Sleepers even worse now.

[hiemfire]

2 minutes ago, david01228 said:

This was how it was in A20. in 21, as my video shows, there is no dice roll. I have hit those 2 spawn points 10 times now, trying different ways to get them to not wake up, and they are always spawned in awake and seeking, no dice roll involved.

It is the same exact rendition of the mechanic as A20, a rng check to detect on spawn in. If the check results in them failing to detect you when they are spawned in they seek out the trigger point, the point where you crossed into the volume, and muddle around there. If they gain LOS to you while enroute to the trigger point then they detect you regardless. A few seconds after they reach the trigger point they revert back to the detection rules for normal sleeping/wandering zombies.

 

The POI designer setup the first and third trigger points shown in your vid so that you had no escape option. The first one dropped a swarm tracking in from outside of the entrance to the building and going for the trigger point in addition to the ones in "front" of you through the door you opened and behind the door in adjacent wall (with the door you opened left closed instead and without the swarm of ferals coming in from outside you might have been able to evade). The second trigger point you might have been able to duck back down around the stairs. The third dumped them effectively right on top of you with direct los... 1 and 3 completely  bypassed the "dice roll" to detect you on spawn that was implemented in A20.

[david01228]

19 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

It is the same exact rendition of the mechanic as A20, a rng check to detect on spawn in. If the check results in them failing to detect you when they are spawned in they seek out the trigger point, the point where you crossed into the volume, and muddle around there. If they gain LOS to you while enroute to the trigger point then they detect you regardless. A few seconds after they reach the trigger point they revert back to the detection rules for normal sleeping/wandering zombies.

 

The POI designer setup the first and third trigger points shown in your vid so that you had no escape option. The first one dropped a swarm tracking in from outside of the entrance to the building and going for the trigger point in addition to the ones in "front" of you through the door you opened and behind the door in adjacent wall (with the door you opened left closed instead and without the swarm of ferals coming in from outside you might have been able to evade). The second trigger point you might have been able to duck back down around the stairs. The third dumped them effectively right on top of you with direct los... 1 and 3 completely  bypassed the "dice roll" to detect you on spawn that was implemented in A20.

If the zombies spawn in awake and seeking a "target point" then they are not sleepers, and it is not a dice roll anymore. Furthermore if you cannot spawn them in this new awakened state without them INSTANTLY having LOS on you, it still proves my point that stealth is greatly diminished. For the record, at no point in A20 did I have a trigger point where the zombes would awake that I could not in some way kill them PRIOR to crossing that point. If you want to see how the "dice roll" system DID work in A20, go to Dishong Tower, go up to the pool level (6 i think?) and clear it from the elevator shaft to the stairwell like you are supposed to while being stealthed. There are 2 decent dice roll points on that floor, so it is a good show. then go up 1 more floor to see how the trap system made sense before, by having an OBVIOUS trap room that still could kill you by triggering the trap (almost impossible to actually kill all the zombies without triggering some of them awake because of the noise made by breaking floors, but in theory still possible because the zombies are in the world asleep).

[hiemfire]

2 hours ago, david01228 said:

Furthermore if you cannot spawn them in this new awakened state without them INSTANTLY having LOS on you, it still proves my point that stealth is greatly diminished.

We are 100% in agreement here. TFP's desire to force engagements has been an issue since they added the original "attack" volumes, which was before I started playing iirc.

 

2 hours ago, david01228 said:

For the record, at no point in A20 did I have a trigger point where the zombes would awake that I could not in some way kill them PRIOR to crossing that point.

/shrug The new rendition of the attack volume mechanic only got implemented towards the tail end of experimental iirc so the POI designers didn't have as much of a chance to make use of it in their designs. In effect they designed for the A19ish system and then how the volumes function changed on them after they'd finished making them. From what I saw in recordings of tests done during my forced break from the game (power supply on my PC died just before A20 dropped, waiting on A21 to go stable before maybe jumping back in, if they fix the damn lighting system so it doesn't give me a migraine from eye strain), and what was dug out of the xmls during that time and discussed here the proportion of POIs with the trigger volumes quadrupled from about 20% of them having attack volumes to 80% of them having this current rendition. From the looks of it there also weren't as many of the trigger volumes per POI in A20 that did have them as there are now in A21. Likely because TFP had the POI rework planned for this alpha. Custom POIs designers on the other hand had a field day with it during A20.

 

Edit: Spawn Volume and Trigger volume also don't have to be the same volume and there can be multiple spawn volumes per trigger volume now. I think that functionality was added in A20, it's similar to how the key/button activated doors in POIs work..

