Lets help TFP improve PvP

[Poojam]

so the moral of the story is kiddos.....if your a low level player......avoid high level players until you get good gear.

 

again this really sounds like a fortnite complaint. everyone wants instant gratification. you don't just go after a well organized group in a zombie apocalypse and expect to survive.

 

Also, fortnite is a wildly successful PVP game. This thread was about discussing modifications to 7DTD in an effort to improve the PVP experience. What makes you think not mimicking TTK balance from a successful PVP game is good for PVP?

 

I actually take your comparison as an acknowledgement that this idea was probably a good one.

[Sy Tarn]

Also, fortnite is a wildly successful PVP game. This thread was about discussing modifications to 7DTD in an effort to improve the PVP experience. What makes you think not mimicking TTK balance from a successful PVP game is good for PVP?

 

I actually take your comparison as an acknowledgement that this idea was probably a good one.

 

mimicking a "successful" pvp game is exactly what MM is trying to avoid and keeps getting pushed away on the idea of helping PVP when people say these kinds of things.

 

there is no way to accommodate your wishful thinking of turning this game into fortnite. and i am done with this discussion. and the fact that you think i acknowledge your point is a testament to your ego which i have to point out is wrong.

[Blazer777]

poojam i do and dont agree with you on some points i can understand hearing a weapon from 2km away but not a forge and second if your outside the weapons max effective range you shouldnt be able to hear it or very little if any and second terrain around you should heavily affect any noise made by a gun

[Sinz]

In regards to hearing forges from far away and deep underground:

I disagree with this. But I think when TFP implement challenge to underground gameplay it will make finding underground bases easier.

And I liked what Poojam said here about proximity smell notifications for smoke from forges etc

*snip*

Create a parameter for each equipment entity to trigger a buff notification when it is running for smell. This notion already exists with light and heat, but I'm thinking specifically in terms of smell and significantly increased distances. This would help with the discovery of underground bases, and specifically when players tend to be online since the equipment would be running. Say, for example, when a campfire is running and someone gets within 100m of it you would notice the smell (just as you would in real life). Or the same could go for forges or chemistry stations but be increased in radii a bit.

 

I think it needs a balanced & special game mode with objectives, . Right now its a haphazard mess & whoever has more hours on a server is king. Games need to be short and balanced.

 

This game can't be re-balanced to be sort to suit PvP because that will have a negative effect on PvE. Never going to happen.

But I agree that it needs balance and objectives. I love games with objectives. I would love if the objectives encouraged PvP.

I suggested earlier in the thread: player set bounties at traders and trader set bounties based on reputation.

But I think more public objectives / events that encourage conflict would be great for PvP. And could also be competitive in PvE without any PKing.

 

One shot kills actually levels the playing field a great deal. You used to be able to one-shot an armored player with a well placed crossbow bolt to the dome - even with armor. This was accomplished by stalking them and catching them by surprise, if you could. I used to love being able to hop on a server and catch some well geared guy by surprise and getting a set of armor and high level weapon quickly.

 

As it stands now, you have almost no shot at killing a high level player that is wearing armor if you're low level. You can't find any good guns because your scavenging stinks, and if you attack just about anyone with a low level weapon - it doesn't do enough damage fast enough. The TTK (time to kill) is out of whack, because even a player with slow reaction speed can spin on you, change weapons, and hit you with a couple body shots from their ak and you lose.

 

I think this can be fixed with a re-balence of weapon damage vs players and damage multipliers based headshot vs bodyshot vs limbshot.

[Guppycur]

Well, there is one specific progression type that is not conducive to PvP. Yes, I'm talking about leveled loot BUT I SWEAR THIS ISN'T A RANT. It's just a fact.

 

My PvP server had it so that you could acquire random items and qualities by breaking loot chests I has scattered around, and it was a blast.

 

Don't like what you got? Well, the chest immediately respawned and you can try again... But they were out in the open and made a lot of noise...

[Poojam]

mimicking a "successful" pvp game is exactly what MM is trying to avoid and keeps getting pushed away on the idea of helping PVP when people say these kinds of things.

