Does TFP like to create S-storms?

[InfiniteWarrior]

8 hours ago, Arez said:

What I'm saying, which I thought seemed pretty clear, is we're operating naturally, exactly as we're supposed to at this given time period. Just like everything else, for good or ill. We're primates using artificial systems to help bring us together in numbers too large for our biological, primate tendencies. Put 1000 chimps together and watch them rip each other apart.

The philosophy of Naturalism is very popular today I think, in part, because Western civilization lost touch with its roots somewhere along the way, specifically around the time of Isaac Newton and the burgeoning Mechanical philosophy. We've neglected our home, "the only home we've ever known," as Carl Sagan put it. The Church and its injunction of "dominion over" as opposed to stewardship of Nature didn't help matters in the least, but there appears to be a course correction underway at this point. Civilization appears to be learning once again to work with Nature's systems as opposed to trying to control, change or dominate them, though there are some branches of the sciences, e.g. bio- and geoengineering, that apparently haven't received the memo just yet. You'll see this course correction in the writings of scientists such as Adam Frank and Marcelo Gleiser (a professor of Naturalism, actually) who eschew reductionism and admit that the sciences' quest for the Theory of Everything is misguided, at best, etc. You'll also see it in the writings of authors such as Sufi teacher, Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee, and others in various historically repressed religious traditions, e.g. the Christian contemplative tradition, as well as the Pope's encyclical, Laudito Si. Indigenous wisdom also has never been more popular, obviously.

There is a danger inherent in it, though, and that is a return to the discredited Social Darwinism, which is the kind of philosophy you're suggesting with the dog eat dog analogies, its vestiges shambling on...like a zombie, actually...in predatory practices such as those that have taken over much of the gaming industry. Chimps may act that way in each others' company, but human beings are not obliged to do so themselves. I haven't much patience with the "humans are just hairless apes" folks myself. Quite obviously there are significant differences between us despite sharing DNA strains that differ only a smidgeon. We are creators and producers of art; music; poetry; and so much more. The new coziness between the Arts and Sciences also comes with an inherent danger written about in an article titled 'The Arts Can't Be Reduced to An Equation,' published in the The Independent several years ago. (It's no longer available online, though an excerpt is.)

The "artificial systems" are largely a projection of the refinement of the Mechanical philosophy redesignated Transhumanism to my mind, Transhumanism and its proponents -- the "Jeffelon Zuckergates" of the world -- proposing what is actually Cyborgism.

Anywho. Interesting stuff to ponder...and an awful lot of crossed wires to detangle. Thanks for participating.

Edited August 16 by InfiniteWarrior
For clarity (see edit history)

[Roland]

On 8/16/2024 at 12:44 AM, InfiniteWarrior said:

The thought occurred to me in another instance of this topic: How are microtransactions supposed to work in a mod-supported game run on community administered servers? What incentive is there for anyone to buy even "cosmetic" items, with or without bonuses, when mod authors will be producing them for free or maybe a pittance in donations? It doesn't make any sense. That's just one more reason I sincerely hope TFP will contemplate this one far more thoroughly. And just how much, if anything, does this have to do with console manufacturer's demands anyway? Console users are accustomed to having to pay to install anything, whether created by a mod author or not, on a console system. PC players, otoh, are not and this is technically a multiplayer game.

Bethesda's solution for the Atomic Shop in Fallout 76, of course, was to disallow modding the game despite having promised to implement mod support at some point in the future and despite it being run on central servers that literally can't have custom, game changing mods on them because they'd change the game for everyone playing it. So, unless modding is disallowed in 7DTD, I'm just not seeing the incentive on any side other than the console manufacturers'. And disallowing modding to make it happen would cause a firestorm, I'm sure.

 

Making a mod for an existing armor skin that duplicates the new abilities is going to be pretty simple to do. Creating a new skin with proper rigging and jiggle physics and without clipping is quite a bit more difficult. Most modders don't have the resources at their disposal in the way of art that TFP does. When modders add new assets to their game that aren't in vanilla 7 Days to Die they typically purchase them from an asset store rather than create original art themselves. 

 

So will modders copy DLC armor bonuses onto already existing skins and just call them by the new names even though they look the same as sets we already have? Sure and some people will be perfectly fine to have that for free.

 

Will modders attempt to create assets that match the new armor sets TFP puts out and solve all the problems that come up with that? Maybe. Depends on how many hours of work is involved. If the armor pack (if that is what it is) comes with 6 new armors and the whole pack only costs $1.99 then will modders think it worth their time and effort to try and offer a free alternative to something that only costs 2 bucks if it is going to be 100s of hours of work for them to do? And will most players think that saving a couple bucks is worth not having the professionally created assets?