Edited June 19, 2023 by hiemfire (see edit history)

[Scyris]

Other than stealth I have another issue with the sleepers in general, why are they almost always perfectly hidden behind things? usually in a way that there is virtually no way to get LoS on them for a shot. Walk into a room, you see nothing, second you walk in you see 4 zombies all walk out from behind a block/obstruction, this annoys me more than anything as not only does it mess up stealth, it also feels artifical as hell and completly ruins any sort of immersion. in A16.4 for example the sleepers were in random spots in each poi's sleeper volume, usually in the open as the zombie just went into dormant mode where ever it was last, which makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why they would all go behind something to hide than go dormant. I feel it was a change just like the Ambush volumes (aka attack volumes) just to screw stealth playstyle over. Which btw, Stealth playstyle already cleared poi's far slower than just running in shooting, the tradeoff was it was safer. Now a days? there is basically no real benefit to a stealth playstyle anymore due to all the steps TFP has taken to make it non-viable. At this point they might as well remove the stealth skills entirely as they are mostly useless inside the main place you'd wanna use them which is when exploring a poi.

[boban]

5 hours ago, Scyris said:

why are they almost always perfectly hidden behind things?

 

Or hidden in ceilings, or hidden in close closet that they themselves cannot open the door to get into.

 

5 hours ago, Scyris said:

Which btw, Stealth playstyle already cleared poi's far slower than just running in shooting, the tradeoff was it was safer.

 

Yes, and required greater care and possibly greater investment in skills as you had 2 additional skills to spec into.

---

 

I just guess they like the jump scares and linear gameplay in one or two specific ways too much for stealth to be viable option...

[theFlu]

13 hours ago, hiemfire said:

If the check results in them failing to detect you when they are spawned in they seek out the trigger point, the point where you crossed into the volume, and muddle around there. If they gain LOS to you while enroute to the trigger point then they detect you regardless.

After some quite extensive testing in A20 and earlier, this seems wrong to me.

 

Minor: The zeds are spawned in at some point; but it's not tied to any check in and of itself. If there's few zombies loaded in the world, they're loaded while you approach the volume. If the world is sort of full with spawns already, they're loaded in only when you (nearly) enter the volume. The latter is often the case, making it look like they're loaded exactly upon entering.

 

Major: The detection check when you cross the volume boundary has exactly two possible outcomes:

- the zeds continue sleeping OR

- the zeds target (Attack-Target) the PLAYER who crossed the threshold

 

Even if some unnamed mod kept repeating that the zeds will just walk to a spot nearby, I have Never managed to repeat that. Trust me, I've tried.

 

There's couple ways to get something akin that;

You succeed the volume-check, and the zeds keep sleeping. Afterwards, you wake them with a sound and then leg it.

You fail the volume-check and the zeds zoom in on you. You show yourself to the zeds (which reverts them back to normal agro mechanics) and then you leg it behind a corner / hide in the darkness at night.

 

I can reliably do either of the above, never have I ever managed to get volume-triggered zeds to just "walk to a spot".

[hiemfire]

3 hours ago, theFlu said:

Major: The detection check when you cross the volume boundary has exactly two possible outcomes:

- the zeds continue sleeping OR

- the zeds target (Attack-Target) the PLAYER who crossed the threshold

 

Even if some unnamed mod kept repeating that the zeds will just walk to a spot nearby, I have Never managed to repeat that. Trust me, I've tried.

I could have sworn Boidster tested it as well and them going to the trigger point was how the zombies' check failure panned out. @%$#... That would make what @david01228's vid shows an even more bull@%$# reversion to straight up attack volumes with multiple spawn volumes per trigger volume woven in.

[theFlu]

13 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

shows an even more bull@%$# reversion to straight up attack volumes with multiple spawn volumes per trigger volume woven in.

Yeah, that's what it looks to me. One large volume, triggered all at once - or maybe separate ones bound to same trigger, doesn't really matter which. Set up so that one side runs to cut off your exit while the other "distracts"..

 

I've seen a small version of the same myself, narrow corridor, splits into two, you take either of the paths, zeds in the other wake up and walk behind you... luckily I smelled a rat when I saw the split and intentionally agroed and legged it straight after; still had to knock down the first of the other pack to avoid it.

 

Sadly it seems like a design decision for the new POIs..

[Javabean867]

So i have tested out my stealth build a little more thoroughly.  Stealth boots, padded armor everywhere else.  and 3 points into the stealth improvement perk.