 

there is no way to accommodate your wishful thinking of turning this game into fortnite. and i am done with this discussion. and the fact that you think i acknowledge your point is a testament to your ego which i have to point out is wrong.

 

Madmole said that he wanted to improve the PVP experience, but just hasn't been a focus.

 

This thread is about developing suggestions to improve the PVP experience in an effort to help TFP follow through on that.

 

Dismissing my argument for reducing TTK because you are comparing my suggestion to how fortnite functions is not helpful or very valid, imo. Mimicking mechanics and aspects of other successful games is exactly how the majority of systems that are already in this game got originally implemented.

 

I didn't say we should turn the game into fortnite. You did.

 

I said to make adjustments to one aspect of weapon damage/resistances to improve PVP balance. The system as it would be implemented would more heavily reward skill over the current system that greatly skews combat based on player level and perks, which produces unhealthy PVP game balance and discourages new players from joining established PVP servers. Rebalancing perks, armor, weapons, player level, and perhaps compensating by adjusting zombie damage to nullify effects felt in PVE in order to reduce the magnitude of the effective force multiplier between player vs player combat is warranted to improve PVP.

 

It might be the case that zombie damage inflicted on players could be defined differently than player inflicted damage. If that is the case, then implementation of adjustments to improve PVP at no cost to the PVE experience would be simple.

[caatalyst]

This is already a thing in the game, and actually quite cheap. If you place wood frames or hay bales around all but one side of a piece of tnt, you can create shaped blasts that allow you to break open safes or vault doors much faster than an auger. I always bring a few pieces along with me when looting in case I see a gun safe. It shouldn't be that hard to mod the game so that explosions ignore LCBs.

 

But you cannot place TNT inside the influence of somebody elses territory block.

[SnowDog1942]

New game mode

 

2 teams of X number of people.

Some number Materials given to each player at the start

10 to 20 minutes of no pvp, each team builds a base and plants a flag.

Game starts, find their base and Capture the enemy flag X times to win.

 

THAT would be fun

[Dimpy]

But you cannot place TNT inside the influence of somebody elses territory block.

 

What I meant was:

"It should not be that hard to mod the game so that explosives ignore LCBs."

[Sy Tarn]

What I meant was:

"It should not be that hard to mod the game so that explosives ignore LCBs."

 

ya but can you imagine what that would do for griefers? besides. all that needs to be done is destroy the LCB's then place TNT to destroy the base. honestly i have done this but i can tell you one thing. its kinda ridiculous how much tnt i placed in one guys base and how much i leveled the place. to me it would seem OP to be able to just place TNT in someones LC area. pipe bombs do enough damage to throw at a door to break it down. and not only that if that was wanted it can be indeed modded in.

[Dimpy]

That sounds about right.

[Sinz]

What I meant was:

"It should not be that hard to mod the game so that explosives ignore LCBs."

 

Yeah if remote detonators were tied to "thrown" explosives then it would be possible.

Thrown items are entities and land claim doesn't protect against that.

I think they would be a great addition (as I said before)

 

ya but can you imagine what that would do for griefers? besides. all that needs to be done is destroy the LCB's then place TNT to destroy the base. honestly i have done this but i can tell you one thing. its kinda ridiculous how much tnt i placed in one guys base and how much i leveled the place. to me it would seem OP to be able to just place TNT in someones LC area. pipe bombs do enough damage to throw at a door to break it down. and not only that if that was wanted it can be indeed modded in.

 

I hate griefers too.

But your argument is irrelevant because it's subject to the land claim protection multiplier, a variable setting, and you haven't stated it. It sounds like it's set to a very low value in your example.

Perhaps you should try suggest things to counter greifing that don't hinder raiding instead?

 

Here's an idea:

In regards to pro raiding but anti greifing:

Add an extra option to land claim settings for a separate multiplier for doors, containers, traps and any other necessary block types.

This way the multipliers can be offset from each other so that bases can still be breached and raided but completely destroying them is a lot more difficult.

[Sy Tarn]

Yeah if remote detonators were tied to "thrown" explosives then it would be possible.

