Exquisite feedback from a charismatic player

[BFT2020]

16 hours ago, Boop said:

I am curious about the agility oriented playstyle after this thread.

 

I forgot to reply to this portion of your thread earlier.

 

Understand that an agility style playthrough that emphases stealth play using bows and knives will be a much slower progression through POIs.  If you are the type of player that doesn't want to spend more time than necessary or maximize your output in a day, you won't find it as fun as just blasting your way through the POIs.

 

Stealth is not like Skryim stealth where you can max out the skill, then simply crouch in front of them in daylight and they can't see you.  There is always a chance to fail the stealth check.  So really read From the Shadow perk description and make use of the ability to have them lose interest in you after you get out of their sight vector.  There is a reason that agility build has Parkour in it  😉

[Izayo]

3 hours ago, Boop said:

Hi Izayo,

 

It was not an assertion, but a question. I am going to start a new run, and I was wondering if the .45 ACP weapon pack is equivalent in power to the existing vanilla weapons. I would like to add mods, and yours look great, but I also want to maintain the same challenge curve as it is.

Would you say that your .45 ACP pack contains weapons superior to the vanilla weapons?

I designed .45 ACP  to fit it between the 9mm and  the .44magnum   ,higher damage than 9mm  lower than the .44 but it can put in an automatic gun.

the ammo is expensive both in cost and ingredient for crafting.

I don't know about looting amout , I usually play with 33% loot and find them like 2 - 8 round / loot  (smallloot , mediumloot) and 50 rounds with tier 1,2 quest and I never found guns in loot even in the T5 chest

Don't worry about the early-game balance , if this game still allowed you to find/craft the pipe-machinegun in the first 15 min. this pack would be fine I think.

also, all the guns required workbench to craft 

 

 

 

[Old Crow]

On 2/2/2023 at 1:59 PM, Boop said:

No but it certainly suggests a limit on any buffing as the stun baton is necessarily limited by its tier. Any considerable boost to batons would need to introduce a T3 baton to keep the progression steady. I'd say the skill progression suggested by that screenshot implicates that the stun baton will become more of a turret support weapon than a stand-alone melee weapon.

 

I'm wondering then, if TFP considers the robotic sledge as the "T3 Baton." Regardless, Int still only has one firearm regardless of tier - the robotic turret.

[meganoth]

13 hours ago, Old Crow said:

 

I'm wondering then, if TFP considers the robotic sledge as the "T3 Baton." Regardless, Int still only has one firearm regardless of tier - the robotic turret.

 

Nope, two when fully perked 😁

 

Seriously, Int is special and I like that it is so special. INT is the attribute that helps replayability the most. 

 

 

 

[Old Crow]

10 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Nope, two when fully perked 😁

 

Seriously, Int is special and I like that it is so special. INT is the attribute that helps replayability the most. 

 

 

 

 

Is that why INT only has the one firearm (robotic turret)?

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Old Crow said:

 

Is that why INT only has the one firearm (robotic turret)?

 

I have no direct knowledge why the developers put no tier3 turret in the game. But I have a good guess, I know that they intented INT to be the one attribute that is NOT combat heavy.

 

In my games I don't miss tier3 fighting turrets because two turrets are already quite effective. And I very much like the different combat opportunities and difficulties.

But I have no use for the flying bag turret. Don't like it in my face. Should be behind me and come around when I hit some key then I might use it

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

If you are also talking pure attribute perking, Int is the only one that can have 3 guns firing at the same time (2 turrets and 1 handheld).  All others can only have 2 (1 turret plus 1 handheld weapon)

[Vaeliorin]

Sure, but Int is also the only tree that requires a ranged weapon (turrets) to make your melee weapon (baton) viable.  It takes way too many hits for the baton to kill things like rad bikers for it to be useful for anything other than crowd control.

[BFT2020]

20 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

Sure, but Int is also the only tree that requires a ranged weapon (turrets) to make your melee weapon (baton) viable.  It takes way too many hits for the baton to kill things like rad bikers for it to be useful for anything other than crowd control.

 

That's fine for the Int attribute though, as the intent of a pure Int tree build is not to be a combat heavy build.  You don't have to make the baton stronger like the club.   Then the Int tree just becomes the strength tree but with turrets.  It's all about playing to the strengths of each attribute tree and not comparing its weaknesses to the other trees.

