How do you deal with demolishers?

[RhinoW]

Don't respect demolishers, that's what will get you killed. Either pop them from afar, or gun them down with auto weapons with AP rounds... though I'm saying this because I have the penetrator perk which maxed out allows you to deal raw damage to them.

 

Also it's one of the absolute worst enemy designs in history.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, RhinoW said:

Don't respect demolishers, that's what will get you killed. Either pop them from afar, or gun them down with auto weapons with AP rounds... though I'm saying this because I have the penetrator perk which maxed out allows you to deal raw damage to them.

 

Also it's one of the absolute worst enemy designs in history.

 

Without demos later horde nights with everyone having best weapons would be boring as the zombies have no chance. So glad the absolute worst enemy design got added to the game 😉

 

[RhinoW]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

Without demos later horde nights with everyone having best weapons would be boring as the zombies have no chance. So glad the absolute worst enemy design got added to the game 😉

 

It doesn't take the fact it's a bad enemy design. So many more concepts could've taken its place. It's not like hordes don't get easy anymore, because they do, and they become trivial after a while since its always the same thing, bullet sponges hitting your walls, with the exception of the cop.

 

They just put a kamikaze effect on the toughest enemy in the game, that already deals 500 block damage with each attack. You don't need the explosion. Not to mention the concept itself connected to its visual design doesn't make sense at all. (C4 strapped to a military guy and a bunch of nades or canisters whatever around him?)

 

Here's better examples:

 

Horde of kamikazes, self explanatory, low hp, glowing, really fast zombies that just want to blow up

Bruiser tank zombie (demolisher but without the explosion, and much more focus on his melee attacks, perhaps a small AoE punch that also damages blocks)

Driller zombie that while not as fast, would have mutated hands that allow him to destroy stone/concrete blocks really fast.

Support buffer zombie that, well, buffs nearby zombies

Screamer that stuns the player with a projected scream, making him miss shots and lose pressure

EMP zombie that destabilizes and makes turrets and eletric equipment malfunction in a radius around him

 

 

 

[Riamus]

39 minutes ago, RhinoW said:

It doesn't take the fact it's a bad enemy design. So many more concepts could've taken its place. It's not like hordes don't get easy anymore, because they do, and they become trivial after a while since its always the same thing, bullet sponges hitting your walls, with the exception of the cop.

 

They just put a kamikaze effect on the toughest enemy in the game, that already deals 500 block damage with each attack. You don't need the explosion. Not to mention the concept itself connected to its visual design doesn't make sense at all. (C4 strapped to a military guy and a bunch of nades or canisters whatever around him?)

 

Here's better examples:

 

Horde of kamikazes, self explanatory, low hp, glowing, really fast zombies that just want to blow up

Bruiser tank zombie (demolisher but without the explosion, and much more focus on his melee attacks, perhaps a small AoE punch that also damages blocks)

Driller zombie that while not as fast, would have mutated hands that allow him to destroy stone/concrete blocks really fast.

Support buffer zombie that, well, buffs nearby zombies

Screamer that stuns the player with a projected scream, making him miss shots and lose pressure

EMP zombie that destabilizes and makes turrets and eletric equipment malfunction in a radius around him

 

 

 

I like them. 😁

 

It is fun to blow them up and create craters around the base.  The only time I ever ran into trouble with them was when I tried out a tower horde base design and one got inside the tower and blew up.  That was bad.  But it was my fault for the design.  Other than that, they aren't a big deal unless you are trying to kill them face to face inside your horde base and aren't careful with your shots.

[lord_ahriman]

My horde defence got, give or take, 50% destroyed, because electric fences are now setting demos off. Day 21, snow, 64 zombies, gamestage 183 I think 3 or 4 explosions and a just concrete horde defense got damaged pretty bad, but I managed to kill entire horde close to 1 am (742 zombies killed). Of course it was possible due to a massive amount of pipe bombs, but that's the only way to face a very hard horde night in A21 early game.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, RhinoW said:

It doesn't take the fact it's a bad enemy design. So many more concepts could've taken its place. It's not like hordes don't get easy anymore, because they do, and they become trivial after a while since its always the same thing, bullet sponges hitting your walls, with the exception of the cop.

 

They just put a kamikaze effect on the toughest enemy in the game, that already deals 500 block damage with each attack. You don't need the explosion. Not to mention the concept itself connected to its visual design doesn't make sense at all. (C4 strapped to a military guy and a bunch of nades or canisters whatever around him?)

 

Here's better examples:

 

Horde of kamikazes, self explanatory, low hp, glowing, really fast zombies that just want to blow up

Bruiser tank zombie (demolisher but without the explosion, and much more focus on his melee attacks, perhaps a small AoE punch that also damages blocks)

Driller zombie that while not as fast, would have mutated hands that allow him to destroy stone/concrete blocks really fast.

Support buffer zombie that, well, buffs nearby zombies

Screamer that stuns the player with a projected scream, making him miss shots and lose pressure

EMP zombie that destabilizes and makes turrets and eletric equipment malfunction in a radius around him

 

 

 

 

The demo without the explosion would be just what you deride, a bullet sponge.

