Gazz Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Tougher is fine. Being an unknowing victim to a system design is generally a rather frustrating situation. Not knowing Zombies are destroying the ground under your base has no means for defense. It's like if they implemented a random lightning strike that insta kills you. Except it can insta kill your base in effect. Well, yeah, this may be as game-destroying as not knowing that some zombies can climb or explode for mucho damage because the game does not literally tell you so. IMO, the not knowing problem can be fixed by observing zombies and learning. (We may have to add a "Leaning" skill, though.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazz Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Come rip it to shreds Gazz... Hehe Just trying to work out what it would do or not do and how to break it. In the past TFP had a few designs that seemed shot from the hip but that's over now so there is much less fixing the fixes to the fix only to can the entire system later. The SI calculations are complex and lenghty descriptions take a while to analyse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crater Creator Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 If there is no way of counter acting a threat the game would be completely dull and a killer. I didn't say no way of counteracting a threat, I said no way of counteracting all threats. As for lightning strikes stay inside lol. If it goes thru the prefab the game is flawed. You're missing the point. The developers could hard code the game to just straight up kill your character 5 seconds after s/he spawns. The players could not come up with a defense against that. So saying players will always come up with a counter is wrong. Lol don't go comparing magical appearing zs to backpack lol. Now for example make a mod where you can not carry anything but "realistic objects" maybe 1 block at a time (in a game that has building in it) see how many ppl play it. Now compare that to how many ppl play with how it is currently. You're changing the subject. Something can be "magical" or not whether or not a lot of people play it. Now make a game that has magical appearing zs with no possible way of it being there other then magical appearance to a game that shows the path a z takes etc and you see it get to where it gets to and now compare which game has the more players... Games use smoke and mirrors, so to speak, all the time. For example, whole chunks of the world pop into and out of existence all the time! If that's not magic, I don't know what is. Thankfully, this magic is carefully controlled to happen in places where, to the extent possible, you don't notice it. That would be the case here, too. So while digger zombies not spawning until they're close enough for it to be necessary also sounds like magic, the principles are the same as in all the other smoke and mirrors going on. Of it skipped the boring bits how did the hole it dug disappear. Can I borrow it I need some stuff dug up...... Good grief. Have you ever dug a hole? Did you happen to notice the growing pile of dirt you had to put somewhere? Did you happen to notice you can't destroy matter? That would be magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 You're missing the point. The developers could hard code the game to just straight up kill your character 5 seconds after s/he spawns. The players could not come up with a defense against that. So saying players will always come up with a counter is wrong. The counter for that would be a death game 3 Milliseconds after release Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazz Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 As some have already pointed out, a foundation block that intentionally breaks the SI calculations would allow this. Every slab of foundation blocks is perfectly supported from the side. This "bridge" can be extended infinitely so you would have the supports for your floating base beyond the range at which zombies spawn. You're missing the point. The developers could hard code the game to just straight up kill your character 5 seconds after s/he spawns. The players could not come up with a defense against that. So saying players will always come up with a counter is wrong. And what evidence makes you believe that the developers are planning to kill the character 5 seconds after spawning? I mean you can mod this but why do you want to? What are you trying to achieve by this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pille Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 The ray continues through air blocks, because air blocks are not player-placed blocks. I had to think about why this was important for a bit. I imagine what you're getting at is that you could have a big pit outside your base that the digger zombies get across when they shouldn't. However, they still stop when they hit the first player-placed block, and that means they either spawn inside terrain, or in air. If in terrain, they stand on some kind of terrain block and start attacking your wall, as if they spawned on the near side of the pit. If in air, they fall to the ground like Wile E. Coyote, because that's where they'd end up if they spawned far away and went through the motions of approaching you. Remember, the late spawning isn't to change their behavior for better or worse; it's to improve performance. Sorry I don't understand the last paragraph or how they get across the pit. Maybe I need coffee.^^ Remember, the late spawning isn't to change their behavior for better or worse; it's to improve performance. That's just your goal. My goal: I don't want more mechanics that produce teleporting zombies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crater Creator Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 The question is still, how defend enemys that attack your base in deep rock from outside (through stone). DO the player really need to wait until they broke 1-4 Layers of steel, feel anoyed because of this for a longer time and cant leave his base because it sounds like they will break the Forge room and/or Store room ? Establishing sight lines to kill attackers is a major part of above ground base building. It's prompted me to experiment with incorporating medieval-style fortification features, like crenellations, bastions, and arrow slits, into my base designs, and that's been a big part of the game's fun. I think figuring out effective techniques to address the sightline challenge for underground base designs would also be a lot of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I don't want more mechanics that produce teleporting zombies... I really hope this was never seen as a minor Problem. Defense means you clean a area behind you that is Closed by whatever reason (walls) and fight the enemys in your front Enemys Teleporting, ghosting in your neck will breack every games neck sooner or later. Then better let the zombies gliding out of soil in your front. And spawn zombies inside houses BEFORE the player is at the door Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pille Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 The counter for that would be a death game 3 Milliseconds after release I would stay in the respawn menu, so I could play as long as I want without dying twice. Edit: Then I would go to the forum and complain that the game is too easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazz Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 i would stay in the respawn menu, so i could play as long as i want without dying twice. omg hax! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Establishing sight lines to kill attackers is a major part of above ground base building. It's prompted me to experiment with incorporating medieval-style fortification features, like crenellations, bastions, and arrow slits, into my base designs, and that's been a big part of the game's fun. I think figuring out effective techniques to address the sightline challenge for underground base designs would also be a lot of fun. I simply cant imagine that, a bunker normally has Wall|Rock without space between. There cant be a line of sight/way to defend. Except the players need to build like on my Pictures above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crater Creator Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 ...We probably shouldn't guess at what AI will be like. Fair enough. Not always an opening. Some caverns and cave systems exists without opening. Created by ground water erosion. Sorry, I meant to say all tunnels and caverns in the game. You could go through all that effort. But blah. And at least that's more effort than required for today's same kind of base build. And on the bright side, you only get to build this type of base where the world genned the granite. Which may not be flush up against multiple biome's for simplest resource gain access. I always explore every cave I find, and evaluate it for its potential as a base or mine. So the scouting part wouldn't really be more effort. I agree the random, unpredictable sites for where you could build such bases would make things more interesting, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menace312 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 As some have already pointed out, a foundation block that intentionally breaks the SI calculations would allow this. Every slab of foundation blocks is perfectly supported from the side. This "bridge" can be extended infinitely so you would have the supports for your floating base beyond the range at which zombies spawn. -snip- Well to be fair, Roland did state, that for this idea to be viable, there needs to be a rule that only allows for the presence of one layer of foundation blocks per connected blocks. So what you are describing could not happen, since you would only be able to lay down foundation blocks once. But again, this new rule could end up adding to load... I'm not well-versed in the game code, so me knows not the answer I see this working if: 1. We accept that weird things CAN be build. 2. It's made sure that it cannot be exploited in game breaking ways. It doesn't matter if weird stuff can be made... Because who would do it (except for fun), if it is a really bad strategy? Really though, I hope the raw SI calc can be archived for the whole world as it is attempted now... I don't know whether that's a dream or not, but I've seen some interesting ideas on the forum... Like f.ex. a type of sectionized SI calculation around the players instead of around 0,0. Again I have no idea if that's even possible, but it seems more attractive to me to try and fix the current SI implementation instead of inventing a new block fix... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I always explore every cave I find, and evaluate it for its potential as a base or mine. Are you crazy, a cave is a Deathtrap. As Death is Death player i visited 2 or 3 Caves my last 1000 Hours of gameplay. ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crater Creator Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 And what evidence makes you believe that the developers are planning to kill the character 5 seconds after spawning? I mean you can mod this but why do you want to? What are you trying to achieve by this? Oy. I've made like 50 posts today and this is the one that piques your interest? How about helping me chew on this idea instead? I used to use the example of zombie ghosts that move through any block at any speed. But then at some point people started considering zombie ghosts more seriously, so I had to switch to ever more outlandish examples in hopes the point wouldn't be lost. The point is that the developers are the gods of their game universe. Whether it's a good idea or not, they can set the laws of physics however they want, up to and including in ways the players can't counter. Therefore saying players can always come up with a counter is actually incorrect, in addition to severely misreading the developer's motivations for design decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graphite Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Regarding the floor or ceiling calculation start I will give Gazz a laugh with my ramblings. I was thinking you have 2 values regarding SI mass and stability glue stored from block data that is availabe to SI. Floor up calculation. When in contact with bedrock if a block is on the vertical face the rule is do not subtract mass of the block placed on top. Run check is current calculated SI load of included block == to Max load so for a vertical placed block is true. If you place a block on a side face rule is to subtract mass from calculated SI load and compare to Max load. Calculated SI == max load is false so run another check to see if calculated SI is greater than zero which we will say is true. Then any block that is connected its mass is deducted and checks run again. If a another supporting vertical block is placed then Max load is added to. I did try and work out a path a ruleset for ceiling down but i thought that if someone has it in there head then it would be more correct than than the version i have. I started getting stuck on pathing down to a supporting block. I am guessing the mass is totaled and then compared to the max load but not sure how you determine a vertical block splice. I am guessing someone can explain an equally logical system for top block down but it was interesting for me to think about. I will keep on attempting to crunch it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Its a bit amusing how many exceptions or necessities we develop on that topic. Finally every player who want to build a base would need to spend some weeks in a University faculty of "7D2D SI" Finaly we need it self-explaining / intuitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menace312 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Its a bit amusing how many exceptions or necessities we develop on that topic. Finally every player