[Old Crow]

50 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

 

That's fine for the Int attribute though, as the intent of a pure Int tree build is not to be a combat heavy build.  You don't have to make the baton stronger like the club.   Then the Int tree just becomes the strength tree but with turrets.  It's all about playing to the strengths of each attribute tree and not comparing its weaknesses to the other trees.

 

But as combat is part of the game, it'd be nice to not feel required to go into another tree to better survive in a fight. Robotic turrets run out of ammo very quickly, and while yes it's ridiculously easy to craft ammo for them, you still have to keep picking it up to reload it, then set it back down. Even with a drum magazine, they chew through ammo fast.

[meganoth]

54 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

 

But as combat is part of the game, it'd be nice to not feel required to go into another tree to better survive in a fight. Robotic turrets run out of ammo very quickly, and while yes it's ridiculously easy to craft ammo for them, you still have to keep picking it up to reload it, then set it back down. Even with a drum magazine, they chew through ammo fast.

 

But as [mining,farming,lockpicking,hunting,sneaking] is part of the game, it'd be nice to not feel required ... 😉

 

And another point: INT is not the best best tree for combat. If you then can bolster INT by going into another tree that is one more option than you have in many other games were you can only select one class and if that class is the medic, that's it.

 

[Boop]

On 2/3/2023 at 6:40 PM, Izayo said:

I designed .45 ACP  to fit it between the 9mm and  the .44magnum   ,higher damage than 9mm  lower than the .44 but it can put in an automatic gun.

the ammo is expensive both in cost and ingredient for crafting.

I don't know about looting amout , I usually play with 33% loot and find them like 2 - 8 round / loot  (smallloot , mediumloot) and 50 rounds with tier 1,2 quest and I never found guns in loot even in the T5 chest

Don't worry about the early-game balance , if this game still allowed you to find/craft the pipe-machinegun in the first 15 min. this pack would be fine I think.

also, all the guns required workbench to craft

I lowered the damage numbers a bit (32, 40, 50, for regular, HP, Enhanced) and the weapons fit great. The iron sights + inbuilt silencer are wonderful. Congratulations on a well made mod!

 

On 2/3/2023 at 3:56 PM, BFT2020 said:

 

I forgot to reply to this portion of your thread earlier.

 

Understand that an agility style playthrough that emphases stealth play using bows and knives will be a much slower progression through POIs.  If you are the type of player that doesn't want to spend more time than necessary or maximize your output in a day, you won't find it as fun as just blasting your way through the POIs.

 

Stealth is not like Skryim stealth where you can max out the skill, then simply crouch in front of them in daylight and they can't see you.  There is always a chance to fail the stealth check.  So really read From the Shadow perk description and make use of the ability to have them lose interest in you after you get out of their sight vector.  There is a reason that agility build has Parkour in it  😉

Yes, I started with agility now. A harrowing experience, but really fun. I managed to run away from a horde, then hid in the basement corner of an auto shop while 10 angry zombies prowled around in front of me. Scary and tense, but really fun. I managed to outjump them a few times as well though that sometimes failed with unpleasant consequences :/. The night time hordes that spawn in my back are difficult to deal with unless I have some handy terrain nearby and can Batman away.

I tried crossbow for the first time. I like it - not a weapon for plowing through hordes but very cost effective and great for lining up slow shots and taking out groups of 2-5 Zs when combined with a melee weapon, especially the fat ones are much easier with a bolt in the head to start. I don't lose much ammo either. Very nice.

Not as fond of the bleeding. It's nice for faster zombies in open spaces that I can kite, but in closed PoI areas it feels safer to me and faster to use spear and baton, I don't need to be as aware of my escape routes when I can zap. The part I like about zapping is that I can defend myself even in a corner if I get a stun with repulsor.

Loving the crossbow, loving the parkour, and loving the shadow stuff. A much more fun way to experience the tense early game at night. This game is way more fun when you are constantly teetering on the brink. (Also I increased the difficulty, turned on feral sense, lowered loot numbers, and increased night time).

On 2/4/2023 at 12:21 AM, Old Crow said:

 

I'm wondering then, if TFP considers the robotic sledge as the "T3 Baton." Regardless, Int still only has one firearm regardless of tier - the robotic turret.

What if they are introducing something new entirely for INT? Consider that schematics are going away, and the major draws of INT have been advanced engineering, T5 bartering for solar cells, and grease monkey. If vehicles and crafting/construction schematics are no longer available through skills, INT will need a replacement for those. Perhaps a new line of weapons? Perhaps something to do with mods? There are many possibilities, but there will be *something* no doubt.