Thrown items are entities and land claim doesn't protect against that.

I think they would be a great addition (as I said before)

 

 

 

I hate griefers too.

But your argument is irrelevant because it's subject to the land claim protection multiplier, a variable setting, and you haven't stated it. It sounds like it's set to a very low value in your example.

Perhaps you should try suggest things to counter greifing that don't hinder raiding instead?

 

Here's an idea:

In regards to pro raiding but anti greifing:

Add an extra option to land claim settings for a separate multiplier for doors, containers, traps and any other necessary block types.

This way the multipliers can be offset from each other so that bases can still be breached and raided but completely destroying them is a lot more difficult.

 

well actually in my argument the LCB was gone when i layed down my TNT. which is my point i put in the work to get rid of the LCB to lay

TNT which to me is a perfect mechanic..

 

i'm saying laying down TNT in a claimed area shouldn't be a thing at all. and if you COULd put Tnt in a claim zone it doesn't matter what the multiplier is because depending on what its set at its either going to do too much damage x2 LCB or not enough x64 LCB protection.

 

what i would do is add an item....

 

throwable TNT that doesn't do as much damage as the placable tnt but does enough to make a little dent

and then buff pipe bombs and make them a little more expensive to make a more powerful throwable item but obv not as powerful as place-able TNT

[Sinz]

what i would do is add an item....

 

throwable TNT that doesn't do as much damage as the placable tnt but does enough to make a little dent

and then buff pipe bombs and make them a little more expensive to make a more powerful throwable item but obv not as powerful as place-able TNT

 

It's already in A16. It's item name is dynamite.

[Sy Tarn]

It's already in A16. It's item name is dynamite.

 

well in my defense i never played a16 long enough to know that

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

or i forgot. idk anymore

[Sinz]

Check out this summary of why PvP in 7DTD is different

 

Well the PvP base is definitely a minority but the amount who play it is much higher than that. No matter the play-style you have to contend with zombies but the reason for PvP is not because we seek a run-n-gun Halo/CoD/Quake/CS whatever style; it is because after a point the zombies and environment pose no challenge.

 

This is not a fault I find with the game; every game I have played the AI/Comp opponent...if you will... becomes predictable as there is/are always pattern(s).

 

When I PvP it is because I seek a challenge against a thinking opponent; someone who can adapt and challenge me in ways the AI cannot...that's it! In Multiplayer I see interaction with more than one player; this is why you see co-op as an option in many games alongside multiplayer.

 

The best thing any game can do is to set the world out and let the experience be as organic as possible. A multiplayer world is set and players can co-op or not, PvP or not. Looking at the PvP aspect does not hurt the game; rather, it adds to everyone's experience. They don't HAVE to PvP...the server rules and bot managers can dictate. But the possibility can only enhance their experience and for those who wish to PvP primarily they will still have to contend with zombies...don't worry about that.

 

But there is nothing wrong with trying to make this a more feasible aspect of gameplay because it is merely an aspect; it does not change the game fundamentally.

 

Stage 1 - spawn in do the tasks find the trader survive versus the environment

Stage 2 contend with environment as well as zombies now

Stage 3 all of the above and begin preparations for zombie attacks with your base as you acquire resources.

 

It's always the same. And people can log out for horde night....you can't "force" anyone to do anything despite your vision. Just create the environment and let the experience be organic.

 

And as far as destroying people in any game I noticed you listed FPS games. I attended the PGL where Thresh was the guest for the Quake 2 winner to compete in Pong with as I was there for the RTS Total annihilation. If you want to bring up Red alert or Total annihilation I'll most likely do the destroying as I was the #1 ranked player in the world for a yr and a half in TA. Top Ten Red alert and our team held the #1 ranking briefly..heh.

 

You think of PvP in terms on Quake or Counterstrike...FPS games. And while the game is most certainly FPS it plays more like a RTS. YOu acquire resources over a time period and then endure an assault or you engage in one. We don't have loadouts and the maps are huge.

 

We seek resource deposits to acquire resources to build bases and then upgrade our defenses and eventually prepare for the offensive if we choose. This is what is done in RTS games...and styles differ.

