Jackelmyer Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Uuuummmmm, Wrong. My son (yeah, I know, him again lol) was playing and left his forge on. In the desert close to the trader. He went to the city to loot the skyscraper and when he returned the screamer was inside trashing the place and a few zombies were wandering around outside. He had been gone all day and it was dark when he got back. Leave a forge on and they will come. Even if you aren't home they will still come. Determined little zombies to have your brains for a meal. When your son came back from the city, the chunk reloaded and the zombie spawned as he was running up. Zombies are explicitly supposed to despawn, go away, when you leave an area so there aren't thousands of zombies running around after your mini bike ride and dragging down your performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Why not just use the current sleeper system, sprinkle sleeper blocks in the ground that have built in 3 block radius sleeper volumes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doombringer101 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 So basically you say a world can never be inconsistent? Inconsistency doesn't exist? Not at all, these inconsistencies exist for a number of reason, game play, balance, system requirements etc. The inventory system currently is a good example, I can carry insane amounts of blocks in one slot while another only holds a single item like a handgun. Inconsistent purely for game play purposes. I was more referring to the way the world works, what the zombies/infected actually are, what abilities they possess etc. All defined by the Pimp's to be whatever they like and thus perfectly consistent with the IP, 'it is this way because we say it is' - - - Updated - - - Uuuummmmm, Wrong. My son (yeah, I know, him again lol) was playing and left his forge on. In the desert close to the trader. He went to the city to loot the skyscraper and when he returned the screamer was inside trashing the place and a few zombies were wandering around outside. He had been gone all day and it was dark when he got back. Leave a forge on and they will come. Even if you aren't home they will still come. Determined little zombies to have your brains for a meal. Not wrong - - - Updated - - - When your son came back from the city, the chunk reloaded and the zombie spawned as he was running up. Zombies are explicitly supposed to despawn, go away, when you leave an area so there aren't thousands of zombies running around after your mini bike ride and dragging down your performance. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 ... and therefore define the immersion/reality of their 'world'.... Immersion is about perception of the players. Sorry there is no way to define or dictate perception/immersion. TFP can choose how much they care about immersion, but thats all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 You underestimate Kinyajuu and Prime and you are using present day AI to make your argument about future developments. If they can't solve AI and pathing issues then I agree that it would be unfeasible to have zombies moving around in complex tunnels. But with breadcrumbs and improvements it could be done and done well. I agree that if they are the same zombies that are topside it would feel ridiculous but if they are decayed and almost skeletal versions then fine. If that is still the line you've drawn in ridiculous concepts in this game then what about them spawning closer to the surface and then getting into the caverns and rushing downward to where you are. Then no surface destruction, you get to defend your base, and nothing is popping out of solid stone. I simply pay attention to AI in more than 7D2D and those who've done it pretty well still struggle. So expecting that they'll get AI to some magical point to solve some of these issues? I don't think that's a fair expectation to push around. I wouldn't expect AI to magically become the answer to all of this. Wait for Quantum Computing. Yah. Completely bass ackwards Jack. Even if you make caverns be POI's using POI placement rules and only put two per biome, sure you won't have any problems with surface prefabs but players won't know whether they are building over a cavern or not and putting a surface indication of an underground cavern is lame, excuse my mobility disadvantaged metaphor. You even admitted that it will mess with player builds and yet Kinyajuu's proposal widens parts of a tunnel you dug by one or two blocks. Your tunnel plus two whole caverns that always exist whether you dig or not or your tunnel with some nodes of air pockets attached but only if you dig in the first place. Which has the larger SI destabilizing footprint? It's not even close, Jack. YOU'RE ACKWARDS IS BASS! lol. Agreed that players can run into problems. You're skimming self is missing points. I never said the couple blocks of widening tunnels was the issue. I said zombies wandering off digging huge paths is a problem. Oh dang. You win. Great tactic. How did you do it? How can I ever continue the discussion? It's a magical personality I've been told. Lots of gritting teeth in those statements... weird. huh. :-p Glad you concede that the small pockets adjacent to existing tunnels aren't a problem. That is exactly what I was saying. As I said earlier it is pointless to apply current AI to the future. We know that the AI will be different than it is now and they are specifically working on improving pathing. Also-- Wandering Hordes? Who ever said that? You can't add something never suggested or hinted at by the developer to make your case either. Kinyajuu specifically said that it would be individual zombies while you were actively digging or Bloodmoon Horde night zombies. Period. Nobody said wandering hordes would stream into your tunnels from a pocket of air adjacent to it. I still think you simply give AI too much credit. What do you think this is... 2018 with flying cars, and driverless cars, and jet packs and stuff? Wait... REGARDLESS! Nah, I just