 

So it all depends on information we don't have yet. Pricing matters, content amount matters, and convenience matters.

[Banginurz]

I don't even know why this is an issue, especially for those of us whom have been playing a while.  I spent 11ish dollars on this game and have north of 2400 hours in.  This game is on the same level as Skyrim and Warframe for me.  Imo, TFP can make a whole gaggle of DLC for reasonable prices and I'll pick them up if I need them or not.  The amount of time this game has had me hooked, TFP deserve it.  Just my 2 bits.

[TWORDY]

I don`t care. I really... truly don`t care. I have my money worth of a lifetime. Living a dream, another day in paradise.

 

The only thing is Pay 2 Win aspect of some of the statistics on the armor - only here I see a huge potential for a brewing storm in a teacup.

 

Some people shall finally understand that the game is 11 years out on the market and the devs need $$$ to keep on doing with this project. Inflation kicks in hard, init lads?

 

Devs could also create dedicated melee weapons for Bandits. Like a mace or sth. More or like a functional skins with slightly different stats. That would be cool. There is a new biome coming probably in the pipelines... I would expect some vehicles, guns, and locations someday. Let`s see first and then make formal complaints. 

[InfiniteWarrior]

1 hour ago, TWORDY said:

I don`t care. I really... truly don`t care. I have my money worth of a lifetime. Living a dream, another day in paradise.

 

The only thing is Pay 2 Win aspect of some of the statistics on the armor - only here I see a huge potential for a brewing storm in a teacup.

 

Some people shall finally understand that the game is 11 years out on the market and the devs need $$$ to keep on doing with this project. Inflation kicks in hard, init lads?

 

Devs could also create dedicated melee weapons for Bandits. Like a mace or sth. More or like a functional skins with slightly different stats. That would be cool. There is a new biome coming probably in the pipelines... I would expect some vehicles, guns, and locations someday. Let`s see first and then make formal complaints. 

Honestly, I have to wonder why they don't just wrap it up and move on to another project. Honestly, I think it has something to do with that "death spiral" mentioned earlier -- a minority of players determined to "exploit" any kind of system TFP might implement and TFP saying, "Erm, no. You're not doing that."

 

5 hours ago, Roland said:

If the armor pack (if that is what it is) comes with 6 new armors and the whole pack only costs $1.99 then will modders think it worth their time and effort to try and offer a free alternative to something that only costs 2 bucks if it is going to be 100s of hours of work for them to do? And will most players think that saving a couple bucks is worth not having the professionally created assets?

Riiight. Like they're going to cost $1.99. More like ten bucks, maybe more. And I wouldn't discount mod authors abilitites quite so easily. "Modlets" are nothing. Just change a few variables in a few XML files. No big deal. But the modding community of gaming in general is full of exceptionally talented, creative people who are more than capable of producing "professional" quality mods. (Think Sim Settlements and Fallout: London.) So, I'm still just not seeing the incentive in a game made by gamers for gamers that is run on community servers for anyone but console manufacturers.

[Riamus]

9 minutes ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

Honestly, I have to wonder why they don't just wrap it up and move on to another project. Honestly, I think it has something to do with that "death spiral" mentioned earlier -- a minority of players determined to "exploit" any kind of system TFP might implement and TFP saying, "Erm, no. You're not doing that."

 

Riiight. Like they're going to cost $1.99. More like ten bucks, maybe more. And I wouldn't discount mod authors abilitites quite so easily. "Modlets" are nothing. Just change a few variables in a few XML files. No big deal. But the modding community of gaming in general is full of exceptionally talented, creative people who are more than capable of producing "professional" quality mods. (Think Sim Settlements and Fallout: London.) So, I'm still just not seeing the incentive in a game made by gamers for gamers that is run on community servers for anyone but console manufacturers.

The roadmap shows that they are wrapping it up.  It has been clear in the latest alphas that they are polishing things like art and animations for a final product.  And they are already working on the next project with a different group of developers.

 

As far as incentive to buy cosmetics... people do that all the time even if games have mods that provide a similar experience.  Many people, for one reason or another, don't like mods and prefer having everything built into the vanilla version of the game (even if through a DLC).  You might not be willing to buy a cosmetic DLC.  It is very rare that I would ever buy a cosmetic DLC for any game either.  But there are many players who will, regardless of mods.

[TWORDY]

4 minutes ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

Honestly, I have to wonder why they don't just wrap it up and move on to another project. Honestly, I think it has something to do with that "death spiral" mentioned earlier -- a minority of players determined to "exploit" any kind of system TFP might implement and TFP saying, "Erm, no. You're not doing that."

