meganoth

What wouldn't change is their long list of planned features (where they for example could have seen they wanted this and that part of 7D2D to get an overhaul, this and that to be added). And their tastes, which largely differ from yours. So sure, anything is possible, but what is the most likely? That it generally goes in the direction of their current tastes in gaming or that they suddenly turn into copies of you? The butterfly effect may make me change my mind one day and not order my favourite food at my favourite restaurant. But the next time I go there I likely will order my favourite food again.

Can you ex-plain what you mean by that?

7d2d 2 would be exactly what we get now, because the devs would have developed in the same direction they have done now. For example they were not too happy with lbd. So after releasing something looking like A15 or A16 they would have made the same changes and added a perk system, improved everything and landed almost exactly where they are now. There would be two differences: 1) There would have been a stable game in say 2018/19, and more stable mods for that, correct. If bandits were included they would be rather disappointing zombies in bandit skins (just like they were in a few mods that had enabled them). Or they would have been postponed to 7D2D 2. And 2) we would be about a year behind now because polishing for release and after release would have taken nearly a year.

You could make a bug report. Then it would get assigned to the creator of that POI. In Pimp Dreams he probably never sees it.

The game seems to get called with a paramter "-dx9". Was that a left-over from a previous experiment?

No question about that. But bugs are everywhere and there are thousands of combinations of hardware and software and only a few samples can realistically be tested. Since TFP actually provides a native linux version (which only a few developers do) I find it understandable if they won't actually test the game with proton and an assortement of linux distris (note, I don't know if they do or not). Even if they do they could easily have missed this bug as a fresh Mint install did actually fix your problem and they obviously can't have tested every linux distribution. Many developers don't even test the proton version when it is the only one provided. Your bug could be everywhere: In Pulse audio, in its Mint integration, in proton or in the game. To find out more the first step would have been to post the logfiles of the game to this forum (there is a pinned thread telling you how to do this). Telling them or us that there is a bug somewhere and you don't like that accomplishes nothing at all. That a reinstall of Mint fixed the problem likely means that either some configuration you did (maybe for other programs) or a hardware detection and configuration bug in Mint may be the culprit. By the way, I use ubuntu with the game running native. I had problems with mods when I started out with A15, since A17 or A18 I had no or almost no compatibility problems with mods anymore. But I only use overhaul mods so probably those are big enough that they get tested with linux as well. What I am saying, if your experiences are from a long time ago it might be worth testing the native version again.

Are you refering to the NPCs that turned up in A16? That's a myth (AFAIK), the NPCs used in the mods then were NPCs developed by TFP but deemed not good enough so they weren't activated in the game. The modders did just turn them on (again AFAIK).

In the list of things done one important thing is missing: Using the launcher to delete all game settings. To do that, she has to start the game launcher, change to the tools tab and select the last option that says something about clearing configuration. Then she has to turn on all checkmarks and activate. Warning: This will delete all games and worlds you have created. If the problem persists, post the logs of both server and client ! Since this is a problem with multiplayer it is important to see both sides of such a connection. And please read the information thread here in the Support Section that tells you to read it. It tells you how to find the log files we want and how to post them. We don't want pictures of red lines on the screen players often post here, that is useless information. We need the complete logfiles that the game creates as a textfile on your harddisk

It could be non-alcoholic beer 😁. (Yeah, I was only searching for "alcohol" to make sure there isn't any in the game)

If you assume they had made no daycare POI then players would still wonder why there are no zombie kids. Also 7days has a brewery but there is no alcohol in it. (And except for Grandpas Moonshine there is actually no alcohol in the game, i.e. surely less than would be expected)

You have a severe case of selective reading IMHO. The water change IS about water and removing jars. Just that Roland additionally said that Joel and Rick have zero problems with choosing trader-centric solutions for a problem. Before I get the "semantics" argument back, this just means it is no use arguing with "trader gets too powerful" with them, the central game loop of doing quests for the trader is a given. I still see no reason for them to be against an increase of filter probability in loot for example.

Theoretically the cross-platform feature could result in limitations. For example, will TFP add or keep option settings that automatically prevent cross-platform play? It is possible to solve this with a warning text on the option, but that might not be acceptable to MS and Sony. Note there is a big hypothetical "if" here, i.e. if MS/Sony would intervene or TFP simply wants to avoid the possibility or anything hindering cross-play.

The former, though I would assume that a veteran player doesn't need that safety net anyway. A fire extinguisher is a safety net for fire, it doesn't imply there is something different avaliable to help with flooding 😉 Agreed It is a major difference since the 6 year old would get no ice cream or has to go to his room because he deliberately did it. Grandpa would still get his ice cream. ... Talking about it has a chance of them noticing a potential problem (or even solution). In the past that might have induced them to check their telemetry, since gamesparks is no more I don't know what they do for checking. Telemetry would have been the reason why they ultimately change something but without the initial forum posting they would never have asked the right question. It also has a chance of reminding a developer with the same opinion as you to put it on the topic list of the next team meeting. A good argument may even change the mind of a developer so he brings it up in internal discussion. It also could give a developer an idea just by thinking about it again. Some developers and testers do read the forum so I heard. But they are forbidden to tell you internal secrets and the easiest way to do that is not to post. And I think one task of the super moderator is to sum up what happens in the forum to the devs. I am sure they are aware that water is still discussed here and on steam. It is like Schrödingers cat. All we can do is put radioactive material into the black box and hope that some rays hit the cat 😁. But we have no influence what the radioactive material does in the box and we will likely never know what happens in the box. We will only see the box opened each alpha version and see a living or dead cat.

