Shotgun slugs feel unbalanced now with b323

[FranticDan]

Only the Pipe and Double Barrel shotguns feel balanced now when using slugs. Pump shotgun and Auto get damage nerf with slugs.

Q6 Pipe shotgun, no mods
- Shells - 10.1 x 10 (100 damage)
- Slugs - 125 damage

With 3 mods
- Shells - 12.5 x 10 (120 damage)
- Slugs - 155 damage

Q6 Double barrel, no mods
- Shells - 13.8 x 10 damage (130 damage)
- Slugs - 128 damage

With 4 mods
- Shells - 18.3 x 10 (180 damage)
- Slugs - 170 damage


Ok, slugs lose power from now on (comparatively)

Q6 Pump Shotgun - no mods
- Shells - 18.8 x 10 (180 damage)
- Slugs -  133 damage

With 4 mods
- Shells - 24.8 x 10 (240 damage)
- Slugs - 176 damage

Q6 Auto Shotgun, no mods
- Shells - 25 x 10 (250 damage)
- Slugs - 139 damage

With 4 mods
- Shells - 33 x 10 (330 damage)
- Slugs - 184 damage

[Scyris]

Your forgtting slugs also penetrate thru up to 2 additional targets, as well as have farther range (effective range is 9, max range of 18, while buckshot is 4 effective, 10 max), and also are armor piercing, they also lack the armor BUFF they give enemies that buckshot does (which is why buckshot is pretty useless vs soliders and demos).

 

If your using slugs on a single zombie that isin't at least a soldier or demo, or isin't a group of 2 or more, your actually being very inefficent with that ammo. Because it'd be better to use buckshot. Slugs armor penetration thing does nothing if the zombie has no armor to penetrate, which means its pointless vs most of the zombies in the game other than the 2 I mentioned unless your using it to attack a group of them or at least 2 at once. Utility and bikers have armor but I think its 20, so AP ammo lowers that to 10, 10% more damage.

 

You could also see the balance like this: Buckshot=for single unarmored zombies (to put it simple, any zombie other than soldiers and demolishers), Slugs= for soldiers and demolishers, OR packs of any zombie as it can hit 3 in a line.

 

Slugs basically trade raw damage for Armor Penetration and Entity Penetration and a bit over double the range.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Scyris (see edit history)

[FranticDan]

21 minutes ago, Scyris said:

Your forgtting slugs also penetrate thru up to 2 additional targets, as well as have farther range (effective range is 9, max range of 18, while buckshot is 4 effective, 10 max), and also are armor piercing, they also lack the armor BUFF they give enemies that buckshot does (which is why buckshot is pretty useless vs soliders and demos).

 

If your using slugs on a single zombie that isin't at least a soldier or demo, or isin't a group of 2 or more, your actually being very inefficent with that ammo. Because it'd be better to use buckshot. Slugs armor penetration thing does nothing if the zombie has no armor to penetrate, which means its pointless vs most of the zombies in the game other than the 2 I mentioned unless your using it to attack a group of them or at least 2 at once. Utility and bikers have armor but I think its 20, so AP ammo lowers that to 10, 10% more damage.

 

You could also see the balance like this: Buckshot=for single unarmored zombies (to put it simple, any zombie other than soldiers and demolishers), Slugs= for soldiers and demolishers, OR packs of any zombie as it can hit 3 in a line.

 

Slugs basically trade raw damage for Armor Penetration and Entity Penetration and a bit over double the range.

1) Regular shells have the same penetration as slugs
2) Shells don't increase target armour anymore (removed in A20 I think)
3) Only the soldier and demo has significant armour, 50 and 60. Shells do more damage to a soldier (165) while slugs deal only 138 with a Q6 fully modded auto shotgun

Edited June 29, 2023 by FranticDan (see edit history)

[Scyris]

6 minutes ago, FranticDan said:

1) Regular shells have the same penetration as slugs
2) Shells don't increase target armour anymore (removed in A20 I think)
3) Only the soldier and demo has significant armour, 50 and 60. Shells do more damage to a soldier (165) while slugs deal only 138 with a Q6 fully modded auto shotgun

 

I just checked the xml's and since when did shotgun shells penetrate thru 2 targets like slugs do? or have I just not played vanilla in so long I didn't know that?. Yeah I could see why slugs are weaker, the only advantage they have is Armor pen vs the 2 zombies types its useful against and better range.