don't see AI evolving to that degree is all I'm saying. And actually that's a great point. ALL of this underground stuff should be shelved. Just shelve it. Improve AI. See what you CAN do with AI so we don't have Dev's spinning wheels trying to do stuff underground that either AI will solve or stuff underground that AI will just make worse. So excellent wrap up Roland! THANKS! Underground Challenges: Shelved. AI: Up to bat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 Jackalmyer made a good point regarding the 40 blocks thing. That would actually make no sense at all thinking of it now. People wouldnt be burried so far down, the term 6 feet under didn't come from nowhere. Noone on the planet would be digging down 40 meters to burry one corpse in a field (maybe unless they were a very practical serial killer) and whereby I can fully envisage Rolands ground bursting fantasy (and it is kind of nice) people would be coming out of cemetary ground, not an uninhabited island in the middle of a lake. Remember this game seems to be set in the western world, and in the west we bury people in cemeteries and not beneath massive rock layers in the earth. This sort of comes back to the other poster that was ok for shallow ground spawns, which I absolutely agree with. Just like the cemetary level zombies. I remember when I came across zombies in graves in 7D, I broke into the little churchyard and came across a fat woman piled up on a coffin. I must say, I thought I was in need of a new pair of underwear after that experience... We weren't the first to inhabit this land and bury our dead. So 6 ft is not necessarily a hard limit. But forget that. Kinyajuu's idea could work if you only take the dirt layer into consideration. The zombies break in near the entrance/exit of your tunnel but still deep enough to be inside and then work their way down through the tunnel to assault your bunker. I think that is less cool than seeing them breaking through the walls around you but for the sake your immersion I'd be willing to give up that dream and go with something less cool but that still results in me defending my bunker from zombies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 @Kinyajuu and Prime´s WIP I think this Underground Spawn by Digging can work in the first 15 Blocks Deep in Sand/Soil. So make the Soil layer larger (7->15 Blocks deep) and it is fine. Zombies spawning from massive Rock.... breaks my immersion btw this way we could make Rock really sturdy (4000 hp) but with the same amount of Ressources per hit So bedrock dwelling is fairly hard to earn and more People would just go only into the soil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Why not just use the current sleeper system, sprinkle sleeper blocks in the ground that have built in 3 block radius sleeper volumes? Oh ho! Mr. Prefab and his neato volumes trying to save the day. I hope you wiped after posting this. :-p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doombringer101 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Immersion is about perception of the players. Sorry there is no way to define or dictate perception/immersion. TFP can choose how much they care about immersion, but thats all. Players perception is dictated by the rules of the world or story etc. Just because I hate the idea of sparkly vampires does not mean they are not perfectly immersive within the bounds of the authors world. I still hate them tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pille Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Not at all, these inconsistencies exist for a number of reason, game play, balance, system requirements etc. The inventory system currently is a good example, I can carry insane amounts of blocks in one slot while another only holds a single item like a handgun. Inconsistent purely for game play purposes. I think it's not really an inconsistency since it relies on simple rules which apply for all items and blocks (just my opinion) but okay I get what you mean. I don't this philosophy though: I was more referring to the way the world works, what the zombies/infected actually are, what abilities they possess etc. All defined by the Pimp's to be whatever they like and thus perfectly consistent with the IP, 'it is this way because we say it is' Makes any discussion pointless imo cos TFP are always right. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Players perception is dictated by the rules of the world or story etc. Just because I hate the idea of sparkly vampires does not mean they are not perfectly immersive within the bounds of the authors world. I still hate them tho That is not at all how Perception is dictated. What dictates perception is a hugely complex thing and developers who think they can dictate perception outside of human norm usually have their crap go down in flames. Either that or they've created something so far outside the real of what is perceived as a norm becomes a new norm within common perceptions. Dictate... pft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janna3921 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Underground hazards like gas build up etc. are fine so long as their is an ongoing cost to maintaining them, not just 'build an air filtration system and your done' and I mean besides using fuel to keep motors running and the like. Things like replacement filters, durability on components so things break down and need new parts thus requiring looting trips to obtain more etc. The challenge needs to be vaguely comparable to those faced by an above ground base. I love building underground but that's a recipe for boredom currently, make it challenging, the current system allows me to make an underground base that is fully self sufficient (food, water, gas etc.) in complete safety with the odd bit of daytime looting. Include a toggle off option in the same way as weather survival for those that don't want the added challenge. That's how I see it, as you breathe out you build up toxic air and you have to have a ventilation system (which requires