Loving A20 except the way loot is COMPLETELY BROKEN

[Krougal]

3 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Finding parts would be a solution. naturally even a Tier1 pistol would then need >10 parts for it to be a limitation or gate against an early weapon flood. There might be protests that you find useless ammo for a time, but I would like that the early game would depend on bows again.

 

 

Is it such a bad thing though? I mean even when I find a ql1 pistol I think "nice, I'll have parts for later" but I continue using my bow. At some point I switch out that ql6 prim for a compound, but more often I'm already rocking an AK/auto shotty/SMG by then anyway so the compound becomes niche.

 

Now as an experienced player I've got biases and some of them are outdated habits, back when guns were made of individual parts with ql (ahhh that system had such charm even if it needed a lot of balancing) I would hardly use guns until I had enough parts to make ql 600, but then it was game on. It also took that long to stockpile enough ammo to make the switch as primary.

[Belgarion32]

10 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Which is end-game, since before demos and glowy ferals "unlimited" ammo is simply OP. With spray and pray I can deal with a horde of normal and feral zombies easy without getting a scratch. But sure, the definition of what IS end-game depends very strongly on how the game seeks to balance the progress of the player. Eventually the TFP developers are the ones who define what is an end-game item and what isn't-

 

 

Glowy Ferals were released 4 alphas ago and the game has progressed. "Unlimited" ammo is only to the amount that you are able to make and in this alpha it already feels much more limited just by the resources available especially in cities where there aren't marked ore deposits. The fact that pipe weapons are so easily crafted clearly shows they want you to be able to use guns earlier if you so choose which means that the ability to use them should follow suit. I don't mind being stuck with low amounts of ammo to be looted initially, then needing to get to stage where I craft the ammo, and then a final stage where I can craft it easier but it shouldn't be a core mechanic to have to worry about.

 

Fighting the zombies, scavenging, quests, base building are all functions that should be core - not how much you're able to prepare your one spray and pray weapon for horde night. That should be a set it and forget task, which I believe TFP are seeing and changing it accordingly based off proposed A21 changes to outfits and the A20 current changes to upgrading blocks. Basically just reducing unnecessary grind to keep play and upkeep more balanced.

 

11 hours ago, meganoth said:

Pipe weapons are very unbalanced at the moment. Which is acceptable as you can build and use any of them with almost equal skill as you probably used your initial perk points for better things than boosting your gun skill.

 

So the pipe rifle is good for hunting game but absolutely nothing else. The pipe machine gun is the only effective oh @%$# weapon. Pipe pistol and shotgun are only there to use ammo you otherwise couldn't use.

 

But comparing pipe weapons with compound bow doesn't make any sense. Compare them with a primitive bow. The compound bow is at least tier2, (maybe even tier3 and there exists no tier2).  

 

 

I don't believe pipe weapons are unbalanced at all. The shotgun is great when you're clearing small roomed POIs (aka t1/t2), the rifle is great at sniping birds/wolves or approaching screamers, the pistol is a good fall back weapon for finishing off a zombie or two when you run out of stamina momentarily, and the machine gun is great for taking out hordes or stronger zombies or animals. The only thing that I have an issue with is the reload time feels a little high over all the other weapons but such is the way for not using stamina. 

I compare the pipe weapons to the compound bow because it's pretty likely you'd be able to craft one much faster than any of the other 'strong' weapons and would likely be available around the time you have quality 4 primitive weapons. It only takes 5 bow parts which is only one more than a wooden bow and a few components that are readily available, I also doubt there much difference between the two schematic drop rates of the wooden bow and compound, and it requires no steel or iron which means you don't even need a forge for the most powerful bow in the game. It makes just as much sense as what it takes to craft.

[meganoth]

11 hours ago, Belgarion32 said:

 

Glowy Ferals were released 4 alphas ago and the game has progressed. "Unlimited" ammo is only to the amount that you are able to make and in this alpha it already feels much more limited just by the resources available especially in cities where there aren't marked ore deposits. The fact that pipe weapons are so easily crafted clearly shows they want you to be able to use guns earlier if you so choose which means that the ability to use them should follow suit. I don't mind being stuck with low amounts of ammo to be looted initially, then needing to get to stage where I craft the ammo, and then a final stage where I can craft it easier but it shouldn't be a core mechanic to have to worry about.