For TFP? Not according to Roland who was listening in on their design meetings at that time. He actually said at least once that they started with the objective to remove the single container left in the game after every other container had been removed. And we heard from Madmole that water jars "is some leftover minecraft mechanic the engine had when we started and never a design we wanted". Game Designers actually care about a clean structure of their design just like UI designers care about dividing lines having the same width or other details I don't even see if someone tells me what to look for. That we have other priorities goes without saying. I hope @Roland chimes in as he is in a position to provide the facts. But from everything said by developers and Roland I am very sure that removing empty jars to clean up the design was a major reason and that they would have done the change irrespective of whether it reduces items for the engine or not. When Madmole was talking about it, he said "One less wasted slot in inventory.". In other words "reducing (useless) items for the player", not "reducing items for the engine". As I said in the other post, I would guess that increasing the probabilites for filters in loot might be possible if many players ask for that. When software is designed by a team there are often different solutions proposed and in design meetings they decide which option is the best one. They may start with a list of reasons why they want to do a change, but some of those reasons are low on that list and in the design meeting even more reasons may come up that speak for or against one of the different solutions. Such a list can get pretty long but many of those reasons are "soft" reasons, they influence the decision but are not mandatory. Most are probably even forgotten after the meeting and would only turn up again if they were to talk about that topic again. Madmole doesn't strike me as someone who would talk endlessly about a subject, when he answers people here in the forum he would not describe such a design meeting in detail, he would just list the most important reasons, essentially the original (mandatory) design goals. And that isn't even talking about company rules, privacy, keeping features secret so not to give false expectations... . We will never get accounts of everything happening or getting talked about in there. But there are dozens of design rules or reasons that come into play when deciding between almost equally good solutions in regards to the main goals or when the specific details of a solution (how many slots in a dew collector or the chance of filters in loot) are discussed. As a hypothetical example: I could imagine that "Another workstation would be beneficial" might have been a minor reason that had come into play when they decided between different solutions. Not as an original design goal, but someone might have just mentioned it in the meeting and most agreed and then the dew collector solution got another thumbs up. Nobody would have protested if the final solution would not have included another workstation, but it was part of the decision making and would speak slightly against solutions without new workstations.

No, why should it? Getting filters at the trader is dead easy for an experienced player already, and alternative ways could only make it easier. Naturally this ignores special playstyles, but my take on that is that they do not include them in their evaluations when they talk about new designs or have them as optional goals when everything else is equal. Filters in loot may have been put in for alternative trader-less playstyles and then balancing of it forgotten or just so it isn't really a trader-only item, who knows? Well, Rotor understood that it makes a difference. He said clearly that if it were a design goal then there is no chance in hell of it getting changed, otherwise there is a chance. And I don't see that the word "destroyed" has "deliberately" built in. You can destroy something through not supporting it. The difference is that it is much more difficult to change something that was done deliberately as a goal by TFP than something that happened because they just didn't factor it in. And it also is "morally" a different thing if something is done deliberately or accidentally. I think they are designing with the "average player" in mind and that player IS surely using the trader and doing quests. I just don't see a reason for them to deliberately remove playstyles, but I can easily see their mantra being "Alternative playstyles without traders or quests are possible with modding and options, we made modding easy, so we don't need to design with those alternative playstyles in mind.". You can regard the difference as just semantics, for me there is a difference there. Different attitude of TFP means different ways to talk with them to possibly get a change in you may want. For example I would give a much much higher chance for the suggestion to increase filters in loot to succeed than the suggestion to add "emtpy jars" into the game again. And it also influences whether I see them in a positive or negative light.

I don't think we know everything they wanted to achieve with the change. A possible reason for giving the filters to the trader would be that they could guarantee that a starting player has a sure-fire way to get a filter. But there could be other reasons we just aren't thinking of. I think it is unlikely that they deliberatly wanted to destroy a playstyle. There is a big difference in attitude between not understanding why someone wants to play a certain way to actively wanting to prevent people playing that way.

This would not have eliminated jars and eliminating jars was one of the objectives of the change.

No, just read the reply I did to pApA before your post. TFP probably were targeting something between triviality/time wasting micro management and deep mechanic. Something similar to food or leather. Something so that water has value for some time in the game, and sometimes has no value because you have too much of it. Something the average player would not **always** throw out as the first item when the inventory becomes full.