 

I went through the  apartment complex with basically 0 issues.  There are 2 places that had zambees attack without them 'noticing me'  1 when you go down those stairs on the outside, i had a bunch of zambees, but not all of them become aware of me.  and the other time in the construction level a bunch activated.  Again not all of them.  i was careful, looked in everyplace i zambee could be hiding, and knew where the trick ceilings were, so i broke those out ahead of time.

 

The roof was boring honestly.  i did it during the day time and killed all of the zambees without waking them up.  I was bit cavalier with the ones by the radio tower section of the roof.  i killed them out of stealth, but i have no doubt i could have done it in stealth.

My personal head cannon is that sometimes you turn a corner and a zambee is staring you in the face, like any good horror movie.  you have a jump scare, you a frantic skirmish and then you move on.

[Gideon]

Strange that I don't have an issue using stealth.

[theFlu]

21 minutes ago, Gideon said:

Strange that I don't have an issue using stealth.

 

Me neither, when it works. How do you reckon stealthing the lobby shown by david above would go?

 

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/32123-sleepers-even-worse-now/?do=findComment&comment=524448

[david01228]

8 hours ago, Javabean867 said:

So i have tested out my stealth build a little more thoroughly.  Stealth boots, padded armor everywhere else.  and 3 points into the stealth improvement perk.

 

I went through the  apartment complex with basically 0 issues.  There are 2 places that had zambees attack without them 'noticing me'  1 when you go down those stairs on the outside, i had a bunch of zambees, but not all of them become aware of me.  and the other time in the construction level a bunch activated.  Again not all of them.  i was careful, looked in everyplace i zambee could be hiding, and knew where the trick ceilings were, so i broke those out ahead of time.

 

The roof was boring honestly.  i did it during the day time and killed all of the zambees without waking them up.  I was bit cavalier with the ones by the radio tower section of the roof.  i killed them out of stealth, but i have no doubt i could have done it in stealth.

My personal head cannon is that sometimes you turn a corner and a zambee is staring you in the face, like any good horror movie.  you have a jump scare, you a frantic skirmish and then you move on.

So, if it was a POI from A20, they really didnt add any extra triggers in the normal clears and you will only hit the "insta-wake" triggers when doing infested clears on those ones. but if you go into new T4 and T5 POIS, you will see it

[Soulbreeze]

Did my first Tier 4 last night. Don't remember which POI it was, but I entered a room, looked around my entry point, walked in a little further and got smacked in the back from a zombie that had just spawned in the corner behind me I was just looking at. Looked up around where he came from to see if he broke out of something or fell off a vent or something. Nothing there at all. He just popped in to try to block me from going back the way I came. That stuff is annoying! Made me feel like I should just sprint through everything. Not the first time this has happened so far in A21 (Having a Z spawn in an area I just checked that wasn't hidden by terrain).

[Gideon]

On 6/21/2023 at 8:46 AM, theFlu said:

 

Me neither, when it works. How do you reckon stealthing the lobby shown by david above would go?

 

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/32123-sleepers-even-worse-now/?do=findComment&comment=524448

True, it doesn't seem to work all the time. There are definitely zombie pop-ins that seem to be designed to home in on you regardless of stealth. I find it very cheesy.

[Jugginator]

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but investing in stealth does allow you to hide and make the zombies lose track of you, allowing you to get that stealth hit in. It takes a little practice -sometimes with a bit of nerves of steel -  but most cases you can do this pretty quickly. It's honestly borderline OP once you've perked quite a bit into it/have some books read.

[BFT2020]

6 hours ago, Jugginator said:

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but investing in stealth does allow you to hide and make the zombies lose track of you, allowing you to get that stealth hit in. It takes a little practice -sometimes with a bit of nerves of steel -  but most cases you can do this pretty quickly. It's honestly borderline OP once you've perked quite a bit into it/have some books read.

I do that all the time, backtracking until I find a nice place to hide….though you can’t just run all the way as you are making noise the entire time.

 

Having the books to sneak run and no trash noise helps greatly

 

Current playthrough I am at perk 3 for both hidden strike and shadows

[NekoPawtato]

7 hours ago, Jugginator said:

investing in stealth does allow you to hide and make the zombies lose track of you

Is there something I'm missing then in david's example? (Or am I hiding wrong?) The POI in his video (prison_02) in the first area where zombies come in from outside doesn't allow you to run and hide anywhere outside of the building without running past a mob of zombies first. I've tried hiding inside using a room nearby or a corner and they still find me, even when my stealth meter doesn't get any higher than 15 (and I'm also doing this at night).