 

In 7DTD I PvP because I want a thinking opponent. I start like anyone else; I acquire resources and build myself up to survive the environment and set a place to store my resources. This storage needs defending; however, I do not seek to defend myself from zombies...turning off forges, tunneling at bedrock, and movement are how I defend. If you pardon the pun my playstyle renders the zombies "non-entities" unless I wish to raise my rifle skill and get kills/exp/loot. The more kills leads to higher gamestages and better loot.

 

But the acquisition is all in preparation for engaging my opponent and if you think bout turn-based strategy...that is this game too. We can all play at the same time as a RTS... but as we have different real-life schedules it becomes turn-based. People will raid your base or set the stage when you are offline; I know players wait until I log before venturing into certain cities/areas.

 

Mines are not for Zombies... there are more efficient ways to kill them.

 

PVP in this game is rarely a run and gun encounter. Usually it is turn-based as your PvP becomes you versus their base or it is a sniper battle.

 

Quit pigeonholing PvP into a Counter Strike corner as it is not that.

 

But I'm up for a challenge on my server or the RTS world.

 

http://igl.net/total/ Hallf of fame

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25011[/ATTACH]

 

Here is a RL Video of horde night coming to my house.

 

[Sinz]

Actually while reading that comment I thought of another idea.

 

I think an issue with PvP in the current version of the game is high level players shutting down low level players and preventing them from getting to a stage where they can be significant competition. Multiple high levels completely destroy the base of a low levels and kills them over and over and over. I've seen it happen and I think it's bad for PvP. Things like this are why there are less PvP players.

There is also the fact that aged PvP servers get less traffic because of the level gap, less new players want to join. Most aged PvP servers get wiped often because of this.

 

The idea:

A configurable exemption for low level PvP

 

I imagine the setting as so:

You select the level in which the exemption applies up to

Players within the exemption range are immune to player damage from players above the exemption range

Players withing the exemption range can't deal player damage to players above the exemption range

Separate claim multipliers for the low level exemption range

[skullpoker]

Actually while reading that comment I thought of another idea.

 

I think an issue with PvP in the current version of the game is high level players shutting down low level players and preventing them from getting to a stage where they can be significant competition. Multiple high levels completely destroy the base of a low levels and kills them over and over and over. I've seen it happen and I think it's bad for PvP. Things like this are why there are less PvP players.

There is also the fact that aged PvP servers get less traffic because of the level gap, less new players want to join. Most aged PvP servers get wiped often because of this.

 

The idea:

A configurable exemption for low level PvP

 

I imagine the setting as so:

You select the level in which the exemption applies up to

Players within the exemption range are immune to player damage from players above the exemption range

Players withing the exemption range can't deal player damage to players above the exemption range

Separate claim multipliers for the low level exemption range

 

Another way to work your idea might be that you can only damage players within X amount of Levels or Score. Score would be a good one because if you kill the same person a couple times your score difference gets larger and then you can't grief them.

[Sy Tarn]

these are all great ideas guys. but like i said before not needed, i only say this because if you do nothing but protect newbies to x level the higher level players won't ever have anyone to fight. and get bored then you punish the high level players for just that being high level.

 

and what about the other way around? whats to keep the low level players from doing any damage? do we honestly think that a lvl 100 player would be completely invulnerable to a newbies attacks? No. balancing the scales is hard to do but these suggestions so far is tipping them completely to one side...

 

i have joined established servers, with lvl 100 people, took my time stayed hidden looted during certain times of the day etc. and in a week i had established myself by week 4 i dominated....

 

moral of the story is ~git gud~ because if you can't do all of that and you need to rely on benevolent powers to keep you safe you shouldn't be playing pvp in the first place.

[Sy Tarn]

is the thread dead already?

[Blazer777]

the point sinz is making sy tarn is high lvl players camp all the good locations and traders which is like shooting fish in a barrel and sinz god damn it change your profile pic its distracting me from thinking clearly

[Sy Tarn]

the point sinz is making sy tarn is high lvl players camp all the good locations and traders which is like shooting fish in a barrel and sinz god damn it change your profile pic its distracting me from thinking clearly

 

which is up to the server owners to have some way to protect spawns and delegate protection for new players. i just can't see a way to make any of this work without taking away from the spirit of the game. its an apocalypse which is not supposed to be easy nor forgiving.