 

23 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

Sure, but Int is also the only tree that requires a ranged weapon (turrets) to make your melee weapon (baton) viable.  It takes way too many hits for the baton to kill things like rad bikers for it to be useful for anything other than crowd control.

I think baton will fit better in A21. If they are removing it as a weapon and using it to fill out the robot tree, it will have a better role. Now that I think about it seems more likely that INT will get something else to fill the weapon role if that happens (or INT will become a support attribute entirely with no direct combat skills at all, which would signify a change in the skill setup and probably be even more exciting).

1 hour ago, Old Crow said:

 

But as combat is part of the game, it'd be nice to not feel required to go into another tree to better survive in a fight. Robotic turrets run out of ammo very quickly, and while yes it's ridiculously easy to craft ammo for them, you still have to keep picking it up to reload it, then set it back down. Even with a drum magazine, they chew through ammo fast.

That would make for an excellent T3 turret. No meaningful increase in damage or range but uses only half as much ammo. Would also sync well with running double turrets.

46 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

But as [mining,farming,lockpicking,hunting,sneaking] is part of the game, it'd be nice to not feel required ... 😉

 

And another point: INT is not the best best tree for combat. If you then can bolster INT by going into another tree that is one more option than you have in many other games were you can only select one class and if that class is the medic, that's it.

 

I don't think INT is intended as a heavy combat tree, but it would be nice if you could feel the investment you made somehow when going into another tree. If there was a skill in INT that could show the deep investment you've made, even if it's mostly flavor, that would go a long way. I'd like to see something to that effect for all the attributes at rank 10, since at rank 10 you do feel that you belong to that attribute "class". Even better if attributes go up to rank 15 instead.

[BFT2020]

pssttt.....a shotgun in the hands of an Int build kills zombies too.  You don't have to be perked into the shotguns in order to use them.  Especially if said shotgun has the cripple em mod in it and you are aiming for the legs as your turret is firing away.

[meganoth]

13 hours ago, Boop said:

I don't think INT is intended as a heavy combat tree, but it would be nice if you could feel the investment you made somehow when going into another tree. If there was a skill in INT that could show the deep investment you've made, even if it's mostly flavor, that would go a long way. I'd like to see something to that effect for all the attributes at rank 10, since at rank 10 you do feel that you belong to that attribute "class". Even better if attributes go up to rank 15 instead.

 

What BFT said. And the draw of INT are the non-combat perks, even if the schematics go away now. It is unknown how A21 will fare, but in A17-A20 some players viewed Daring Adventurer the top perk even above Better Barter. Part of it was that the trader was not balanced with the progression so Daring Adventurer alone made sure you were progressing your gear very fast. And at the same time generated more money through quests than other players so you could buy more or better stuff, similar to the effect of better barter.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Boop]

On 2/6/2023 at 3:35 PM, meganoth said:

 

What BFT said. And the draw of INT are the non-combat perks, even if the schematics go away now. It is unknown how A21 will fare, but in A17-A20 some players viewed Daring Adventurer the top perk even above Better Barter. Part of it was that the trader was not balanced with the progression so Daring Adventurer alone made sure you were progressing your gear very fast. And at the same time generated more money through quests than other players so you could buy more or better stuff, similar to the effect of better barter.

 

 

I forgot about daring adventurer completely, even though it's my favorite to max early. That double reward when clearing the quest tiers is too tasty.

 

I don't know what you are responding to here otherwise. That INT shouldn't have synergies with other trees? That INT shouldn't have a capstone of some sort that gives you some cool thing as a reward for your deep investment?

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Boop said:

I forgot about daring adventurer completely, even though it's my favorite to max early. That double reward when clearing the quest tiers is too tasty.

 

I don't know what you are responding to here otherwise. That INT shouldn't have synergies with other trees? That INT shouldn't have a capstone of some sort that gives you some cool thing as a reward for your deep investment?

 

I thought you were continuing Old Crow's argument so I was responding to his and your post combined. If you don't think INT is inadequate, why do you think it needs to be bolstered. Isn't that double reward of Daring a cool thing?

 

[Old Crow]

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I thought you were continuing Old Crow's argument so I was responding to his and your post combined. If you don't think INT is inadequate, why do you think it needs to be bolstered. Isn't that double reward of Daring a cool thing?