 

EDIT: I don't see ammo production as a core mechanic when more ammo is usually just some more mining effort away. Depending on what you specialize in it may make you change your schedule a bit, but for everything there are multiple ways to get it. And with forgettin elixier you can even change your specialization to one that is more ammo efficient. "Multiple ways to do it" might be called a core mechanic, not the ammo production

 

11 hours ago, Belgarion32 said:

 

Fighting the zombies, scavenging, quests, base building are all functions that should be core - not how much you're able to prepare your one spray and pray weapon for horde night. That should be a set it and forget task, which I believe TFP are seeing and changing it accordingly based off proposed A21 changes to outfits and the A20 current changes to upgrading blocks. Basically just reducing unnecessary grind to keep play and upkeep more balanced.

 

 

I don't believe pipe weapons are unbalanced at all. The shotgun is great when you're clearing small roomed POIs (aka t1/t2), the rifle is great at sniping birds/wolves or approaching screamers, the pistol is a good fall back weapon for finishing off a zombie or two when you run out of stamina momentarily, and the machine gun is great for taking out hordes or stronger zombies or animals. The only thing that I have an issue with is the reload time feels a little high over all the other weapons but such is the way for not using stamina. 

 

EDIT: In what way is the pistol a good fall back weapon when the machine gun is its better in every way except ammo cost and you need it anyway as oh-@%$# weapon? Do you have free belt slots available for such a luxury? 

Shotgun or pistol are only acceptable as a way to save on 7.62 ammo or use up otherwise useless ammo.

 

11 hours ago, Belgarion32 said:

I compare the pipe weapons to the compound bow because it's pretty likely you'd be able to craft one much faster than any of the other 'strong' weapons and would likely be available around the time you have quality 4 primitive weapons. It only takes 5 bow parts which is only one more than a wooden bow and a few components that are readily available, I also doubt there much difference between the two schematic drop rates of the wooden bow and compound, and it requires no steel or iron which means you don't even need a forge for the most powerful bow in the game. It makes just as much sense as what it takes to craft.

 

According to XML the compound bow (schematic and weapon), even though it is called a tier3, drops exactly like all the tier2 guns.

Also bow parts needed for crafting are the same amount as with tier2 guns. As long as you don't ignore the trader forged steel is not hard to come by in mid game.

 

So you can compare the compound bow to tactical assault rifle or pump shotgun, with a cost advantage when crafting it. That's it.

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[nostalginator]

On 12/28/2021 at 11:20 AM, JCrook1028 said:

RNG is RNG. Just because you are getting unlucky does not mean it is broken. If it did then my having found/bought 2 beakers by D13 means they are far too common. Neither is true.

Skipped over everything else I said, did we?  I'm real happy for you and your one playthrough and I'm gonna let you finish, but this has happened to me over multiple playthroughs.  I already said this.  I'm getting real tired of repeating myself, so I'm not going to do it again.

 

On 12/28/2021 at 11:12 AM, Boidster said:

I'm keen to hear your suggestion for a loot mechanism which does not meet Meganoth's (and my own) definition of "fake-random" and which would prevent the situation above. And just so we're crystal clear on how it works now:

 

1) Every possible loot item in a container is assigned a probability

2) Game produces a random number and checks against the probabilities

3) Game gives you the item indicated by the random number

4) Game does not track in any way what you have found already, what you still need, or what you want to find

 

Okay - how could it be changed to prevent Auger before Beaker?

You would think I was asking for the world and the moon here. 

All I want is a simple change in the probability of finding a beaker.  If it's set to "very low," set it to "low." That should do it.  I'm not going to go over yet again all the hoops I jumped through to absolutely no avail; you can scroll up like everybody else.

The problem with finding an auger early has nothing to do with beakers specifically but in the way that the game disincentivizes players from following a logical progression of getting better gear over time, instead favoring giant leaps.  Once you've got an auger you have no need to craft steel tools.  You won't have found enough parts to craft steel tools by the time you find an auger.  That's not a problem with the RNG per se, but in how looting is set up.