specific equipment) that requires electricity (generator, gas, wiring) to pump out the bad and bring in the good, filters (metal, ores to make them, cotton to be part of the filter, plastic for the frame) to help keep it clean. Being safe should have some cost to it, not a get out of jail free card. But that option should be there for those who want to live underground and like to come out to loot, hunt and even fight zombies at various times of their choosing. We all get up in arms about the zombies respawning in a POI that is taken over as a base or as we loot it, yet it seems it is okay to state that zombies should spawn in a underground base to force the players to be above ground. Tit for tat, if you don't like zombies spawning in your POI base, don't go stating that zombies should spawn in a underground base to force the player to be on the surface. It keeps coming back to others wanting to tell someone else how they should play the game. If the developers plan for it that is different, but for Bossy with the my way or the highway attitude, I go take a long walk off a short pier, preferable into shark infested water loaded with chum. Make it a option, toggle to have it on or off; set for extremely high game level so the causal player, the ones who have a life outside of 7 days, can still play the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doombringer101 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 I think it's not really an inconsistency since it relies on simple rules which apply for all items and blocks (just my opinion) but okay I get what you mean. I don't this philosophy though: Makes any discussion pointless imo cos TFP are always right. :-D That's a given you can express your dislike tho and they may change what is 'right' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 So excellent wrap up Roland! THANKS! Underground Challenges: Shelved. AI: Up to bat! Sometimes problematic ideas drive innovation.... Underground Challenges: Taken on. AI: Improves because of it. (even if they ultimately scrap underground challenges) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tin Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 I don't follow you. CampFire/Forge AOE mechanic - Don't think we can use this for Radiation. We could then end up with a radiation effect from every block near you which would be a huge performance hit I'd guess if done as Campfire/Forge effect. Though if you reversed it, and had the effect kind of work backwards originating at the player to determine if an effect would be triggered, maybe? Not sure how block distribution works in this. Layer Depth Placements is a part of the world generation process, a hugely non-performant task. Which is why it's in world gen processes. On impact properties. What if I just don't move. I don't get a radiation effect? Buffs? I think the best tie in here is the walk across effect you can apply to asphalt and such. From an activation perspective. Explosions? If we're talking about something like shale exploding, that'd be simpler, like tweaking the drop/turns into functionality I'd imagine or block damage received process. Sorry, I think you're commenting on a lot of points in several smaller bullet points. <3 I'm lost homie. They can make a buff the reacts just like radiation. Buffs are easy to make and use. The AOE mechanic of the campfire/forge already uses and applies a type buff's. <property name="ActiveRadiusEffects" value="+heatSource(3)"/> We (as a modder) don't get to play with the AOE mechanic but none the less the heatSource(3) is a type of buff. Blocks can already have a property that acts when you hit it (ie using a pick on a gas barrel). Which is what you would need since the player is generally digging out all around them and would be more effective then the "walksOnBuff" Specific Blocks can already be placed in just about any layer you want or can be distributed like ore. To be distributed evenly starting at whatever level/layer you want. If the block is inert (not triggered) its just another block. Little to know cost. Don't really a chain of blocks to activate to apply a AOE buff to the player. You just need that specific block to apply the area of effect once activated. which the area of effect could be set at 60 or higher and then deplete on a timer. A one fire activation to apply a buff on the player in the area. Which makes the player take either move away from area to debuff or apply an item to debuff (gas mask of something). If you are digging and destroying blocks to dig out your lair you would "crack open a gas pocket" at some point. I disagreed with your premise on how to get underground radiation or whatever gas to work. I could be wrong but I don't think it needs to be overly complicated like you're describing. Nor does the voxel map need to be fixed for that reason maybe for other reasons but not the one your describing. Edit: oh yeah. Quest notes when digging for treasure is something as well. I just think Kinyajuu's and Primes idea can be applied in many ways besides the zed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieToad Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 We weren't the first to inhabit this land and bury our dead. So 6 ft is not necessarily a hard limit. But forget that. Kinyajuu's idea could work if you only take the dirt layer into consideration. The zombies break in near the entrance/exit of your tunnel but still deep enough to be inside and then work their way down through the tunnel to assault your bunker. I think that is less cool than seeing them breaking through the walls around you but for the sake your immersion I'd be willing to give up that dream and go with something less cool but that still results in me defending my bunker from zombies. Good point, and it will work out well so long as underground zombies dont start spawning wearing pairs of Levi jeans and carrying any sort of modern loot whatsoever. Also they are going to need to be skinned completely differently (your idea of the decayed, skeletal would be so much fun) and depending on how deep you are, we have the issue of rock. They should NOT be spawning in the rock layer. And speaking of the rock layer... All you have to do is dig down to the deep rock levels and then zombies should not be spawning there. But like Kinya said they sould be able to dig up and out, right? Or tunnel laterally, if thats the case then all you would need is a one block shaft straight down to bedrock or dig out a huge area and concrete it 30 x 30 from rock level to surface. It would take some time but since zombies arent (I assume) going to be direct down diggers this would keep you safe. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doombringer101 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 That is not at all how Perception is dictated. What dictates perception is a hugely complex thing and developers who think they can dictate perception outside of human norm usually have their crap go down in flames. Either that or they've created something so far outside the real of what is perceived as a norm becomes a new norm within common perceptions. Dictate... pft. I think you took it to the extreme with 'outside of human norm', you either buy into the IP and accept the zombies/sparkly vampires etc. or you don't. If the Pimp's decided it was all necromancy and added ghosts, vampires and all sorts of other undead nasties then these would 'make sense' within the altered IP. Player perception on what was immersive would change, they may not like it but that is a separate issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Sometimes problematic ideas drive innovation.... Underground Challenges: Taken on. AI: Improves because of it. (even if they ultimately scrap underground challenges) I dunno. All joking aside I think you really did make a good point to not assume what AI will look like down the road. Continuing to build in underground features that are so dependant on something like AI is just asking to waste valuable dev time with rework. Stuff like Time suggested, making mining itself more hazardous, that sounds like a great near future direction and one a little less likely to require rework because of up and coming potential fundamental game changes. So there. That's my final 2 cents in underground. Shelve anything AI related until AI gets some serious and lasting love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt 1977 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Keep up the great work TFPs . Cant wait for A17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 What about a granite layer that is two blocks thick between dirt and stone and SI is only calculated to Granite instead of all the way to bedrock? Then you could have as many caves and caverns below granite and it wouldn't mess with any surface structures? You could also use it as a gate for deep mining if granite could only be destroyed with a steel pickaxe? Then the only SI issues would be any tunnels dug above granite and those spots where a player punched through it to go deeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 What about a granite layer that is two blocks thick between dirt and stone and SI is only calculated to Granite instead of all the way to bedrock? Then you could have as many caves and caverns below granite and it wouldn't mess with any surface structures? You could also use it as a gate for deep mining if granite could only be destroyed with a steel pickaxe? Then the only SI issues would be any tunnels dug above granite and those spots where a player punched through it to go deeper. I dunno. On one hand, make granite non placeable and immune from zombies maybe? But still seems problematic. Had similar ideas on SI changes but they all scream exploit. Hm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 .... Player perception on what was immersive would change, they may not like it but that is a separate issue. I think there are many Players that would stop playing if Dinosaurs, Demons, and small green aliens would suddenly fly through the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tin Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 What about a granite layer that is two blocks thick between dirt and stone and SI is only calculated to Granite instead of all the way to bedrock? Then you could have as many caves and caverns below granite and it wouldn't mess with any surface structures? You could also use it as a gate for deep mining if granite could only be destroyed with a steel pickaxe? Then the only SI issues would be any tunnels dug above granite and those spots where a player punched through it to go deeper. Now you need to summon Gazz hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doombringer101 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 What about a granite layer that is two blocks thick between dirt and stone and SI is only calculated to Granite instead of all the way to bedrock? Then you could have as many caves and caverns below granite and it wouldn't mess with any surface structures? You could also use it as a gate for deep mining if granite could only be destroyed with a steel pickaxe? Then the only SI issues would be any tunnels dug above granite and those spots where a player punched through it to go deeper. This works, plus our resident geologist gets his granite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 What about a granite layer that is two blocks thick between dirt and stone and SI is only calculated to Granite instead of all the way to bedrock? Then you could have as many caves and caverns below granite and it wouldn't mess with any surface structures? You could also use it as a gate for deep mining if granite could only be destroyed with a steel pickaxe? Then the only SI issues would be any tunnels dug above granite and those spots where a player punched through it to go deeper. +1 This would be a good Idea, as long as Granite is so strong that Trolls cant easy destroy that layer to colapse a Base Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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