 

Kamikazes with low hps can just be targeted as priority and are easy cannon fodder unless just one of them has the same destruction potential as a demo and then what is the difference really? Same goes for driller zombie, just that you can easily shoot at him without having to fear the explosion.

 

 

 

 

[RhinoW]

3 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

The demo without the explosion would be just what you deride, a bullet sponge.

 

Kamikazes with low hps can just be targeted as priority and are easy cannon fodder unless just one of them has the same destruction potential as a demo and then what is the difference really? Same goes for driller zombie, just that you can easily shoot at him without having to fear the explosion.

 

 

 

 

But the demo is by all means a bullet sponge already, that if you miss a shot, destroys your base. You kinda proved my point there.

 

Kamikazes with low hp can be targeted as a priority, much like the demolisher, yes, that's the whole point of the demolisher, getting your attention, without it being a BS enemy for the most part (mind you, I don't really have that many troubles with demolishers, its simply a bad design overall). Lots of kamikazes will force you to take quick shots or they 'll explode upon attacking the wall. Different than the demolisher, its high octane time attack with them, while not being spongy.

 

The driller zombie would simply breach your walls, and you would have to spot him, since he won't be glowing like the demolisher from a mile away. And the fear of the explosion, is the fear of the explosion that goes through walls before breaking them, considering most electronics have awful resistances anyways. Not breaching my walls. He already does that without exploding. Which the hypothetical breacher/driller zombie, would do.

 

And I like how you didn't mention the other ideas. Because your original point was boring and samey blood moons, which those other 3 fix, in a more dynamic and diverse manner, than "another high HP zombie, but this one goes boom if you miss a shot, if you don't shoot anyways, he will break the wall fast, so kill it fast, also screw your turrets, blade traps and spikes, oh and he also has 60% damage reduction if you dont use AP"

[meilodasreh]

The easiest way to "handle" them is how I do it:

Just lose interest early enough and start over again before they even show up 😅

...considering we're in experimental state, where it is so likely that every randomly apperaring next build will mess up your savegame,

I think it is a thought-out strategy 😉😀

[Old Crow]

6 hours ago, RhinoW said:

It doesn't take the fact it's a bad enemy design. So many more concepts could've taken its place. It's not like hordes don't get easy anymore, because they do, and they become trivial after a while since its always the same thing, bullet sponges hitting your walls, with the exception of the cop.

 

They just put a kamikaze effect on the toughest enemy in the game, that already deals 500 block damage with each attack. You don't need the explosion. Not to mention the concept itself connected to its visual design doesn't make sense at all. (C4 strapped to a military guy and a bunch of nades or canisters whatever around him?)

 

Here's better examples:

 

Horde of kamikazes, self explanatory, low hp, glowing, really fast zombies that just want to blow up

Bruiser tank zombie (demolisher but without the explosion, and much more focus on his melee attacks, perhaps a small AoE punch that also damages blocks)

Driller zombie that while not as fast, would have mutated hands that allow him to destroy stone/concrete blocks really fast.

Support buffer zombie that, well, buffs nearby zombies

Screamer that stuns the player with a projected scream, making him miss shots and lose pressure

EMP zombie that destabilizes and makes turrets and eletric equipment malfunction in a radius around him

 

 

 

 

Would we really need driller zombies? The normal ones already dig ridiculously fast anyway.

 

That said, I like the other ideas, they'd be be really interesting and would be super fun. Something Meganoth hates. XD

 

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

The demo without the explosion would be just what you deride, a bullet sponge.

 

Kamikazes with low hps can just be targeted as priority and are easy cannon fodder unless just one of them has the same destruction potential as a demo and then what is the difference really? Same goes for driller zombie, just that you can easily shoot at him without having to fear the explosion.

 

 

What is the explosion adding though? The demolisher is already a bullet sponge, with or without the explosion, so I don't see your point. And who cares which zombies are prioritized? We already prioritize demolishers, so why would that better than prioritizing a different threat?

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Old Crow said:

What is the explosion adding though? The demolisher is already a bullet sponge, with or without the explosion, so I don't see your point. And who cares which zombies are prioritized? We already prioritize demolishers, so why would that better than prioritizing a different threat?

 

You forget that it wasn't me that brought up the old "bullet sponge" complaint. The demos explosion has 3 effects:

 

1) You have a choice exploding him in a save distance if you spot him early enough and have a long range weapon (range is otherwise very useless in the game due to the limited distance that gets loaded).

 

2) It makes it more difficult hitting him without exploding him when you don't want to explode him. Give me a auto shottie or m60 and I can simply burst-kill any demo without explosion ability because I don't need to actually aim too carefully. Our group has seen lots and lots of demos exploding unwanted because we were not careful enough with shooting at him. Every other zombie in the game is killed easily with burst-shooting, the demo finally rewards players when they aim carefully.

 

3) The demo himself (depending on base design) seldom kills you. His most interesting effect is that he randomly "changes" your horde base, removing access ways and at worst thinning protective walls to you or opening new access ways for the normal zombies to go through. This tests the redundancy you might have built into your base or your own ability to react to changed circumstances. Ever built up your base so much that the zombies had no chance anymore? Some players like that, but usually it means even horde night gets boring. Only the demo explosion has the chance to mix that up again.