The first time I played co-op with some friends, I joined a game they had gotten a decent amount of progress into.  One of them handed me an auger and asked me to go mine something.  After about four seconds of using it, I said, and I quote, "This is game-breaking."  That was my noob impression because an auger is end-game gear.  You shouldn't get end-game gear before the end-game-- if you want an easy game, play on easy-- but you will.  Neither a beaker nor a chemistry station, however, is end-game gear.

There was no need to be so condescending with your 4th point.  Just because you disagree with me doesn't actually make me a moron.

[Belgarion32]

20 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

EDIT: I don't see ammo production as a core mechanic when more ammo is usually just some more mining effort away. Depending on what you specialize in it may make you change your schedule a bit, but for everything there are multiple ways to get it. And with forgettin elixier you can even change your specialization to one that is more ammo efficient. "Multiple ways to do it" might be called a core mechanic, not the ammo production

 

If it continuously takes up part of your time without any changes throughout the entire playthrough - it becomes a core mechanic. Do you really expect to get through even a day 14 or 21 horde without a nice stockpile of ammo? Like sure, I get it - there needs to be a little challenge to it - but the amount of time necessary to build up enough ammo is much higher than necessary especially for those who do eventually wind up with bad RNG.

 

20 hours ago, meganoth said:

EDIT: In what way is the pistol a good fall back weapon when the machine gun is its better in every way except ammo cost and you need it anyway as oh-@%$# weapon? Do you have free belt slots available for such a luxury? 

Shotgun or pistol are only acceptable as a way to save on 7.62 ammo or use up otherwise useless ammo.

If you play so carelessly that you require a machine gun for every occasion, I feel bad for you. With 10 toolbelt slots, I don't know how you don't have slots available for an extra weapon. Every weapon has it's place, more-so if you spec into it. I carry in my toolbelt (early game) bone knife/wrench/hammer (depending on need), bow, all the pipe weapons except the rifle (because bow [aka 4 slots]), axe, pick, shovel, and a club. Why would I carry, in my toolbelt at least, literally anything else? Everything else can be used from the inventory window itself when there isn't other issues to deal with like your face getting eaten off.

 

Your clear distain of others' playstyles is weak and cringy. Learn to expand out of your comfort zone and you may learn that the weapons you despise have utility, even if you don't like it.

 

20 hours ago, meganoth said:

According to XML the compound bow (schematic and weapon), even though it is called a tier3, drops exactly like all the tier2 guns.

Also bow parts needed for crafting are the same amount as with tier2 guns. As long as you don't ignore the trader forged steel is not hard to come by in mid game.

 

So you can compare the compound bow to tactical assault rifle or pump shotgun, with a cost advantage when crafting it. That's it.

You've missed the point.

There is the ability to get a compound bow, which is stronger than ANY of the other weapons available to you, available and crafted early game (within 7 days). Ya know, the same time you'd actually be using pipe weapons. I don't give two @%$#s if the XML says it's supposed to drop later, I'm telling you it's possible to have t3 weapons at the same time as t0/t1 which considering you'd have 'compare' the DPS vs. Quality vs. Tier to know this issue is in-fact an issue, it is fair to compare. It's cheaper on ammo cost, easier to craft than any t2 weapon, and more effective at that stage - THAT'S A PROBLEM. If there was an issue of ammo type like a rocket launcher where the ammo itself was difficult to get, and it would just have to sit in a chest until usable, then it makes sense not to compare them. But as it sits, I can get a quality 1 compound and use my stone arrows and be mostly content until later mid game (like quality 3 standard weapons) - save most everything for hordes. That is not balanced, there should at least be an unavailability to use stone arrows so you're at least incentivized to get a tier of ammo that would be comparable to say, a carbon arrow or some @%$#, or the possibility that stone arrows break occasionally if you risk to try them.

As it currently is, I have way more incentive to go out of my way to find bow parts in more difficult POIs than spend time finding and mining resources to get the other ammo types because I can mass spam crafting stone arrows in my inventory - feathers and stone are around every bush. The only struggle there even is, is having a workbench, but the drops on those schematics already seem higher than most so it's not even a big deal.