[Sinz]

these are all great ideas guys. but like i said before not needed, i only say this because if you do nothing but protect newbies to x level the higher level players won't ever have anyone to fight. and get bored then you punish the high level players for just that being high level.

 

and what about the other way around? whats to keep the low level players from doing any damage? do we honestly think that a lvl 100 player would be completely invulnerable to a newbies attacks? No. balancing the scales is hard to do but these suggestions so far is tipping them completely to one side...

 

i have joined established servers, with lvl 100 people, took my time stayed hidden looted during certain times of the day etc. and in a week i had established myself by week 4 i dominated....

 

moral of the story is ~git gud~ because if you can't do all of that and you need to rely on benevolent powers to keep you safe you shouldn't be playing pvp in the first place.

 

That's you opinion. It doesn't mean the ideas are "not needed".

I even said in my comment that my idea would be a configurable setting, so you could disable it and play how you want to play.

What about all the players outside the exemption range? Are you saying you only PvP beginners?

You should re-read my OP. I actually said that the exemption would prevent receiving damage and dealing damage.

 

I never said my idea is needed to play PvP. I just shared it as brain food.

I would really appreciate some constructive criticism rather than invalid arguments.

 

There is no need to put PvP into a box or push others to play the game in only one way, more options = more happy gamers.

PvP isn't about kill camping low levels or destroying low level bases, there is no competition in that and competition is what PvP is about.

PvP is gives players that extra level of difficulty and challenge when the PvE gets easy, boring and predictable.

 

is the thread dead already?

 

Maybe it's because there are lots of comments shutting down other comments without reason, the forums isn't a place for PvP.

[Sinz]

the point sinz is making sy tarn is high lvl players camp all the good locations and traders which is like shooting fish in a barrel and sinz god damn it change your profile pic its distracting me from thinking clearly

 

Quite a few people are sporting underwear profile pictures to support an idea that adds extra clothing slots for under wear and and under wear to dressers so we can go on panty raids.

Nudity optional.

Cosmetic only.

This was actually originally suggesting by a woman.

She even said she'd send her own sexy underwear to the Joelercoaster if it got the feature added.

[bloom_meister]

Summarising feedback thus far

 

1. Sound distance needs fixing to give more realistic values, particularly for weapons and power tools

2. Further work required on see through the ground glitch (didnt know you could still do this one but apparently you can)

3. Add/expand map size settings to allow for both smaller and bigger maps than default

4. Rebalance player v player weapon damage downwards to allow less 1 shot kills

5. Look into more functionality and types of claim blocks

6. Look into faction and reputation hits for player killing including with traders

7. Fix mining helmet bug (its been around years guys, cant be THAT hard)

8. Explore giving XP for killing players and losing XP for dying (gotta work both ways right?)

9. Increase rarity of end game weapons and/or weapons in general (dont sell at traders?)

10. Add in some pvp specific perks

11. Take a look at more view distance settings

12. Look at making some settings not list your server as modified

13. Add in smoke from campfire and forges as a visible indicator that can be seen from a distance

14. Add in a socket system (apologies if i use the wrong terminology) to allow server plugins to give advanced capabilities to server admins)

15. Look at using dynamic parameters to determine zombie strength and loot (eg. distance from centre)

16. Remove level locks/gates from perks to allow more flexibility in character build. I realise this goes against the recently stated aim of specialising but its particulary important for pvp

17. Add in some form of very expensive but also very effective explosive charges for raiding

18. Look at adding the 'dead is dead' gameplay type which would wipe your char profile on death

19. Look into increased XP settings for a server so that new players could catch up faster

20. Remove level loot code from pvp to allow newer players to get better items more quickly

21. Add a filter to the server browser to show 'Age of Server' to better enable players to find newer servers' PvP players almost always prefer a new server as there is less catch up required. This should be super easy as day count is already a thing