 

Maybe I need to play vanilla more... I mostly play modded. Had no idea about the shotgun shell changes.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Scyris (see edit history)

[FranticDan]

2 minutes ago, Scyris said:

 

I just checked the xml's and since when did shotgun shells penetrate thru 2 targets like slugs do? or have I just not played vanilla in so long I didn't know that?. Yeah I could see why slugs are weaker, the only advantage they have is Armor pen vs the 2 zombies types its useful against and better range.

 

Maybe I need to play vanilla more... I mostly play modded.

I think around A19, maybe even 18. It's been a couple of years at the very least since shells can hit up to 3 zombies

[Scyris]

1 minute ago, FranticDan said:

I think around A19, maybe even 18. It's been a couple of years at the very least since shells can hit up to 3 zombies

 

Yeah I need to play vanilla more, I didn't even know about that. Welp, Glad I run a str build by default then as shotgun is in there.

[Gr.o.m.]

Are you REALLY complaining about something, that might be a nerv to shotguns.

IMHO the most imbalanced and best weapon in 7dtd. If you use any kind of shotgun, you get the best damageoutput per ammo combined with the best kind of crowdcontrol (slowing effect) AND in case of the autoshotgun you can get compared with the rate of fire the biggest ammocapacity.

 

Try to use any kind of pistol or the SMG. If the pimps nerv shotguns down to the level of agility wepons, than it is time to complain about brutal nervs.

[FranticDan]

23 minutes ago, Gr.o.m. said:

Are you REALLY complaining about something, that might be a nerv to shotguns.

IMHO the most imbalanced and best weapon in 7dtd. If you use any kind of shotgun, you get the best damageoutput per ammo combined with the best kind of crowdcontrol (slowing effect) AND in case of the autoshotgun you can get compared with the rate of fire the biggest ammocapacity.

 

Try to use any kind of pistol or the SMG. If the pimps nerv shotguns down to the level of agility wepons, than it is time to complain about brutal nervs.

I'm saying, with the Pump and Auto shotguns, slugs are completely redundant. If anything, Auto got a MASSIVE buff in b323.
Either shells need a nerf, or slugs need a buff. Or a bit of both.

Shells should NOT be doing MORE damage to a soldier than slugs

[theFlu]

2 hours ago, FranticDan said:

shells can hit up to 3 zombies

I don't really doubt you, you're usually more on point than most.. but since I've assumed otherwise, I have to ask:

 

Is that "actual" penetration, each pellet hitting several targets, or just first X pellets killing the first target and the rest skipping thru the dead zed(s)?

 

I've gotten plenty multiple-headsplosions with shotties, I even aim for them - but I've always thought it's just the "rest" of the pellets finding the next target.

[FranticDan]

3 minutes ago, theFlu said:

I don't really doubt you, you're usually more on point than most.. but since I've assumed otherwise, I have to ask:

 

Is that "actual" penetration, each pellet hitting several targets, or just first X pellets killing the first target and the rest skipping thru the dead zed(s)?

 

I've gotten plenty multiple-headsplosions with shotties, I even aim for them - but I've always thought it's just the "rest" of the pellets finding the next target.

It's all 10. Aiming center of mass, you'll hit multiple zombies behind the front zombie

        <passive_effect name="RoundRayCount" operation="base_set" value="10" tags="perkBoomstick"/>
        <passive_effect name="EntityPenetrationCount" operation="base_set" value="2" tags="perkBoomstick"/>

[theFlu]

5 minutes ago, FranticDan said:

It's all 10. Aiming center of mass, you'll hit multiple zombies behind the front zombie

Well, I'll be Dan'd .. thanks

 

(Birdshot is so well known for its penetrating ability, that you might pardon my mistake )

[Gr.o.m.]

2 hours ago, FranticDan said:

I'm saying, with the Pump and Auto shotguns, slugs are completely redundant. If anything, Auto got a MASSIVE buff in b323.
Either shells need a nerf, or slugs need a buff. Or a bit of both.

Shells should NOT be doing MORE damage to a soldier than slugs

I am with you in so far, that slugs need more resources and should be the better kind of ammo.

[Jugginator]

Don't forget the slugs have more range and further damage falloff range.

[BFT2020]

As Jugginator stated, you are only comparing one part of the ammo:

 

• At close range, shot is going to be devastating but damage falls off after a range of 4 and ineffective beyond 10
• Slugs don't lose any damage until after a range of 9 and are effective up to a range of 18

There is nothing wrong with shot getting more damage output at very close range because slugs you can engage the target further away than shot can.  If you only fire at targets close to you (4 or less), then use shot.

