Still no jars

[aceguy7]

6 hours ago, Javabean867 said:

its called the water filter mod for your helmet and a bucket.  Create a basic with a bunch of cube blocks.  fill it with water from from a bucket and you have all the water you can drink(which apparently is quite a lot lol.

Yea lol sure you can do that but it feels cheap taking advantage of a glitch? I want something that at least makes more sense from an immersion stand point.

[Javabean867]

4 hours ago, aceguy7 said:

Yea lol sure you can do that but it feels cheap taking advantage of a glitch? I want something that at least makes more sense from an immersion stand point.

I hear you, and understand,  but another way to think of it is you are creating a water catch for rain water.  Put it right next to a building, that way for immersion purposes, you get all the water from the roof area.

[rateds2k]

Not a glitch, it was made to be used that way.

[InfiniteWarrior]

On 10/6/2024 at 9:01 AM, Mister Forgash said:

This game is an abomination to COMMON SENSE!!

It is, actually, an abomination to common aestethic sense to fish bottles of water, "murky" or otherwise, from toilets and coffee pots when there are rivers and streams and ditches and even a waterworks from which to draw water to boil for drinking in the game. Would you actually do that yourself were an apocalypse of any kind taking place? Oh, sure, you might fill a bathtub to flush the toilets and what have you, but I very much doubt you'd drink that. But, of course, we all know it's not drinking water TFP have an issue with but glue and duct tape. Not to mention that more and more video games are concerned solely with mechanics and RNG while aesthetics are ever more rarely given the time of day.

I sincerely doubt the vast majority of people playing the game are at all interested in exploiting the game's systems, yet TFP appear to be determined to shut down anything and everything, common sensical or not, that could possibly be "exploited" by min-maxers and speed runners and "meta" gamers, which is a patent impossibility. Not all (and likely not most) players of video games are min-maxers and speed runners and meta gamers who make it their mission in life to find ways to game a game and would prefer "survival" (or "immersive") mechanics make a modicum of sense. I can completely understand that point of view whether anyone disagrees with the view holders or not.

It's been said (and demonstrated ad infinitum, I'm sure) that smithing skills can be artificially inflated in Skyrim by crafting hundreds of iron daggers to accomplish the task. I've never done so myself because purposely seeking out "exploits" in video games has never been a goal for me. I'm usually there to enjoy the game world. So I can easily see why it looks like an "abomination" from an aesthetic point of view. TFP could have changed the recipe for glue; eliminated the retrieval of a bottle once purified water was consumed from it; etc.; if it really bothered them so much that a minority of players will spend dozens of their real lifetime hours building as many water purifiers as possible in Fallout 4 and 76 just to make a boatload of caps they wouldn't otherwise whereas others will build the minimum required to support a settlement.

It wouldn't hurt this community in the least, imo, to try and see and understand multiple points of view on any subject regardless the decisions TFP chooses to make about the game's mechanics.

Edited October 9 by InfiniteWarrior (see edit history)

[warmer]

On 10/6/2024 at 6:16 AM, pApA^LeGBa said:

Won´t happen. Either adapt to it or use a mod.

Where have I heard this before?

[pApA^LeGBa]

56 minutes ago, warmer said:

Where have I heard this before?

 

There is a difference between adding a toggle to turn feral sense on and off and reworking the whole water mechanic again.

 

It´s simply not realistic that they give us back glass jars. Mostly because they don´t want to, but also because we are too late into development to change that mechanic again.

 

You are comparing apples and oranges here. Even worse you are actually comparing apples and cows here. LIke i already said in the other topic there is things were "Mod it" is a legit answer. But not for everything. The world isn´t just black and white. There is a ton of grey inbetween...

 

I really don´t know why you are so keen on hating the idea to toggle feral sense on and off. It doesn´t effect you at all if they do so. Live and let live.

Edited October 9 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[InfiniteWarrior]

17 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

The world isn´t just black and white. There is a ton of grey in between

I can easily see the old and new water collection systems working side by side with maybe some tweaks to bottle collection, e.g. eliminating the ability to craft jars. Having not played with the bottle system in place (picked it back up with A21), I tried the mod that reinstates them having come across the controversy about it to see for myself how it plays. Love it. Opens up the appeal of wilderness areas quite a bit*, but I also understand TFP would just as soon players not be "swimming in water" by day 3. So, it would be a tricky balance, indeed, to strike were it reinstated alongside dew collectors rather than modded back in. I imagine most players would simply pursue which or a reasonable combination of both they would use in any given playthrough whereas others would "exploit" both.