 

Hold on... wait... some regular response... instead of misanthropy, if I read Your comment correctly 😛. My theorem of everything is to get a decent drink on Friday Night and go to sleep.

 

TFP will eventually wrap the game up and release more mini-dlcs. Everyone may bank on that.

[InfiniteWarrior]

2 minutes ago, Riamus said:

And they are already working on the next project with a different group of developers.

Then, they are not working on it, are they? The other company is developing that game using assets from 7DTD. 

 

3 minutes ago, Riamus said:

As far as incentive to buy cosmetics... people do that all the time even if games have mods that provide a similar experience.... But there are many players who will, regardless of mods.

Yeah. That's been covered in previous comments. There has yet to be turn in public sentiment about video game "cosmetics". The idea has been normalized to the point that most don't question it.  The public turn may happen; it may not; but I imagine as everything gets worse for everyone, it will. By that time, though, most of us will be just scraping by, if that, and the "issue" will be moot.

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

Then, they are not working on it, are they? The other company is developing that game using assets from 7DTD. 

 

Yeah. That's been covered in previous comments. There has yet to be turn in public sentiment about video game "cosmetics". The idea has been normalized to the point that most don't question it.  The public turn may happen; it may not; but I imagine as everything gets worse for everyone, it will. By that time, though, most of us will be just scraping by, if that, and the "issue" will be moot.

I am not talking about Blood Moons.  TFP is working on their next project using their own people, but people who are different from those currently working on this game.

 

You said you didn't see an incentive.  And I gave you the incentive that many people will have even if you or I do not.  That incentive is that it is part of the base game rather than a mod and it is something they want.  That's really all the incentive there needs to be for many people.

[InfiniteWarrior]

5 minutes ago, Riamus said:

I am not talking about Blood Moons. 

Do tell. What project are you talking about?

[Riamus]

2 hours ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

Do tell. What project are you talking about?

They have only mentioned that they have started it.  They aren't likely to give actual details until gold.  They've specifically stated that it's a separate team and is not taking away from development of this game.

[TWORDY]

Why do we have to always predict doom and gloom before the storm hits the sea shore. Let TFP do their best job. I will be one of the first to criticize when the things finally go south. I will gladly take my place in the queue!

[Krougal]

26 minutes ago, TWORDY said:

Why do we have to always predict doom and gloom before the storm hits the sea shore. Let TFP do their best job. I will be one of the first to criticize when the things finally go south. I will gladly take my place in the queue!

Well, pre-sales is a thing so I guess pre-@%$#ing is a consequence of that?

It was just a matter of time.

Edited August 18 by Krougal (see edit history)

[TWORDY]

4 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Well, pre-sales is a thing so I guess pre-@%$#ing is a consequence of that?

It was just a matter of time.

 

I wouldn`t have a problem with pre-orders. But this is the incentive for the companies to milk early profits and dump the game later except for micro-transactions.

 

What I hate the most are super duper collectors editions for 120+ bucks. Teaser, trailers that have nothing to do with the actual in-game footage and gameplay. Reassurances to the community that they will get some treatment this time. Life service but without any clear roadmap or upcoming content. 

 

And on the release day stuttery 60 frames on high-end PCs, constant crashes, constant de-syncs, broken game that needs updates for the next 6 months after release day to even stay on the server with friends together. Maps and balancing that completely turn upside down the gameplay. No previous in-game features, like such things never existed for the past decades. Everything that Community worked on for years gets trashed into a bin, like nobody needs it. The community gets called out by the Publishers to be detached from reality.

 

But the in-game store with DLCs always f@k&n" works! It`s magic!

 

So obviously nobody likes to pay for better statistics while the game is nowhere near to be properly put together not to mention to be fixed!

[Mister Forgash]

Seeing this thread so active makes me confident the community likes to stir up S-storms a lot more than The Pimps do.

 

We barely know anything about the DLC, it's too early to decide if it's overpriced, under quality, the thing that ruins the game utterly, or the beginning of the angrygamer uprising.

I think TFP have been pretty good so far, though. The wait for bandits sucks, I want the event system now, little crap like that. I feel the balance and pacing of the game is improving, I love the speed of RNG, the feel of the towns and cities now.  It's not zombie apocalypse nirvana or anything, yet, but what I see assures me the devs are putting in the work to make this game excellent. 

So with that said, I trust the DLC will be fine. -But the best part is, even if it isn't, it's going to be non-essential, so anyone that feels like it's a waste of money can just ignore it all together. 

[Krougal]

1 hour ago, TWORDY said:

 

I wouldn`t have a problem with pre-orders. But this is the incentive for the companies to milk early profits and dump the game later except for micro-transactions.