 

Some of Rhinos ideas have some of the same effects, for example the kamikazes, but I really don't see why the kamikazes should be such a great idea and the demo the worst idea ever.

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[meganoth]

9 hours ago, RhinoW said:

But the demo is by all means a bullet sponge already, that if you miss a shot, destroys your base. You kinda proved my point there.

 

If a single demo destroys your base if you miss a shot you have a badly designed base 😉. *I* don't have anything against zombies with lots of HPs, but the demo adds the additional difficulty to kill him safely without just trivially keeping your thumb on the trigger. That volatility you seem to fear is exactly what makes him into a danger.

 

9 hours ago, RhinoW said:

Kamikazes with low hp can be targeted as a priority, much like the demolisher, yes, that's the whole point of the demolisher, getting your attention, without it being a BS enemy for the most part (mind you, I don't really have that many troubles with demolishers, its simply a bad design overall). Lots of kamikazes will force you to take quick shots or they 'll explode upon attacking the wall. Different than the demolisher, its high octane time attack with them, while not being spongy.

 

If the kamikazes have in sum the same hps as a demo then what is the difference really? What makes the kamikazes NOT a bullet sponge in sum when you need exactly the same amount of bullets to get them off the map and they spawn at the same time (if I get your idea right) ? You were repeating your "bad design" mantra without having first argued why really, while some of your new ideas seem like weaker copies of some of the demos features so you presumably have an easier time. At least in your last post you brought up a short summary why you don't like the demo, thanks for that.

 

9 hours ago, RhinoW said:

And I like how you didn't mention the other ideas.

 

I don't think most of your ideas are really bad, but I also don't want to waste my free time analyzing each and every idea someone brings up. Actually it would be more your task to argue for your ideas with a honest analysis of advantages and disadvantages. Ideas are like food recipes, everyone has dozens of them, but only a few are really good. Worse, ideas are recipes without quantities so someone assessing them has to do most of the real work himself.

 

At a first impression I would say some of your ideas would not bring that much difference to the game **unless** they were actually bullet spongy. I could say a lot more, but I would need to write a few paragraphs to discuss every single idea of yours and its likely consequences. And then you would simply come back with "But I meant this zombie to have this additional characteristic I forgot to mention" and it would go into another round. Sorry, I have seen this too often.

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Old Crow]

49 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

You forget that it wasn't me that brought up the old "bullet sponge" complaint. The demos explosion has 3 effects:

 

1) You have a choice exploding him in a save distance if you spot him early enough and have a long range weapon (range is otherwise very useless in the game due to the limited distance that gets loaded).

 

2) It makes it more difficult hitting him without exploding him when he is near. Give me a auto shottie or m60 and I can simply burst-kill any demo without explosion ability because I don't need to actually aim too carefully. Our group has seen lots and lots of demos exploding unwanted because we were not careful enough with shooting at him.

 

3) The demo himself (depending on base design) seldom kills you. His most interesting effect is that he randomly "changes" your horde base, removing access ways and at worst thinning protective walls to you or opening new access ways for the normal zombies to go through. This tests the redundancy you might have built into your base or your own ability to react to changed circumstances. Ever built up your base so much that the zombies had no chance anymore? Some players like that, but usually it means even horde night gets boring. Only the demo explosion has the chance to mix that up again.

 

Some of Rhinos ideas have some of the same effects, for example the kamikazes, but I really don't see why the kamikazes should be such a great idea and the demo the worst idea ever.

 

 

I think the idea is the kamikazes are faster, and thus more of a challenge to deal with. It kind of reminds me of an enemy from Dark Souls 2 - they run up to you, jump at you, and explode on their own.

[RhinoW]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

If a single demo destroys your base if you miss a shot you have a badly designed base 😉. *I* don't have anything against zombies with lots of HPs, but the demo adds the additional difficulty to kill him safely without just trivially keeping your thumb on the trigger. That volatility you seem to fear is exactly what makes him into a danger.

 

 

If the kamikazes have in sum the same hps as a demo then what is the difference really? What makes the kamikazes NOT a bullet sponge in sum when you need exactly the same amount of bullets to get them off the map and they spawn at the same time (if I get your idea right) ? You were repeating your "bad design" mantra without having first argued why really, while some of your new ideas seem like weaker copies of some of the demos features so you presumably have an easier time. At least in your last post you brought up a short summary why you don't like the demo, thanks for that.

 

 

I don't think most of your ideas are really bad, but I also don't want to waste my free time analyzing each and every idea someone brings up. Actually it would be more your task to argue for your ideas with a honest analysis of advantages and disadvantages. Ideas are like food recipes, everyone has dozens of them, but only a few are really good. Worse, ideas are recipes without quantities so someone assessing them has to do most of the real work himself.

 

At a first impression I would say some of your ideas would not bring that much difference to the game **unless** they were actually bullet spongy. I could say a lot more, but I would need to write a few paragraphs to discuss every single idea of yours and its likely consequences. And then you would simply come back with "But I meant this zombie to have this additional characteristic I forgot to mention" and it would go into another round. Sorry, I have seen this too often.

 

You purposefuly dodge my points about the demolisher and fail to understand why he is a poorly designed enemy. I should just drop this, but let me explain it to you slowly.