*The wilderness areas are suffering mightily in this game, imo. Most everyone I've seen runs straight to towns, cities and traders, if not follow the breadcrumbs to the letter, simply because they must, leaving the wilderness bereft of much other than rocks and trees. The occasional wilderness POIs are designed the same as every other POI in the game, so they're not unique enough to hold much interest unless a player decides to pursue the cabin in the woods fantasy of "living off the land." It's just a whole lot of empty space, atm, with generic ore veins and such that can be found just as easily near the towns and cities. That's kind of anathema for an open world, "go where you want; do what you want" kind of game. If TFP wanted it restricted to more urban areas, the setting might have been a fairly sizable city as opposed to "open world." But, of course, hindsight is 20-20.

[zztong]

15 minutes ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

Opens up the appeal of wilderness areas quite a bit*, but I also understand TFP would just as soon players not be "swimming in water" by day 3.

 

15 minutes ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

The wilderness areas are suffering mightily in this game, imo. Most everyone I've seen runs straight to towns, cities and traders,

 

I agree completely. The wilderness could be linked to fresh water and perhaps become more than the POIs you ignore on your way to a settlement. IMO, going out into the wilderness to find water is a good thing. Choosing a base location near fresh water is a good thing. It could lead to interesting opportunity costs and game choices.

 

When it comes to water, I argued pretty hard to retain the ability to carry water away from water sources. I don't care if there are empty jars, or not. Pulling murky water directly from a lake is cool with me. Real life water is heavy and to me embracing that (via stacking limits) offers a natural limit. Needing a Chemistry Station to completely eliminate dysentery is cool with me. I'd renew those discussions if I thought they would be helpful.

 

Tying fresh water to the wilderness was on my mind at the time. I'm also weird in that I think traders make more sense in the wilderness. If you're a trader, why build in a city full of zombies? I admit Traders in the wilderness would be unpopular with most players as it means more walking and driving.

 

TFP has a better handle on things than I do and I trust their judgement. They're a good team and know what they're doing, but the water decision didn't resonate with me. I felt they elected for short-term water scarcity issues where I prefer longer-term water purity and transport issues.

[zztong]

 

9 hours ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

It is, actually, an abomination to common aestethic sense to fish bottles of water, "murky" or otherwise, from toilets and coffee pots when there are rivers and streams and ditches and even a waterworks from which to draw water to boil for drinking in the game. Would you actually do that yourself were an apocalypse of any kind taking place?

 

To me, this kind of discussion depends on how long ago the apocalypse happened. If it were only a few weeks ago, you bet I'd drink out of the toilet before drinking out of a river. That's potable water in the toilet's tank. The toilet bowl? Well that depends on the state of the bow. Someone with some foresight will fill a bathtub with water. That will let them live in solitude for a month.

 

Given enough time, water in a toilet bowl and in plumbing evaporates. During the pandemic, we saw those thing dry up in about three months. Water in toilet tanks, hot water heaters, and the prepper's bathtub have more capacity but they begin to grow bacteria if left sit. Then it is harder to say if it is better than a river. You're just not going to have large quantities of potable water ever again without restoring much more of civilization. Go medieval and start brewing ales and beers to drink.

 

You can collect rain water, but that's not potable water as the containers won't be sterile. Sure, filtering and boiling it really helps. A solar still would be good, but its a slow and low-volume process. You can have water purification tablets, distillation and ... that's why I say let a Chemistry Set make potable water.

[theFlu]

9 minutes ago, zztong said:

That's potable water in the toilet's tank.

I've opened a couple of those tanks; while the water coming in is as potable as the water from the tap (being the same thing), the tanks themselves grow a culture of .. things. Better than dying of dehydration, but I'd boil the heck out of it, and drink in small portions so the stomach acids can work their magic on whatever happened to grow there...