 

What I hate the most are super duper collectors editions for 120+ bucks. Teaser, trailers that have nothing to do with the actual in-game footage and gameplay. Reassurances to the community that they will get some treatment this time. Life service but without any clear roadmap or upcoming content. 

 

And on the release day stuttery 60 frames on high-end PCs, constant crashes, constant de-syncs, broken game that needs updates for the next 6 months after release day to even stay on the server with friends together. Maps and balancing that completely turn upside down the gameplay. No previous in-game features, like such things never existed for the past decades. Everything that Community worked on for years gets trashed into a bin, like nobody needs it. The community gets called out by the Publishers to be detached from reality.

 

But the in-game store with DLCs always f@k&n" works! It`s magic!

 

So obviously nobody likes to pay for better statistics while the game is nowhere near to be properly put together not to mention to be fixed!

Are you talking about Bethesda again lol

[TWORDY]

25 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Are you talking about Bethesda again lol

 

Far worse! Naaah no Bethesda this time. I don`t play anything from Bethesda. I don`t want to point fingers and promote them. But I will give You the tip, Early Access, and the worst rated company in online polls in the US!

 

1 hour ago, Mister Forgash said:

So with that said, I trust the DLC will be fine. -But the best part is, even if it isn't, it's going to be non-essential, so anyone that feels like it's a waste of money can just ignore it all together. 

 

It`s non-essential for non-PvP players. This is only relevant for me in terms of supporting TFP. 

[Riamus]

2 hours ago, TWORDY said:

It`s non-essential for non-PvP players. This is only relevant for me in terms of supporting TFP. 

Which to be fair is most players.  Not sure if anyone has valid stats on the number of PVP players for this game versus regular players, but it can't be a very high percent.  The game really isn't designed for PVP and there are far better PVP games out there.  But even with PVP, if they introduce an armor bonus that is powerful in a DLC, a PVP server could easily mod an existing armor to offer the same bonuses and it won't matter if some players buy the DLC and some do not.  In most cases, a PVP server can mod whatever is being sold as DLC into the game with little effort, at least in terms of effects, which is what matters, even if not in terms of looks, which doesn't matter.

[TheDay755Hero]

I wouldn't mind paid DLCs as long as the outfits have unique buffs or traits. However, I would avoid them like the plague if they are reskinned or cringe-inducing. Battlefield V introduced bad skins that caused me to stop playing because they were genuinely distracting and out of place.

[TWORDY]

30 minutes ago, TheDay755Hero said:

I wouldn't mind paid DLCs as long as the outfits have unique buffs or traits. However, I would avoid them like the plague if they are reskinned or cringe-inducing. Battlefield V introduced bad skins that caused me to stop playing because they were genuinely distracting and out of place.

 

I would like skins with broken stats rather than cringe ones. True story. I stayed on BF4 with my own TDM server. BF1 is pretty cool. BFV and 2042 - too much @%$#z.

[TheDay755Hero]

11 hours ago, TWORDY said:

I would like skins with broken stats rather than cringe ones. True story. I stayed on BF4 with my own TDM server. BF1 is pretty cool. BFV and 2042 - too much @%$#z.

 

Exactly, Battlefield 1 is fantastic. BF V and BF 2042 are 🤢

Edited August 19 by TheDay755Hero (see edit history)

[stallionsden]

On 8/16/2024 at 10:06 PM, Gamida said:

 

I played Leisure Suit Larry when it originally came out in the 80's.

I still have some of the original games still in their boxes somewhere in my attic.

I have all the versions in my steam library right now but sadly haven't played them yet.

 

ha i remember as a kid sneaking into my dads office when he was away to play this lol 😄

[Gamida]

5 hours ago, stallionsden said:

ha i remember as a kid sneaking into my dads office when he was away to play this lol 😄

 

lol yeah that was what was considered a "raunchy" game back in the day

[Suxar]

20 hours ago, TWORDY said:

Far worse! Naaah no Bethesda this time. I don`t play anything from Bethesda.

Both Skyrim and Starfield fit your description.

[TWORDY]

8 minutes ago, Suxar said:

Both Skyrim and Starfield fit your description.

Skyrim is more or less fine... I played a lot 10-12 years ago. I liked the game, mods are insane and insanely good. I looked at Starfields gameply and the video seemed underwhelming at first glance. Where and when is the next Elder Scrolls btw??? I have some time finally to write on TFPs website xD. I am currently playing DOOM + II refresh, an excellent update from Bethesda, native 1080p resolution and refresh monitor rates, plus additional content created over the decades! Highly recommend! I would paint Bethesda in more positive rather than negative colours, but it is my experience for the past 2 decades.