 

- The demolisher, like all late game enemies in the game, has around 800-1200 HP

- The demolisher has 60% damage reduction on top of that

- The demolisher stomps spikes and doesn't take damage

- The demolisher deals the highest amount of block damage to your base (500)

- The demolisher is a steroid version of all other common zombies with the ability to stomp spikes.

 

So what makes the demolisher so terrible?

 

The fact that it punishes you and your base, for playing the game. It's the only enemy, in the game, that requires the same focus fire as all other zombies, but even more so because of the damage reduction, but you have to carefully aim to avoid being punished for literally shooting at a zombie horde "trivially" (whatever the hell that means in this context). This is not his "ability", this is artificial difficulty that goes against the main flow of the game, you don't simply put a nuke on the tankiest enemy, that can go off if you miss a shot, on a game about unloading lots of ammo on hordes of zombies that are breaking the blocks in your base. 

 

- Traps can set him off, making your own turrets work against you

- Explosives can set him off, which I think is fine, because explosives are very good anyways, so I agree with that

 

And in the end, it adds nothing to the game, because his "ability", only acts if you miss a shot or he gets caught in a turret. Which is just annoying, if you can't see that on a game that's about base building and fighting hordes of zombies, I really don't need to continue this thread further. The cop does a much better job at this already, and is the game's best designed zombie yet. Imagine if the gargantuan from plants vs zombies had a chance to explode upon being shot, that's what the demolisher is.

 

And no, I don't have much trouble with demolishers, and my bases are not poorly designed. The demolisher is objectively a bad design that was shoehorned to create a difficulty spike, instead of having creative blood moons. The blood moons are still easy and will continue to be easy, no matter how many bullet sponges they add to the game, the only thing that will make them harder and more fun, is engaging fights with actual special infected (or nerfing ammo, that's way easier and much more cost efficient in production value am I right lads?)

 

It's not rocket-science to understand this, I could tune up the damage of the zombies to ridiculous levels, and make the game difficult in ridiculous ways, it doesn't mean its well designed, but it sure as hell gave you more difficulty.

 

 

Also, you don't have to defend this game tooth and nail. We're all on the same page here, I like this game as much as you do, if not more, that's why decisions like these annoy me. And seeing people blindly defending it without questioning stuff annoys me even more.

 

 

 

[Vampirenostra]

just shoot em in the face 😁

[Rotor]

7 minutes ago, Vampirenostra said:

just shoot em in the face 😁

 

Ding!

 

Again, make them crawl.  

[Riamus]

7 hours ago, RhinoW said:

You purposefuly dodge my points about the demolisher and fail to understand why he is a poorly designed enemy. I should just drop this, but let me explain it to you slowly.

 

- The demolisher, like all late game enemies in the game, has around 800-1200 HP

- The demolisher has 60% damage reduction on top of that

- The demolisher stomps spikes and doesn't take damage

- The demolisher deals the highest amount of block damage to your base (500)

- The demolisher is a steroid version of all other common zombies with the ability to stomp spikes.

 

So what makes the demolisher so terrible?

 

The fact that it punishes you and your base, for playing the game. It's the only enemy, in the game, that requires the same focus fire as all other zombies, but even more so because of the damage reduction, but you have to carefully aim to avoid being punished for literally shooting at a zombie horde "trivially" (whatever the hell that means in this context). This is not his "ability", this is artificial difficulty that goes against the main flow of the game, you don't simply put a nuke on the tankiest enemy, that can go off if you miss a shot, on a game about unloading lots of ammo on hordes of zombies that are breaking the blocks in your base. 

 

- Traps can set him off, making your own turrets work against you

- Explosives can set him off, which I think is fine, because explosives are very good anyways, so I agree with that

 

And in the end, it adds nothing to the game, because his "ability", only acts if you miss a shot or he gets caught in a turret. Which is just annoying, if you can't see that on a game that's about base building and fighting hordes of zombies, I really don't need to continue this thread further. The cop does a much better job at this already, and is the game's best designed zombie yet. Imagine if the gargantuan from plants vs zombies had a chance to explode upon being shot, that's what the demolisher is.

 

And no, I don't have much trouble with demolishers, and my bases are not poorly designed. The demolisher is objectively a bad design that was shoehorned to create a difficulty spike, instead of having creative blood moons. The blood moons are still easy and will continue to be easy, no matter how many bullet sponges they add to the game, the only thing that will make them harder and more fun, is engaging fights with actual special infected (or nerfing ammo, that's way easier and much more cost efficient in production value am I right lads?)

 

It's not rocket-science to understand this, I could tune up the damage of the zombies to ridiculous levels, and make the game difficult in ridiculous ways, it doesn't mean its well designed, but it sure as hell gave you more difficulty.

 

 

Also, you don't have to defend this game tooth and nail. We're all on the same page here, I like this game as much as you do, if not more, that's why decisions like these annoy me. And seeing people blindly defending it without questioning stuff annoys me even more.

 

 

 

This is just your own opinion of the demo.  They aren't a bad design just because you don't like them.  They offer a challenge other zombies do not and that is a good thing.  They are extremely easy to deal with if you pay attention, so the challenge is really only for people not paying attention.  But it's still an additional challenge.  I'd welcome even more zombies with similarly challenging aspects to them.

 

More health and armor for an end game zombie?  That is good.