who want to build a base would need to spend some weeks in a University faculty of "7D2D SI" Finaly we need it self-explaining / intuitive. Hah, well if all went well, the player wouldn't notice... They'd just experience stable SI The game does however require a bit of brainpower in the beginning anyway. I'm not ashamed to admit, that it took me more time then it should have, for me to grasp the whole: block weight vs horizontal support vs different blocks with different properties... Ok maybe a little ashamed... But I never did play Minecraft, sooo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graphite Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I think in its current state it is intuitive it takes a bit of work though. Back before the PC version got me i made a thread in the console section of my adventure in SI. https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?74625-SI-Pathing-and-Block-config-Discussion Either people could not understand my crazy talk or it was completely wrong i will never know lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stallionsden Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I didn't say no way of counteracting a threat, I said no way of counteracting all threats. You're missing the point. The developers could hard code the game to just straight up kill your character 5 seconds after s/he spawns. The players could not come up with a defense against that. So saying players will always come up with a counter is wrong. You're changing the subject. Something can be "magical" or not whether or not a lot of people play it. Games use smoke and mirrors, so to speak, all the time. For example, whole chunks of the world pop into and out of existence all the time! If that's not magic, I don't know what is. Thankfully, this magic is carefully controlled to happen in places where, to the extent possible, you don't notice it. That would be the case here, too. So while digger zombies not spawning until they're close enough for it to be necessary also sounds like magic, the principles are the same as in all the other smoke and mirrors going on. Good grief. Have you ever dug a hole? Did you happen to notice the growing pile of dirt you had to put somewhere? Did you happen to notice you can't destroy matter? That would be magic. But a good gamer and player of a game always will come up with ways to win. Ways to stop a threat. To stop all threats. It's not wrong it's how a game is spose to be played. No one... I should say like most will not play a game if the end result is never be able to win or counter the threat that keeps killing a player. A good gamer can counter "all" threats tho. TFP added the spider z. What did players do..... add 1 block on the outside of the base..... threat neutralised. Yep added zs. Players simply built a cage to fight them and they could not get to the player. Yep had the cop that shoots puke. How did gamers nullify this threat... they built more spikes keeping them further away and holes so the cop fell down and lost line of site. My point is no matter what TFP throw at gamers. (Well unless they want to kill players joy and potential customers from buying this game and every other by adding in silly things like your example per say) good players and eventually newbs who learn to play will win. Will neutralise any threat... however the means they do it. Sorry I disagree my point I think was spot on. The difference between carrying 30k stone in your backpack and magically spawned zs right in front of you are so far apart it's not funny. Put 2 games out 1 game has magical spawned zs and only able to carry 3 things no blocks against a game that has zs that spawn appropriately and the ability to carry stuff and build bases and giving an appropriate amount of resource carry is going to way out sell the first game hands down. Everyone is complaining bout the zs spawning on top of us. Spawning suddenly etc yet the digging z is exactly the same. By aforementioned opinions of it being spawned next to where you are.. By all means TFP can add a digger z but I guarantee within a day if not less someone has found a way to counter it eleven with current mechanics and blocks and items.... - - - Updated - - - The counter for that would be a death game 3 Milliseconds after release Yep agree and every person whom purchased the game demanding a refund.... altho i do believe crater was purely giving a wild example.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crater Creator Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Sorry I don't understand the last paragraph or how they get across the pit. Maybe I need coffee.^^ Then perhaps this diagram will help, showing the results on two different example base designs. That's just your goal. My goal: I don't want more mechanics that produce teleporting zombies... All zombies blink into existence somewhere. If the results are indistinguishable or nearly so from what you'd experience if they spawned farther away, what's the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graphite Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 @Stallionsden So your point is dont add underground non colliding zombies that you cant see but can hear because there magical. Also digging zombies are a waste of time because the player will counter. Sounds a bit like warding off evil spirits and be scared of the bogey man but that may be a bit unfair and i have misunderstood your points. So to summarise you dont mind underground digging zombies just make sure that there not non collidable and they can be made a difficult opponent as long as there not in the realms of magical superpowers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crater Creator Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I simply cant imagine that, a bunker normally has Wall|Rock without space between. There cant be a line of sight/way to defend. Except the players need to build like on my Pictures above Again, if there are also some disadvantages to the walls of your base being hundreds of meters thick, I'm okay with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pille Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Then perhaps this diagram will help, showing the results on two different example base designs. Thanks. The situation showed in the upper right diagram shouldn't happen imo. Looks like a teleporting zombie to me. Btw. you have to add checks for motion sensor and other electricity stuff (wouldn't be easy, I guess)... Very nice diagrams btw. How did you make them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crater Creator Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Are you crazy, a cave is a Deathtrap. As Death is Death player i visited 2 or 3 Caves my last 1000 Hours of gameplay. ^^ Not sure if you're serious... Caves, like other underground habitats, can easily be made completely safe. That's only what we've been talking about all week! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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