Judging only by complaints that some new players are fielding 7days seems to be not that easy. Just imagine you need a whole day for just finding your way around, going to the trader and doing one quest because zombies are often hitting you. And maybe you even die during the quest and get no reward from the trader out of it. And you have been running because you don't know yet that that burns food and water. Now with 100 dukes and some relatively useless stuff in your inventory you are hungry and thirsty and night is approaching. What will you do? Buy a drink for 150 dukes? Probably not. If you are lucky you will remember there is a journal with lots of information, for example where you can find food and water. If not there is a good chance you will not survive the night either. This is how a first-time player would play his first day. But even on the next play-through, if it ever comes to that, he won't be immediately expert and a lot of stuff you take for granted will not be known to him. Something similar actually happened to me in my last co-op game. I was too confident and on the way to meeting the other players went into an unknown POI on the way. There was a tower there and shortly before the end loot I got surprised by zombies and vultures attacking from all sides. I got killed. I then tried to make the best of it and get my stuff back. When I reached the trader it was already too late to quest and I ended the day without money, food or water, and a few crafting materials I had no use for yet. What I am saying is that if everything works according to plan 7 days is easy. But if you die or get some debuffs and/or an infection early on you can easily waste days with just keeping alive.

Please do not start threats in the "Mods" section unless you want to promote your own mod. And a question about a specific mod would have a better chance to get an answer in the thread of the mod itself.

Ok, accepted. So there are at least those three games that have water and the need to drink, maybe for realism sake or as a time waster to occupy the player, who knows. Which is exactly what I said, it is not a deep mechanic in 7 days and it seemed you were expecting one from the post I was answering to. I did not start mentioning "deep", YOU did !!!! And ALL I said was they they obviously didn't try to go deep with it. Sadly this often happens in longer discussions that it isn't clear who said or meant what. No problem, but please try to understand what I said: TFP obviously didn't look for a deep mechanic that would revolutionize our view of it. They just brought water alongside other mundane things like food, leather, mechanical parts. So that water is somewhat scarce (to novice players, or to players playing co-op). You are a veteran player, you won't feel any scarcity in SP and that is to be expected. When was the last time that you thought "I am out of leather and I don't know where to get it in time"? You don't like how it turned out for players like you with special playstyle. Yes, I do agree and this is not what I am talking about, not what I contest in any way. So please stop complaining to me about it, I am not saying anything to change that, I am the wrong target for that.

Get that too, posting is always a two-step process. Luckily the forum editor always had my reply stored, I just needed to klick into the editor window again and got everything back

I should have included "the whole game through/in all circumstances" in my question. Water in Conan Exiles still seems to be a resource with some value and in limited supply unless you do the dew collector equivalent of building a well. (I assume here that you have to migrate eventually to progress in that game). How difficult is it to build a well in other biomes? Do you need to search for places with water under it or do you just get 20 stones and drop a well anywhere? That sounds more like it would apply to my criteria, i.e. water as time wasting micro management for realisms sake. Can you take water with you in bottles or do you need to always go back? (In the latter case it would have a minimal function to draw you back to base) This sounds like water has or has not value depending on where you start. Not exactly a **deep** mechanic IMO. Just a trivial klick fest where you would do all the steps until you have the best water you can produce, just more micro-management, just like the wooden sticks and sharp stones for arrow production. To be deep and engaging there need to be choices somewhere.

Ok, there is a difference, but also some similarities: Not endless water without collectors, just more than in 7days, in 7days one loot run (if that is comparable) would also be enough to have enough water for a few days (if you count all the ways to get water including trader stock). In 7days the problem gets solved early, in PZ you can get away with water collection much longer, but whatever you do, unless you have collectors you will not simply throw away water. Water in loot has, at least for some time, a non-zero value in both games, right? Note: I am not contesting your claim that TFP made it more and more difficult to do any playstyle that involves no looting or no trader. I simply have no answer to that that would help you. My guess is that those alternative playstyles are just not on their list of things to "keep" without modding. Can you name them? You may be misremembering, you may be forgetting something about those games you think of or unlimited can mean different things to different people. Even in 7days water jars were not really unlimited in the mathematical sense as you needed resources for the glass. Or it may still be in development and the devs have not polished that part yet. I won't shut up with that claim unless I have a specific example 😉

All games I have never played. No wonder I had the impression water is largely ignored in survival games 😉 But again you seem to expect more than promised: Because water is a natural resource that is just used in its natural state and needs to be available from the start you can't easily make some **deep** mechanic with it. In a survival game most of the stuff you handle is either simply found or harvested or dug out or crafted from stuff you found and usually the more you look in the right places the more you find. That's it. And this same simple mechanic is now in 7 days. The real question is: Has any of those games water in almost unlimited quantities easily available or always in immediate reach, but you still need to drink it or you would die? Almost the same with 7days. Anyone who knows the game will not die of thirst and will have no problem getting plenty of drinks. And just like in Projekt Zomboid there is a process, in this case involving getting money and building dew collectors to eventually free yourself of the need to find water in loot. Not absolutely trivial like building and filling 500 jars with water, surely less complicated than building the stable water supply in PZ, but something you have to manage.