More damage from an end game zombie?  That is good.

Cheap traps like spikes don't stop an end game zombie?  That is good.

Explosions if you don't take time to aim for an end game zombie?  That is good.

 

Any zombie that adds a new mechanic is a benefit.  Almost all zombies are the same thing beyond health or damage.  You have only a limited few who are special - the cop, the other spitting one that you rarely see, and the demo.  Sure, animals are a bit different but only slightly.  Having some that offer different challenges is a positive thing for the game.  As you said, just making things "bullet sponges" does not make them a good design.  Instead of doing that (that's what the wight is), they add something different and you get the demo.  Easy enough if you pay attention, but potentially damaging to your defenses.  A demo if really the only zombie that has any real potential to turn a cakewalk bloodmoon into a life and death situation if you aren't careful.  Everything else can be dealt with without even doing anything besides watching the zombies die as they attack your defenses.  The demo at least has the ability to do some real damage.  I'd call that a good thing.

[RhinoW]

I give up.

[RipClaw]

15 hours ago, Riamus said:

The demo at least has the ability to do some real damage.  I'd call that a good thing.

Actually, I have more problems with the radioactive cops than the demolishers. With their spit, they can either damage or destroy blade traps from a distance. And because they explode when they are low on health, they are much more unpredictable than demolishers and explode much more often.

 

[meganoth]

On 8/6/2023 at 3:31 PM, RhinoW said:

You purposefuly dodge my points about the demolisher and fail to understand why he is a poorly designed enemy

 

Oh thank you for telling me I am **purposefully** dodging your points. You are so charming today 😎. While you at the same time did not react to my argument above why the demo is actually a good design  ( https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/33300-how-do-you-deal-with-demolishers/?do=findComment&comment=535032 ). Yes, he is two steps above all other zombies. Which is exactly how boss enemies are designed in lots of other games. And as I said in that post, he makes sense as a sort of beach head that can create opportunities for the other zombies to reach you.

 

On 8/6/2023 at 3:31 PM, RhinoW said:

And in the end, it adds nothing to the game, because his "ability", only acts if you miss a shot or he gets caught in a turret.

 

Which is, according to my own experience in a 4 player MP game a very possible outcome. I see you finally explain your reasoning instead of expecting us just to swallow it:

 

On 8/6/2023 at 3:31 PM, RhinoW said:

The fact that it punishes you and your base, for playing the game. It's the only enemy, in the game, that requires the same focus fire as all other zombies, but even more so because of the damage reduction, but you have to carefully aim to avoid being punished for literally shooting at a zombie horde "trivially" (whatever the hell that means in this context).

 

The tower defense part of the game is (or should be) based on you continually improving your base. If you can **easily** build bases say with a field of spike traps around and keep that working even in end game by just upgrading blocks to steel it would be a rather trivial tower defense game. Ever played a tower defense game? It is based on you continually improving and adapting your base to different and stronger enemies. Mechanical spike traps are very basic defense traps for early game, why should they still function for every zombie in end game? 

 

You say it punishes your base, then next paragraph that you have no problem with the demo yourself. So why would he be badly designed when you, an experienced player have obviously found out how to cope with it? Really, the demo only punishes your base if you can't handle him, and there are ways to handle him. In this thread alone I think people listed quite a few ways (shooty AND architectural ways) to combat him and you yourself say you know how to handle him. And there are also ways to harden a base against demos. Without demos there is no real necessity for steel, it is not really difficult to make a late game horde base just with concrete. And there is no necessity to make changes to your base in late game unless there is a new unusual (and real!) threat like the demo

 

You say "punish" as if it was a bad thing! But you yourself acknowledge with your own ideas of kamikaze or driller zombie that there needs to be dangers to the walls of your base. Just that, depending on how kamikaze or driller for example are balanced, they don't seem able to put me in front of new problems as a base designer, they in fact seem more about making base design A16-trivial again, i.e. that you just put yourself in a high position where you can see all around you. I may be wrong, this would need playtesting, but I just don't see it. (Before you say the demo neither, sure he does: You can for example design your horde base so you can shoot him in the back or throw him in a pit and throw explosives to actually explode him while far enough away).

 

What do I mean with shooting at a zombie "trivially". Well, just pull the trigger of a fully loaded M60 and point it at the torso of a zombie or group of zombies. What often is also called "spray and pray". I can tell you 2 of my friends in the MP game are happy just pointing at zombies in horde night and just "bury" the zombies in bullets. Naturally they will prioritize a cop for example, but they don't need head shots for a cop when using an M60 (or a shotgun at short range).

 

Notice how the demo is the only zombie where we tell the shotgun guy to not even shoot at it and let the sniper or desert eagle wielder do some work. I also try to build the late game base with "traps" designed for the demo (pits for example), but I can't get my co-players to be organised enough for some of the more complex schemes.

 

On 8/6/2023 at 3:31 PM, RhinoW said:

This is not his "ability", this is artificial difficulty that goes against the main flow of the game,

 

I suppose you mean "artificial" as in artificial in that scenario of a game where the other zombies are maybe magical? Even though the actual reason for the existence of the zombies is still not known. Is that such a big difference for you?