 

 

Int is pretty good, though a third baton weapon would be nice, and some sort of proper firearm. I don't really get why There are only two baton types (pipe and stun). What ab out something inbetween, like a police baton? I'm also hoping the Stun Baton gets a damage boost in A21. I know the stun effect is supposed to make up for it, but it's not like it happens a lot, and a higher tier weapon should not be dealing less damage than a standard wooden club.

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, Old Crow said:

the stun effect is supposed to make up for it, but it's not like it happens a lot

The bookset allows making the stun a proper aoe crowd control, mildly random, but a permanent stun on a small number of targets. All the while you have two friendlies chewing up the stunned ones.

 

I'd say balance-wise INT is in a good spot as is, probably even on the strong side. So adding power to the batons would require reducing somewhere else.

[Old Crow]

10 hours ago, theFlu said:

The bookset allows making the stun a proper aoe crowd control, mildly random, but a permanent stun on a small number of targets. All the while you have two friendlies chewing up the stunned ones.

 

I'd say balance-wise INT is in a good spot as is, probably even on the strong side. So adding power to the batons would require reducing somewhere else.

 

Would it, though? I'm not saying make the damage output on-par with a steel sledge. But it really shouldn't be weaker than a primitive weapon.

[theFlu]

2 hours ago, Old Crow said:

But it really shouldn't be weaker than a primitive weapon.

#define weaker. Not that many other things in game reliably shake three or more rads off of you.

[meganoth]

10 hours ago, theFlu said:

#define weaker. Not that many other things in game reliably shake three or more rads off of you.

 

The aoe effect is only achievable with the candy. One of the books allows you to recharge the baton faster and the other book gives a repulsor mod to throw zombies away. AFAIK fully perked you can keep one zombie in stun lock forever no matter how big it is.

 

I looked into the XMLs: T0 primitive wooden club and T0 primitive baton both have the same damage (13.8) ! Consequently T2 stun baton has LESS damage (10.8) than even its lower tier T0 baton!! This seems to indicate that the developers think that the stun ability is worth much more than the damage difference between those tier0 weapons (3).

 

When comparing it to the tier1 and tier3 clubs (19.2 and 26.2) we could assume that without the stun it would have a damage somewhere in the middle between those values (22.7). And that would mean the developers value the stun as effective as 9 damage.

 

Note I did not compare other attributes like stamina-loss, reach, ... but I don't think there is much difference in those values.

 

 

 

[theFlu]

5 minutes ago, meganoth said:

The aoe effect is only achievable with the candy.

You don't really need the aoe to gain decent control over several targets with it. Three is a lot to control without it, for sure, you'll need to kite effectively, but it's a whole lot easier than with the clubs.

 

I did some cursory testing of the difference earlier today, curiously my Q6 Baseball Bat did 67 damage on a power strike, and the Q6 Stun Baton did 66 when including the dot damage. I didn't check if the dot scales.

 

Either weapon, unskilled, against rad healing is just fishing for a decap anyway, which feels a lot smoother with the baton stuns.

[Boop]

On 2/8/2023 at 4:30 AM, meganoth said:

 

I thought you were continuing Old Crow's argument so I was responding to his and your post combined. If you don't think INT is inadequate, why do you think it needs to be bolstered. Isn't that double reward of Daring a cool thing?

 

Ahh, then I follow. No, I don't think INT needs to be bolstered. I do think it would be neat if INT (all the attributes really) had something to show off your superior intellect as a capstone, like the ability to see the HP bar of zombies,  or a modifier for the night vision goggles to show "zombie heat" or something, just to indicate that you have Spock level intelligence. An ancillary bonus that signals your intellectual ascendance. I would also like if there was some interaction with other trees, but that's more a general idea than INT related, and would in many cases require that individual skills be toned down to compensate for increased power.

As for the other argument I think that was just a question of whether or not there would be improvements to the baton, which seems unlikely given the robotics tree screenshot.

[Roland]

Fascinating.

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, theFlu said:

You don't really need the aoe to gain decent control over several targets with it. Three is a lot to control without it, for sure, you'll need to kite effectively, but it's a whole lot easier than with the clubs.

 

I did some cursory testing of the difference earlier today, curiously my Q6 Baseball Bat did 67 damage on a power strike, and the Q6 Stun Baton did 66 when including the dot damage. I didn't check if the dot scales.

 

Either weapon, unskilled, against rad healing is just fishing for a decap anyway, which feels a lot smoother with the baton stuns.

 

Oh, I forgot to take the DOT damage into account for the comparison