 

It would be interesting to see how the damage falls off after 4 and compare it to the slugs.  We do know that from 11-18 (range), shot has zero damage while you are still damaging your target with the slugs.

 

In addition, how much spread are you getting the further away from the target you are?  In your analysis, you are assuming you are getting hits with all 10 pellets each time you fire.  Closer to the target, it is going to be larger so the spread won't matter as much.  But the further away you are from the target, it gets smaller while the pellets spread increases.  For each pellet that fails to strike the target, you lose 10% damage.  Compared to the slug, you always get 100% damage for each hit.

 

At further ranges, you are more likely to get more damage with slugs if you are going for a headshot.  The pellets of shot will spread, giving you a situation where some hit the head, some hit the rest of the target, and some will miss completely.

 

[FranticDan]

20 minutes ago, Jugginator said:

Don't forget the slugs have more range and further damage falloff range.

I'll happily stick to shells that deal 80 damage to a soldier (body shot) on insane with a fully modded Q6 Auto with no perks, than slugs that only deal 69 dmg to the same target with the same weapon.

Before b323, shells and slugs did almost the same damage with all 4 shotguns. But now the damage gap between shells and slugs fall off with the Pumpy and falls even further with the Auto *shrug*

[theFlu]

5 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

For each pellet that fails to strike the target, you lose 10% damage.  Compared to the slug, you always get 100% damage for each hit.

Each pellet missed is 10%, each slug missed is 100%. If you're 100% sure of a slug hit, you'll get .. 100% pellet coverage, 90% of the time and about 50% coverage for the rest (as a really crude guesstimate)

[FranticDan]

5 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

As Jugginator stated, you are only comparing one part of the ammo:

 

• At close range, shot is going to be devastating but damage falls off after a range of 4 and ineffective beyond 10
• Slugs don't lose any damage until after a range of 9 and are effective up to a range of 18

There is nothing wrong with shot getting more damage output at very close range because slugs you can engage the target further away than shot can.  If you only fire at targets close to you (4 or less), then use shot.

 

It would be interesting to see how the damage falls off after 4 and compare it to the slugs.  We do know that from 11-18 (range), shot has zero damage while you are still damaging your target with the slugs.

 

In addition, how much spread are you getting the further away from the target you are?  In your analysis, you are assuming you are getting hits with all 10 pellets each time you fire.  Closer to the target, it is going to be larger so the spread won't matter as much.  But the further away you are from the target, it gets smaller while the pellets spread increases.  For each pellet that fails to strike the target, you lose 10% damage.  Compared to the slug, you always get 100% damage for each hit.

 

At further ranges, you are more likely to get more damage with slugs if you are going for a headshot.  The pellets of shot will spread, giving you a situation where some hit the head, some hit the rest of the target, and some will miss completely.

 

I see your point, though as I stated above (didn't see your post before my previous message) Shells and slugs used to do almost the same damage before the recent update. Now the damage gap between the two ammo types gets bigger with each higher tier shotgun.

 

[BFT2020]

55 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Each pellet missed is 10%, each slug missed is 100%. If you're 100% sure of a slug hit, you'll get .. 100% pellet coverage, 90% of the time and about 50% coverage for the rest (as a really crude guesstimate)

 

That's true for any single shot weapon out there.  Each shot missed is 0% damage to target.  Not saying shot doesn't have its uses, I use it the most as I find it more than anything else, and it is great on horde night when they bunch up close to me.  But if I am doing some looting / questing and I have slug ammo, I will generally load it and use it in those circumstances as I have more versatility with it than the shot.

 

And I noted in my post that if you are constantly engaging your targets within a range of 4 then shot wins hands down.  But if you are like me and will engage the target 10+ out with a shotgun, then slugs are your only option.

[theFlu]

3 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

And I noted in my post that if you are constantly engaging your targets within a range of 4 then shot wins hands down.  But if you are like me and will engage the target 10+ out with a shotgun, then slugs are your only option.

I don't disagree with your overall point, "slugs have their use at range"; I just felt that counting lost damage for buckshot is a little bit disingenuous if Not counting miss chance for slugs - the spread is pretty much the same.

 

For our difference, I don't really prep for fights at 10+ meter range; if I have that much space, the target isn't really a threat, usually ..