 

On 8/6/2023 at 3:31 PM, RhinoW said:

on a game about unloading lots of ammo on hordes of zombies that are breaking the blocks in your base. 

 

First of all the game is not just about unloading lots of ammo on hordes of zombies. It can be if you want and in a MP game you might not have a choice depending on your co-players 😉(I for example have to play SP for that). But whether you simply mine for ammo and shoot everything that moves or mine for cement and iron and build an intricate base with traps and pits and funnels and secondary positions and alternate positions, that is your decision.

 

Secondly in end game with steel the normal zombies are not able to break the blocks well enough that you would have any problem defending against them even with the simplest designs like square steel blocks to stand on. But this is a balancing act, you can't simply increase block damage as they also can't be too good at breaking blocks, otherwise you would need 2 days every week just repairing your base and new players might not be able to defend against them

 

Now we have seen both designs in previous alphas: We had block-breaking zombies in A16 damaging your base from all sides. They didn't have a chance but you needed days to repair your base as almost all blocks were damaged. Then we had even better block-breaking zombies who knew where to attack in A17 which made the game impossible to play for new players as you needed advanced knowledge about the zombies even in early game to build a working horde base.

And now we probably have the final iteration where the normal zombies have block-breaking on a level that will not overpower new players but we have a special boss, the demo who turns up rather seldom in a night and is actually a danger of breaking your walls, but even when he explodes the damage to your base is not everywhere but in a few specific points you can usually repair in less than a day.

 

This is an advantage that I did not know immediately when the demo was introduced. This came from my experiences after having played with the demo in the game for some time now. And I can say that I don't like the constant guessing which traps can trigger the explosions and which don't in every alpha (something that should be solved by final release). But in general I definitely like the demo, I like it when he appears and I like the challenge of redesigning my base in late game to accomodate for the demo. And I like that there is an enemy that you should not just gun down in continuous fire.

 

Now I listed multiple reasons in this thread why I like the demo and why I think it is good for this game. And considering I have fun with the demo why shouldn't I? But I can accept that you might not like the concept because you have a different way of playing the game and other tastes in respect to realism for example. Sadly your universe ends with everyone not agreeing with you as "people blindly defending it".

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Riamus]

3 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Actually, I have more problems with the radioactive cops than the demolishers. With their spit, they can either damage or destroy blade traps from a distance. And because they explode when they are low on health, they are much more unpredictable than demolishers and explode much more often.

 

I suppose this depends on your design.  A cop won't spit unless it sees you.  If your design leaves you in a place near or in the line of blade traps where it can see you, then sure, that can happen.  If your design keeps you out of sight when the cop is around your blade traps, there isn't any real risk there from the spit.  Spitting vultures are more often an issue for me in my bases, though their height tends to keep them from hitting anything besides walls/ceiling.  As far as exploding, I'd say the chance that they explode is only slightly more than a demo if you're watching for them.  Demos only blow up if you trigger them but cops can blow up just from damage, so there is more chance.  However, cops die so much more easily that they shouldn't blow up very often.  They only really blow up for me if they manage to get around a corner and out of sight when I am shooting them.  So although I'd agree a cop is more annoying than a demo and not as much fun, I don't really consider them any more difficult to deal with beyond them causing me damage from a distance if I'm standing unprotected on the roof of my base while someone else is inside dealing with the ones coming in.  I'll often be unprotected on a roof because I hate shooting through bars since they always seem to get in the way at the worst times and because I can normally keep up with vultures well enough that there's little risk doing so.

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, Riamus said:

I suppose this depends on your design.  A cop won't spit unless it sees you.  If your design leaves you in a place near or in the line of blade traps where it can see you, then sure, that can happen.

Since blade traps need to be repaired very often during the horde, they need to be accessible at least, so it is inevitable that the cops will see me.

An alternative is to have the zombie path between me and the blade traps so that the zombies do not look in the direction of the blade traps. But this has the disadvantage that the blade traps are partly blocked by the piling up zombie corpses.

 

One option that I have to test yet is to redirect the zombies while I repair the blade traps.

 

[Riamus]

19 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Since blade traps need to be repaired very often during the horde, they need to be accessible at least, so it is inevitable that the cops will see me.

An alternative is to have the zombie path between me and the blade traps so that the zombies do not look in the direction of the blade traps. But this has the disadvantage that the blade traps are partly blocked by the piling up zombie corpses.

 

One option that I have to test yet is to redirect the zombies while I repair the blade traps.

 

I never repair them but that's just me.  I place a variety of traps and number of traps that having some stop working in the middle of horde night isn't a big deal.  Others will cover for that. 

[RipClaw]

49 minutes ago, Riamus said:

I never repair them but that's just me.  I place a variety of traps and number of traps that having some stop working in the middle of horde night isn't a big deal.  Others will cover for that. 

With my usual hordes, a blade trap that is not constantly repaired would not last 5 minutes. But since I have so many blade trap bundles from all the infestation quests, I could add some disposable blade traps to my current base and maybe even some dart trap since I also have a lot of dart trap bundles.

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Riamus]

I usually have multiple paths they can get through so they don't all come past individual blade traps.  I also do a lot of long range shooting so a lot of them never even reach my base.