 

I even tried covering all the windows/glass that goes outside with frame blocks to obscure their vision, but the AI still tells me they found me because they "saw" me

example: https://imgur.com/a/mPb9Xd8

 

this is with maxed from the shadows, full lv 5 military armor (using military stealth boots) all equipped with advanced muffled connectors and also reading relevant urban combat/night stalker books related to stealth and sneaking

 

his post for reference:

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by NekoPawtato (see edit history)

[Jugginator]

6 hours ago, NekoPawtato said:

Is there something I'm missing then in david's example? (Or am I hiding wrong?) The POI in his video (prison_02) in the first area where zombies come in from outside doesn't allow you to run and hide anywhere outside of the building without running past a mob of zombies first. I've tried hiding inside using a room nearby or a corner and they still find me, even when my stealth meter doesn't get any higher than 15 (and I'm also doing this at night).

 

I even tried covering all the windows/glass that goes outside with frame blocks to obscure their vision, but the AI still tells me they found me because they "saw" me

example: https://imgur.com/a/mPb9Xd8

 

this is with maxed from the shadows, full lv 5 military armor (using military stealth boots) all equipped with advanced muffled connectors and also reading relevant urban combat/night stalker books related to stealth and sneaking

 

his post for reference:

 

 

There's something this example is missing: the breadcrumb trail (so it's called, good description anyway). So, if you just stand there like that then yes you'll be busted. What you'd need to do in that case is fallback to a room away from them, going back into sneak mode before you hit the corner and break line of sight, then shimmy your way into a dark spot and be still. They will likely still home into the last spot they saw you at (likely the doorway), but if you've done it correctly they should lose you. You just need enough time to hit the counter for them to lose track of you.

 

There have been cases on some places where I just move a few feet away while stealthed and stand there and they lose track. Stealth was never meant to be a "press crouch to be invisible", it would defeat any difficulty the game has.

[Jugginator]

Here's a case of this in a game, I wasn't sure where the example was but I went to a prison and did an example. Didn't feel like making a gif out of it sorry (and usually my gifs come out low quality lol), I ended the video a bit too short so I took another quick shot of me sitting there in stealth with a pile of zombies in front of my face and they didn't see me. Eventually, they would have wandered away.

 

First:

Second:

 

Stealth is possible in these cases, you just have to work a little bit with some clever tactics

Edited June 24, 2023 by Jugginator (see edit history)

[NekoPawtato]

17 minutes ago, Jugginator said:

Here's a case of this in a game, I wasn't sure where the example was but I went to a prison and did an example. Didn't feel like making a gif out of it sorry (and usually my gifs come out low quality lol), I ended the video a bit too short so I took another quick shot of me sitting there in stealth with a pile of zombies in front of my face and they didn't see me. Eventually, they would have wandered away.

 

First:

Second:

 

Stealth is possible in these cases, you just have to work a little bit with some clever tactics

Thanks for the examples! The one I was particularly trying to get to work is the first room the player enters if following the "path" of the game (i.e. the closest entrance from the quest marker)

 

I tried to get "creative" by making my own "room" in sort of a spiral shape right outside where the trigger is, but I haven't been able to get it to work. I have tried standing up and running around for a second or two before crouch sprinting into my "room" but they still seem to be able to find me. I even tried standing up again and then quickly crouching to see if it would help. In my later examples I even blocked off the bathroom just so I could focus on the behavior of the zombies from outside (and hopefully give them more time to "lose" my trail).

 

example 1: https://imgur.com/a/gBJF2rp

example 2: https://imgur.com/a/1Nuewr1

example 3: https://imgur.com/a/C7E0tIc

 

If the problem here is that I am not giving the zombies enough time to "lose" my trail, then I believe this could be an issue with how the POI is set up. Since this is the first area the players encounter, there are no other "rooms" to run back to like what you showed.

Only other option is to go outside, which there are two separate groups of zombies that will block your way out (and if you're doing this during the day you'll probably have a hard time hiding from them outside too)

 

[Jugginator]

Focus on my movement very carefully, when I entered the other room (how I made noise hitting the door, the pause before stealth-jumping over to the other side), the key is to get them to place the breadcrumb trail to where you want them to be before hiding and moving away. If you stealth with them sensing you, it won't do you very much good since you're still leaving breadcrumbs behind. You don't always need to go to another room, but also not every single encounter is stealthable without being very creative. It takes a LOT of practice I admit, but it's doable. 