[zztong]

46 minutes ago, theFlu said:

I've opened a couple of those tanks; while the water coming in is as potable as the water from the tap (being the same thing), the tanks themselves grow a culture of .. things. Better than dying of dehydration, but I'd boil the heck out of it, and drink in small portions so the stomach acids can work their magic on whatever happened to grow there...

 

I certainly wouldn't say it was perfect, but assuming regular use (until the apocalypse) the water would pass through the system. Sure, there would be some remaining on the tank itself. Also, a hot water heater run at too low a temperature is an incubator so they're not always great either. Agreed, boil if you can.

[Maharin]

41 minutes ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

*The wilderness areas are suffering mightily in this game, imo. Most everyone I've seen runs straight to towns, cities and traders, if not follow the breadcrumbs to the letter, simply because they must, leaving the wilderness bereft of much other than rocks and trees. The occasional wilderness POIs are designed the same as every other POI in the game, so they're not unique enough to hold much interest unless a player decides to pursue the cabin in the woods fantasy of "living off the land." It's just a whole lot of empty space, atm, with generic ore veins and such that can be found just as easily near the towns and cities. That's kind of anathema for an open world, "go where you want; do what you want" kind of game. If TFP wanted it restricted to more urban areas, the setting might have been a fairly sizable city as opposed to "open world." But, of course, hindsight is 20-20.

 

The reason, almost exclusively, is the looting requirements of the game.  There is more to loot in towns and looting things means faster access to books, which in turn means faster access to the more advanced components of the game.  The game will require significant changes to turn the focus from looting to something else.  The current system almost completely ruins the replayability of the game for me.  The ramp up time to get out of the stone age alone makes starting over a chore, let alone getting to later stages.  The current system is just not at all compatible with how I like to play the game, so I will eventually change it.

[InfiniteWarrior]

5 hours ago, zztong said:

how long ago the apocalypse happened

Seems it's been a while in 7 Days. The rivers and streams are running clear and lakes are pretty clear as well, though I wouldn't trust them not to have the virus swimming around in them any more than the land or air.

[Old Crow]

On 10/7/2024 at 11:40 AM, aceguy7 said:

Yea lol sure you can do that but it feels cheap taking advantage of a glitch? I want something that at least makes more sense from an immersion stand point.

 

...How is this a glitch?

[Suxar]

15 hours ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

It is, actually, an abomination to common aestethic sense to fish bottles of water, "murky" or otherwise, from toilets and coffee pots when there are rivers and streams and ditches and even a waterworks from which to draw water to boil for drinking in the game. Would you actually do that yourself were an apocalypse of any kind taking place?

As far as I remember my school lessons, this is the most correct decision. For example, after a nuclear explosion or chemical attack, water in open sources will definitely be contaminated. The water supply in most city systems will be left without water, since the pumps will be turned off. The only normal source of clean water is the toilet cistern.

16 hours ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

It's been said (and demonstrated ad infinitum, I'm sure) that smithing skills can be artificially inflated in Skyrim by crafting hundreds of iron daggers to accomplish the task.

Unfortunately, there aren't really any other options in Skyrim. Blacksmithing simply doesn't level up during normal activities. Unlike Morrowind, where it happened naturally.

7 hours ago, zztong said:

When it comes to water, I argued pretty hard to retain the ability to carry water away from water sources. I don't care if there are empty jars, or not. Pulling murky water directly from a lake is cool with me.

It would be nice if it were possible to bring a bucket of water to the fire and boil it to get, for example, 5 cans of clean water.

7 hours ago, zztong said:

I'm also weird in that I think traders make more sense in the wilderness. If you're a trader, why build in a city full of zombies?

On the navezgane map they are far from the cities. But in the generated ones for some reason they are in the cities.

[InfiniteWarrior]

3 hours ago, Suxar said:

there aren't really any other options [to level smithing] in Skyrim

Than to artificially inflate the skill by crafting of hundreds of iron daggers? How did I get to ebony smithing over the due course of the game in that event?

I thought the perk system was awkward (though the UI was nice) because I had to invest in too many skills I didn't want in order to get to the ones that I did want in the skill trees, but leveled normally otherwise in that game, investing points where they were needed to raise the skills according to what kind of character I was playing from Pathfinder to the infamous stealth archer.

 

3 hours ago, Suxar said:

The only normal source of clean water is the toilet cistern.