[BFT2020]

15 minutes ago, theFlu said:

I don't disagree with your overall point, "slugs have their use at range"; I just felt that counting lost damage for buckshot is a little bit disingenuous if Not counting miss chance for slugs - the spread is pretty much the same.

 

True, but I did account for it in my statement 

 

Quote

Compared to the slug, you always get 100% damage for each hit

 

If I wasn't, I wouldn't have put the "for each hit" disclaimer in my sentence  😉

 

It's also why I didn't state a number of missed pellets for each shot, as they can be variable depending on the person, how quickly you have to line up the shot, etc.

17 minutes ago, theFlu said:

For our difference, I don't really prep for fights at 10+ meter range; if I have that much space, the target isn't really a threat, usually ..

 

I usually play Feral Sense on all the time, so even threats out that far, they will eventually become one.  This way I can engage them further out and pull them in, and any more in the general vicinity.  I like to clear out the areas around me prior to going into tight corners so slugs / range means I can get both the damage dealt and start pulling in all the stragglers.  That's assuming I am not using my bow instead, but that doesn't do a good job of pulling in zombies like a shotgun blast does.

 

And it is great when you are up high and shooting downward at zombies beating on walls where you are hold up in.  Regular zombies not too worried about, but I can thin out any ferals before I make my escape.

 

I don't mass produce slugs, as I use it in specific conditions. 

 

As for comparing to shot, I don't think a baseline damage boost is warranted.  Maybe boosting armor penetration would be better so it is more in lined to handling armored targets so against those, it has higher damage output, but still worse against softer targets.

[Kosmic Kerman]

I don’t know what the correct solution is from a balance perspective (increased base damage or increased armor reduction) but I would agree that slugs should not do less damage to a heavily armed target. Who know why this happened but I’m assuming it has something to do with the changes to mod slots and damage added from mods in the most recent release. 

[FranticDan]

5 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

I don’t know what the correct solution is from a balance perspective (increased base damage or increased armor reduction) but I would agree that slugs should not do less damage to a heavily armed target. Who know why this happened but I’m assuming it has something to do with the changes to mod slots and damage added from mods in the most recent release. 

It's due to the buff that Pumpy and Auto got in b323. Shells got buffed x10 (1 for each pellet) while slugs only got a 1x buff.

Example: Pumpy got a +5 damage buff, so shells do 50 more damage while slugs only do 5 more damage. Auto got a +10 damage buff. Basically, the bigger the buff, the more damage gap between the two ammo types. Auto with slugs does about 44% LESS damage than shells.

The opposite is also true. The Pipe shotgun with slugs is devastating doing 25% MORE damage than shells

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:

If I wasn't, I wouldn't have put the "for each hit" disclaimer in my sentence  😉

Yeh, I guess it's technically correct, which is the best way of correct of course. But, did you know, saturated fat may decrease your chance of a heart attack.

 

As for Feral Sense; I don't use it that often, it feels mostly a little artificial. More zeds on occasion, but it doesn't really make the game more interesting, just more strenuous.. or something. When I do, I still stick to a good bow (mostly), or crossbow or a rifle for anything outside "half a room", those things can at least hit reliably. If I'm maining a shotty, I'll just run close enough to hit

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, FranticDan said:

It's due to the buff that Pumpy and Auto got in b323. Shells got buffed x10 (1 for each pellet) while slugs only got a 1x buff.

Example: Pumpy got a +5 damage buff, so shells do 50 more damage while slugs only do 5 more damage. Auto got a +10 damage buff. Basically, the bigger the buff, the more damage gap between the two ammo types. Auto with slugs does about 44% LESS damage than shells.

The opposite is also true. The Pipe shotgun with slugs is devastating doing 25% MORE damage than shells

 

It's probably something of an oversight now that I think of it.  Before, double, pump, and auto didn't have a boost so there wasn't a reason to look at the code.  Now that they added the boost, it gets added disproportionately on the ammo.  Since they didn't do it before, there was no need to add a special tag to distinguish the difference.

 

They probably need to add additional code so slugs get the entire boost per shot (so 5 on pump) while the shot gets 1/10 of that per pellet.

 

20 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Yeh, I guess it's technically correct, which is the best way of correct of course. But, did you know, saturated fat may decrease your chance of a heart attack.

 

That's me just trolling you at this point.  😏

[theFlu]

36 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

That's me just trolling you at this point.  😏

Indeed; my dietary "may" -statement may not have been an implicit acknowledgement of the possibility..