[RhinoW]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Oh thank you for telling me I am **purposefully** dodging your points. You are so charming today 😎. While you at the same time did not react to my argument above why the demo is actually a good design  ( https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/33300-how-do-you-deal-with-demolishers/?do=findComment&comment=535032 ). Yes, he is two steps above all other zombies. Which is exactly how boss enemies are designed in lots of other games. And as I said in that post, he makes sense as a sort of beach head that can create opportunities for the other zombies to reach you.

 

 

Which is, according to my own experience in a 4 player MP game a very possible outcome. I see you finally explain your reasoning instead of expecting us just to swallow it:

 

 

The tower defense part of the game is (or should be) based on you continually improving your base. If you can **easily** build bases say with a field of spike traps around and keep that working even in end game by just upgrading blocks to steel it would be a rather trivial tower defense game. Ever played a tower defense game? It is based on you continually improving and adapting your base to different and stronger enemies. Mechanical spike traps are very basic defense traps for early game, why should they still function for every zombie in end game? 

 

You say it punishes your base, then next paragraph that you have no problem with the demo yourself. So why would he be badly designed when you, an experienced player have obviously found out how to cope with it? Really, the demo only punishes your base if you can't handle him, and there are ways to handle him. In this thread alone I think people listed quite a few ways (shooty AND architectural ways) to combat him and you yourself say you know how to handle him. And there are also ways to harden a base against demos. Without demos there is no real necessity for steel, it is not really difficult to make a late game horde base just with concrete. And there is no necessity to make changes to your base in late game unless there is a new unusual (and real!) threat like the demo

 

You say "punish" as if it was a bad thing! But you yourself acknowledge with your own ideas of kamikaze or driller zombie that there needs to be dangers to the walls of your base. Just that, depending on how kamikaze or driller for example are balanced, they don't seem able to put me in front of new problems as a base designer, they in fact seem more about making base design A16-trivial again, i.e. that you just put yourself in a high position where you can see all around you. I may be wrong, this would need playtesting, but I just don't see it. (Before you say the demo neither, sure he does: You can for example design your horde base so you can shoot him in the back or throw him in a pit and throw explosives to actually explode him while far enough away).

 

What do I mean with shooting at a zombie "trivially". Well, just pull the trigger of a fully loaded M60 and point it at the torso of a zombie or group of zombies. What often is also called "spray and pray". I can tell you 2 of my friends in the MP game are happy just pointing at zombies in horde night and just "bury" the zombies in bullets. Naturally they will prioritize a cop for example, but they don't need head shots for a cop when using an M60 (or a shotgun at short range).

 

Notice how the demo is the only zombie where we tell the shotgun guy to not even shoot at it and let the sniper or desert eagle wielder do some work. I also try to build the late game base with "traps" designed for the demo (pits for example), but I can't get my co-players to be organised enough for some of the more complex schemes.

 

 

I suppose you mean "artificial" as in artificial in that scenario of a game where the other zombies are maybe magical? Even though the actual reason for the existence of the zombies is still not known. Is that such a big difference for you?

 

 

First of all the game is not just about unloading lots of ammo on hordes of zombies. It can be if you want and in a MP game you might not have a choice depending on your co-players 😉(I for example have to play SP for that). But whether you simply mine for ammo and shoot everything that moves or mine for cement and iron and build an intricate base with traps and pits and funnels and secondary positions and alternate positions, that is your decision.

 

Secondly in end game with steel the normal zombies are not able to break the blocks well enough that you would have any problem defending against them even with the simplest designs like square steel blocks to stand on. But this is a balancing act, you can't simply increase block damage as they also can't be too good at breaking blocks, otherwise you would need 2 days every week just repairing your base and new players might not be able to defend against them

 

Now we have seen both designs in previous alphas: We had block-breaking zombies in A16 damaging your base from all sides. They didn't have a chance but you needed days to repair your base as almost all blocks were damaged. Then we had even better block-breaking zombies who knew where to attack in A17 which made the game impossible to play for new players as you needed advanced knowledge about the zombies even in early game to build a working horde base.

And now we probably have the final iteration where the normal zombies have block-breaking on a level that will not overpower new players but we have a special boss, the demo who turns up rather seldom in a night and is actually a danger of breaking your walls, but even when he explodes the damage to your base is not everywhere but in a few specific points you can usually repair in less than a day.

 

This is an advantage that I did not know immediately when the demo was introduced. This came from my experiences after having played with the demo in the game for some time now. And I can say that I don't like the constant guessing which traps can trigger the explosions and which don't in every alpha (something that should be solved by final release). But in general I definitely like the demo, I like it when he appears and I like the challenge of redesigning my base in late game to accomodate for the demo. And I like that there is an enemy that you should not just gun down in continuous fire.

 

Now I listed multiple reasons in this thread why I like the demo and why I think it is good for this game. And considering I have fun with the demo why shouldn't I? But I can accept that you might not like the concept because you have a different way of playing the game and other tastes in respect to realism for example. Sadly your universe ends with everyone not agreeing with you as "people blindly defending it".

 

 

 

 

Yes I have played tower defense games, and you could say I know my way around videogames. I know what good enemy design looks like.