Can't go along with that. I rather like zztong's ideas on the subject, though access to a chemistry bench would have to be granted far earlier in the game. (Probably not possible at this point. And I do wish we could have some of those we see in labs that simply sit on a counter. That bench is humongous.)

Moot, at any rate. TFP are apparently adamant the natural water sources will be used in the base game solely to create moats and what not. Not sure why you'd need one given the zombies can swim, though. (And that's perfectly fine by me.)

[Suxar]

2 minutes ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

the zombies can swim

I've never seen zombies swim. Mine always walk along the bottom. Try playing without mods.

[InfiniteWarrior]

3 minutes ago, Suxar said:

I've never seen zombies swim. Mine always walk along the bottom. Try playing without mods.

 

Poorly phrased on my part. Point is: they can make it across. No problem. Also, I don't play with a ton of mods, but only quality of life mods. Nothing is interfering with vanilla in my case.

Edited October 10 by InfiniteWarrior (see edit history)

[InfiniteWarrior]

9 hours ago, Maharin said:

The reason, almost exclusively, is the looting requirements of the game.

I agree, and have been racking my brains trying to think of ways to make the wilderness more viable. It doesn't appear anything will be done about it at this point, though.

[Gamida]

2 hours ago, Suxar said:

I've never seen zombies swim. Mine always walk along the bottom. Try playing without mods.

 

From my understanding is if you are in deep water and you are on the surface, the zombies will walk on bottom towards you and then when close or under you, they will swim up.

[zztong]

6 hours ago, Suxar said:

It would be nice if it were possible to bring a bucket of water to the fire and boil it to get, for example, 5 cans of clean water.

 

Yeh, I mod it so that when you point at a water block and hit "e" you don't drink, but instead get a jar of murky water. That action refreshes every 10 seconds and the stacking limit for murky gets set to 10, so you really have to work to have "infinite water." I don't mess with the loot tables, which I probably should look at doing as water from POIs is super common when it probably shouldn't be.

 

I also change the normal boiled water to have a dysentery chance. You can wipe that chance out if you max out Iron Gut. Or, when you finally get a Chemistry Set and start making the really good water then you can have potable water. Teas remain as they are, so if you're willing to do two steps of cooking you can avoid dysentery too.

 

I like it, but I've no indication or confidence that this approach has any mass appeal.

[Rotor]

42 minutes ago, zztong said:

I like it, but I've no indication or confidence that this approach has any mass appeal.

 

I would try it if'n when I am able to play again, like bang for bucket from @FramFramson

[warmer]

17 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

There is a difference between adding a toggle to turn feral sense on and off and reworking the whole water mechanic again.

 

It´s simply not realistic that they give us back glass jars. Mostly because they don´t want to, but also because we are too late into development to change that mechanic again.

 

I really don´t know why you are so keen on hating the idea to toggle feral sense on and off. It doesn´t effect you at all if they do so. Live and let live.

You can already toggle feral sense on an off. 

 

"It´s simply not realistic that they give us back glass jars. Mostly because they don´t want to, but also because we are too late into development to change that mechanic again."

 

This is exactly my point. You made it for me. Happy to see we agree.

[pApA^LeGBa]

@warmer I meant ofc rage mode not feral sense obviously.

 

And no we don´t agree. A rage mode toggle and bringing back glass jars are two completly different things. One is easy, the other needs a whole rework or a game mechanic again. Rage mode should be a toggle in vanilla that´s a simple change. Bringing back glass jars would delay development.  Because if they bring them back (which is 100% not happening, that´s the true reason why here "mod it" is the only option) they surely wouldn´t just bring it back like it was before.

 

Hence why for rage mode "Just mod it" is the worst option, for water jars it is the only one.

 

You refuse to say why you hate the idea so much. You act like those trolls on steam forums tbh, lots of hate for something that doesn´t effect you in any way but no reason why.

Edited October 10 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[theFlu]

50 minutes ago, warmer said:

This is exactly my point.

Your point is "too late in the development for settings"? ... guess what the previous answer is? "Too early in the development, we don't know if this is permanent and maintaining setting through the dev is pointless". That one is correct. And don't worry, I know you're just agroing; I'm just pointing out the obvious.