Where is that btw? coordinates, I can take a look

[NekoPawtato]

9 minutes ago, Jugginator said:

Focus on my movement very carefully, when I entered the other room (how I made noise hitting the door, the pause before stealth-jumping over to the other side), the key is to get them to place the breadcrumb trail to where you want them to be before hiding and moving away. If you stealth with them sensing you, it won't do you very much good since you're still leaving breadcrumbs behind. You don't always need to go to another room, but also not every single encounter is stealthable without being very creative. It takes a LOT of practice I admit, but it's doable. 

Where is that btw? coordinates, I can take a look

Sure thing, here are the coords:

To be honest, I've never actually perked into stealth on my playthroughs (only via creative/dm modes), so it could be that I just dont fully understand how it works. I'll re-watch the clips again

Thanks for taking a look into it!

Edited June 24, 2023 by NekoPawtato (see edit history)

[theFlu]

30 minutes ago, Jugginator said:

I wasn't sure where the example was but I went to a prison and did an example.

Looking at the first vid, some thoughts..

I'm assuming it's an Attack-type volume as it is pitch black and everything seems to know where you are (you are getting GPS-tracked by the wights, first one hits the diagonal wall instead of you, second one lands a hit). It could be the new trigger type as well (3), I haven't tested how those work exactly. But assuming type two:

You reveal yourself at 15 secs in, to gain some speed I presume. From that point on, everything that sees you is following the normal agro rules. So, if you were to enter stealth at 16 secs in, right in the middle of that room, the zeds should likely lose you already. This is based on A20, so reality might differ. IF you're going back in, give it a whirl.

 

Then again, you're in god mode.. based on the audio you took two hits, bleeding from one. Not a horrible fate yet, but you could've gotten stunned which would've ended the escape. And the god mode does reduce your "crit taken" -chance for secondary hits.

 

And if you DON'T do the self-reveal (as in you stay in stealth the whole maneuver), the zeds that haven't "properly" seen you, won't reset as easily as the rest - which is quite counter-intuitive.

 

If you're still in testing it, try dropping in, leaving stealth in the middle of the room toggling headlight on&off, then re-stealthing in the middle of the room. Having LoS to everything, but the darkness should save you.

[Jugginator]

8 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Looking at the first vid, some thoughts..

I'm assuming it's an Attack-type volume as it is pitch black and everything seems to know where you are (you are getting GPS-tracked by the wights, first one hits the diagonal wall instead of you, second one lands a hit). It could be the new trigger type as well (3), I haven't tested how those work exactly. But assuming type two:

You reveal yourself at 15 secs in, to gain some speed I presume. From that point on, everything that sees you is following the normal agro rules. So, if you were to enter stealth at 16 secs in, right in the middle of that room, the zeds should likely lose you already. This is based on A20, so reality might differ. IF you're going back in, give it a whirl.

 

Then again, you're in god mode.. based on the audio you took two hits, bleeding from one. Not a horrible fate yet, but you could've gotten stunned which would've ended the escape. And the god mode does reduce your "crit taken" -chance for secondary hits.

 

And if you DON'T do the self-reveal (as in you stay in stealth the whole maneuver), the zeds that haven't "properly" seen you, won't reset as easily as the rest - which is quite counter-intuitive.

 

If you're still in testing it, try dropping in, leaving stealth in the middle of the room toggling headlight on&off, then re-stealthing in the middle of the room. Having LoS to everything, but the darkness should save you.

 

Ah good catch on God mode, I was testing a few other things out and decided to do that real quick. But no, God mode doesn't affect that either way, it works the same. Just checked again to be sure, had that game loaded up still.

 

And yes, if the lighting conditions are right you can have them lose sight of you by going stealth and moving a foot or two to the side and being still. You'll get the same result

[theFlu]

7 minutes ago, Jugginator said:

Ah good catch on God mode, I was testing a few other things out and decided to do that real quick. But no, God mode doesn't affect that either way, it works the same. Just checked again to be sure, had that game loaded up still.

Hmm, God doesn't effect stealth but it does reset my A21 B317 "Armor Crit Resist" on the UI back to 0 (zero while unarmored). The number goes down when getting hit just like in A20, and I did some testing in A20 to confirm that it did seem to be in line with actual Crit chance - assuming the post-hit-number was the actual chance back then. In A21 something has chanced as I've taken crits from first hits before, but the UI number is still behaving the same.