 

Again, I don't have troubles with demolishers, and I am aware of the things you said about him being "a good design", and my apologies if I wasn't clear. That's precisely his problem, its that all his purpose goes away when you pop him from afar, such a big monster taken down with ease, and every other zombie around it. The only times he causes any sort of trouble, is when a turret pops him, which you really have no control over, and it comes off as an annoyance more than anything, it's not like you missplayed and suddenly you lost your traps. With kamikazes, you know they're going to explode, they will explode on contact, they run fast, they're not just 1, they're also not very tanky, but they're fast, and if they reach your walls, its your fault. The demolisher zombie ticks before he explodes, meaning your turret can tap him and he still has time to reach your base with all that health, and you could never really react to that turret tapping him with all the confusion going on in a bloodmoon.

 

Alas, the only "troubles" I've ever had in A21 bloodmoon with demolishers, was a 2 time thing in a total of 62 days, first time out of negligence, we had a wall breached by the zombies and a demolisher entered, and one of my friends missed a shot and he blew up in the middle of our base, taking down a few wire relays but not much. And the second time, it was on the later days, we allowed him to explode and breach a wall.

 

All of this could be avoided if I didn't handicap myself by saying "we don't repair blocks during bloodmoons, only if they're broken". Because zombies still focus on 2 of the most damaged blocks, allowing players to spam repair them, which I didn't want to do this time around. On the other hand, spider zombies and cop zombies, are the only ones that consistently make bloodmoons interesting.

 

As for your spike example, I never said I didn't agree my friend, I really like the fact he stomps spikes. I am totally against an easy bloodmoon, thought that was obvious from the start. My issue, is that the demolisher doesn't consistently make the bloodmoon hard/interesting, unlike cops and spider zombies (mostly cops). He is just annoying when he explodes, not because I care about my walls being breached (I'm running parkour and run and gun, killing zombies on an open field is my comfort zone), but because currently explosions damage electrical components through walls. I can't tell you how many times cops sniped my spotlights or turrets and I'm forced to take them down or bait their shots, but that is dynamic and interesting, and also makes sense (you can see the windup, you can see the projectile, you can move away from your turrets, you can place your turrets behind cover, you can stun the cops before they puke..etc).

 

The demolisher falls flat on its face, simply because, unlike the other 2 special infected, his ability is not a consistent threat, or even an ability for that matter. Even if you do activate his explosion, you have time to gun him down, even when he's ticking (but you gotta be focus firing him from the start of course).

I said I like the that he is a big boy, but there is so much emphasis on his explosion, when its really just a random occurence that in this day and age of 7 days to die, is not even a big deal when you have so many resources and ammo, making it another bullet sponge (which I don't mind, but then again, it brings nothing to the table unlike the other 2). Demolisher is simply a newbie killer, by the time he shows up, he's not really a threat. I always take over a POI for my bases, and this last time we used a military checkpoint, meaning, concrete walls, catwalks, spotlights, single spike row around the base, nothing too strong, mostly just realistic. So imagine if we actually tried to make a proper bloodmoon base to abuse the zombies, or had a separate one with no regard to damages because f*ck aesthetics for that one.

 

Hence why I said, I would much prefer more zombie types, that swarm your base with different effects and abilities, and force you to pick VIPs and rethink weaknesses of your base based on what you have placed there. The demolisher is simply an overtuned normal zombie (which is perfectly fine), but somehow is a "special infected" because he can explode by getting shot in the wrong place? He could be a brute/bruiser, and have AoE on his normal swipes, dealing 500 per hit, on a wider block radius, that would be much more interesting and consistent, and also allow more to spawn.

 

And when I meant artificial difficulty, I mean that its just something they shoehorned in to give you some difficulty. I mean c'mon, it's obvious this design wasn't really thought through, his visuals make no sense and like I've said before, he's just a normal overtuned zombie that "might" explode. I would much prefer normal zombies to have explosive variants, rather than the whole personality of a custom modeled tanky zombie to be that he shines and explodes by the players demand (how many people actually know he can stomp spikes, I didn't until I started modding 7days lmao).

 

Right now, we only have 2 zombies (3 if you count the demolisher :P) that make the bloodmoon somewhat interesting and dynamic.

 

Demolisher: Heavy breacher, minibosss, really dangerous to walls (should you focus on his physical aptitude and less on his explosion)

Cop: Sniper/Breacher, takes out turrets and spotlights from afar

Spider zombie: Jumps over defenses and forces you to either build a higher wall, or cage yourself to avoid it.

 

Honorable mention: Vultures, as they force to put sky coverage on your catwalks/platforms.

 

In the end, I would much prefer if they doubled down on the demolisher's physical attacks and make him a force to be reckoned with, with no cheap way of killing him, and also no cheap way of getting stuff blown up by things you sometimes don't have control over. I will note however, I do like that he makes explosives a danger to work with, but his weakness is still the same if you willingly pop it from afar, no explosives needed 😕 

 

In hindsight, it would be really nice to have those kamikazes have this particular strength. They won't pop from shots, but they will from explosions. Considering their faster movement and higher spawnrates, not being minibosses, it would be a good trade off (1 explosive for 1 explosive zombie).

 

Also I lose my track when writting really fast, so if I didn't mention some things, it's quite common whenever I'm brainstorming or discussing a topic. I automatically assume people understand what I mean with some things, when I should've been more specific. My bad for that.