work.

 

the problem is that it depends on more than the system itself. In order to enjoy "learning by doing" the "doing"-part needs to be fun, and to be precise: it needs to be fun from the first moment on! If you moan about chopping wood on day 1 with a lvl1 axe because you need to do it for 10 minutes straight in order to get a sufficient ammount of wood (and with "sufficient" of course I don't mean having enough to build a fortress), that would be no fun imho and you see it as grinding until you reach the point where it is no chore anymore. Thats the moment when the system failed, but that does not make it a bad system in general!

 

As they say: the sound makes the musik

[Khulkhuum]

All in for the idea. Although this could get cheesed as any system (even the current), I always liked how Fable used its systems to distribute XP. This would definitely be more in favor for people who prefer specific play styles and focus on something for a while.

 

The problem would be in which proportions to distribute general XP and specific XP, but also how XP works. Currently we simply get one counter for needed XP to the next level and it would require more for each category and more level counters for each category. IF we use the current system.

 

Reworking how XP is added in a similar manner as in Fable would need another big update and i don't think it will come. One can only hope though...

 

Considering the tweaking of what gives what - This would also take a lot of time, with people left and right dissatisfied because of this or that. Another reason why we sadly won't see it.

[Hek Harris]

Learning by doing, in my opinion, is a viable system for a one-run-game. But with the awesome replayability of 7 Days, sorry, but I don't want to be forced to use 1000 times a shotgun to get good at it, mine 1000 rocks to raise my mining skills, open 1000 trashbags to be a good looter. It's learning by being bored. The new system allows me to try different styles of character builds without having to spend an awful time doing things repeatedly. I totally understand that some of us are nostalgic of this system, but I prefer the new one that fits much better to my style of play (based on the fact that a game never lasts more than a hundred hours).

[hotpoon]

Only if you cheese the system, otherwise it rewards you for doing the stuff you actually do. For example, I was never one of those who would stand on a spike taking damage and healing myself, as some did...

Exactly. If someone's game is ruined by cheesing, then it serves them right for having no self control. The rest of us enjoyed LBD because we were getting regular tiny rewards towards the things we wanted to do which meant that nothing felt like a waste of time.

[hotpoon]

Learning by doing, in my opinion, is a viable system for a one-run-game. But with the awesome replayability of 7 Days, sorry, but I don't want to be forced to use 1000 times a shotgun to get good at it, mine 1000 rocks to raise my mining skills, open 1000 trashbags to be a good looter. It's learning by being bored. The new system allows me to try different styles of character builds without having to spend an awful time doing things repeatedly. I totally understand that some of us are nostalgic of this system, but I prefer the new one that fits much better to my style of play (based on the fact that a game never lasts more than a hundred hours).

 

That's why the A16.4 combo system was a win for more people than the current one. I naturally earned xp for things I enjoy doing, and those few general points I got to spend on anything could go towards something I found to be a chore.

[Khulkhuum]

Consider the amount of things you could gain XP in (both in how little and how many categories) and how you could change it through XMLs. This would give obviously many hours to play with, create specific builds, etc.

 

Shooting 1000 times a shotgun would contribute into many other weapons, but also doing many other things would grant general XP, which you could use for shotguns. You would gain a lot less general XP, but from so many sources that you wouldn't mind it. Come to think of it, it would be quite similar to 16.4 ... Yet, i would generalize more, not simply give every "skill" its own bar, but for specific groups of "skill". Like shooting in general with weapons, realoding, using tools, crafting, upgrading blocks, etc. General groups of XP gain.

 

On the other hand, TFP have completely stepped out of the 16.4 style of skills, so i don't think we'll see anything similar.

[Hek Harris]

[HungryZombie]

Personally I don't really care about the skill system. Points, learn by doing. They both take me to the same place in different ways.

 

I will say what bugged by about A16 was that just by playing naturally, I felt the skills I liked didn't level enough to give me a sense of progression or keep up with my needs. I felt compelled to run around and shoot or hit things to level up.

 

I remember being so frustrated at having hit everything with a stone axe for hours to level up construction so I could get a mixer.

 

Forget about leveling armor skill.

 

With A17 I have to admit I've felt no frustration other than wishing I had more points to spend.

[PoppaTot]

Personally I don't really care about the skill system. Points, learn by doing. They both take me to the same place in different ways.

 

I will say what bugged by about A16 was that just by playing naturally, I felt the skills I liked didn't level enough to give me a sense of progression or keep up with my needs. I felt compelled to run around and shoot or hit things to level up.

 

I remember being so frustrated at having hit everything with a stone axe for hours to level up construction so I could get a mixer.

 

Forget about leveling armor skill.

 

With A17 I have to admit I've felt no frustration other than wishing I had more points to spend.

 

I felt the exact opposite, I leveled without notice most of the time and never found my self thinking "man, I really should go kill some zeds so I can unlock insert item" like I do now. Still having fun either way though. The balances have really been beneficial.

[HungryZombie]

I felt the exact opposite, I leveled without notice most of the time and never found my self thinking "man, I really should go kill some zeds so I can unlock insert item" like I do now. Still having fun either way though. The balances have really been beneficial.

 

And nothing is wrong with that. Trying to convince you to like what I like would be trying to convince you to like chocolate if you hated it. Liking Vanilla or Chocolate is neither right nor wrong.

 

However I'm glad the devs lean more to my tastes in this area than yours.

[PoppaTot]

And nothing is wrong with that. Trying to convince you to like what I like would be trying to convince you to like chocolate if you hated it. Liking Vanilla or Chocolate is neither right nor wrong.

 

However I'm glad the devs lean more to my tastes in this area than yours.

 

For the record, vanilla is better lol

[HungryZombie]

For the record, vanilla is better lol

 

I knew I'd bring you over to the dark side...

[Benjiro]

On the other hand, TFP have completely stepped out of the 16.4 style of skills, so i don't think we'll see anything similar.

 

Its kind of ironic how much negative feedback the devs gave about the A15 system but they simply reintroduce another "restrictive" system with a different nature. Only taking out the realism and going full blown MMO style.

 

If we see the evolution.

 

A15: Experience based system + Books + Perks.

Restrictive but very realistic. Your character was never overpowered because your own usage limits kicked in.

 

A16: Semi Experience based system + less Books + XP + Perks.

Less restive but also less realistic.

 

A17: XP + Perks.

Realism is taken behind the barn and shot in the head with a 12 gauge. But more restrictive again thanks to S/A/I... plus levels. Frankly, its probably the most restrictive system of all 3, despite the fact that you can spend point anywhere with its level or skill gate. Bookcases became obsolete, where it was a item you searched for.

 

Frankly, now your character can become so overpowered, that the people who complained about A15 characters being overpowered, probably think of them now as some weak characters.

 

 

Despite all this, there is no way the devs step back on this change, i think its even impossible given how everything is now based upon XP and Buffs. Unless the devs want to spend another 18 months for A18.

 

As with most changes to 7D2D, the moment the developers rewrite a system, they do not step back. They will simply dump time and time "rewriting/tweaking/balancing". What was the exact same argument they used for the A15->A17 constant changes. The old A15/A16 system are too hard to balance. Yet, here we are with non-stop work being done trying to balance the whole new MMO style.

 

This is what happens when people can pick and choice where they put in points. People learn to min-max very fast to create extreme powerful characters over a short time. And then we end up with identical characters because people pick the strongest skills automatically.