[Krougal]

3 hours ago, Belgarion32 said:

Stuff

So help me god if they nerf the compound bow I will find where you live and come kick your ass!

 

It isn't that easy, I am on day 30+ on average by the time I find the schematic. Other than being silent, it's still inferior to a rifle because the ROF is much lower. It is a nice weapon to have, partly because of the fact that it uses any ammo. Partly because if you invested points into archery it keeps it somewhat relevant and useful.

Incentive to not use stone arrows comes the day you can make iron arrows and incentive to not use iron arrows comes the day you can make steel. What more incentive do you need? If life is being otherwise unkind to you it is nice to be able to fall back to stone arrows in a pinch. 

It's niche is that it is somewhat general purpose and stealthy. It isn't long range, a crossbow with a 4x or a scoped rifle better serves that role.

Even as a stealth build as soon as I had a 9mm with a silencer the bow sat in storage more often than not.

Otherwise all things being equal, I'd rather have any T2 gun, if the bow were nerfed it would go to the trashheap just like the wooden bow.

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Krougal (see edit history)

[meganoth]

13 hours ago, Belgarion32 said:

If it continuously takes up part of your time without any changes throughout the entire playthrough - it becomes a core mechanic. Do you really expect to get through even a day 14 or 21 horde without a nice stockpile of ammo? Like sure, I get it - there needs to be a little challenge to it - but the amount of time necessary to build up enough ammo is much higher than necessary especially for those who do eventually wind up with bad RNG.

 

My view may be skewed because I often play agility which has the lowest ammo usage of all attributes, but just with buying and looting ammo and using a lot of melee you have enough ammo for horde night, at least for all the time before you go into late late end-game. Ask around, other people on the forum said this as well as far as I remember.

 

Now before you counter with the "play-style" argument, sure, there is the play-style of spray-and-pray ignoring melee, but the ease of use and safety of shooting all zombies into pulp comes at a cost. There are so many ways to get ammo in this game that I have qualms to call ammo crafting a core mechanism. Crafting in general for all sorts of consumables and building materials IS a core mechanism, ammo crafting is just an optional part of it.

 

13 hours ago, Belgarion32 said:

 

If you play so carelessly that you require a machine gun for every occasion, I feel bad for you.

 

Well, good then that that isn't the case. I shouldn't be surprised you don't know the meaning of "oh-@%$#" weapon in this forum, but you have only 4 posts so maybe I should have defined the term. "Oh-@%$#" weapons are those weapons you use when you get rushed by a group of zombies into a corner or small room and you would surely die if you still try meleeing yourself out of that situation. It is for the rare occasions where @%$# hits the fans.

 

13 hours ago, Belgarion32 said:

With 10 toolbelt slots, I don't know how you don't have slots available for an extra weapon. Every weapon has it's place, more-so if you spec into it. I carry in my toolbelt (early game) bone knife/wrench/hammer (depending on need), bow, all the pipe weapons except the rifle (because bow [aka 4 slots]), axe, pick, shovel, and a club. Why would I carry, in my toolbelt at least, literally anything else? Everything else can be used from the inventory window itself when there isn't other issues to deal with like your face getting eaten off.

 

Everyone has preferences here. I find wooden ladder and healing bandages are more important as they also allow me to survive close enounters with my grave. Generally all the non-dangerous stuff can be dealt with by melee. Guns are optional here. 

 

I'm surely not the best player of 7D2D. I don't even play on insane like many here. Maybe we hear from other experienced players how they view pipe weapons and whether they always use more than one in early game.

 

13 hours ago, Belgarion32 said:

 

Your clear distain of others' playstyles is weak and cringy. Learn to expand out of your comfort zone and you may learn that the weapons you despise have utility, even if you don't like it.

 

I don*t despise them and I don't have been denigrating other playstyles. I brought up arguments you are free to counter instead of analysing my psychological makeup.

 

I merely said that other pipe weapons are relatively weak compared to machine gun and in most cases can simply be substituted by the pipe machine gun. And in my opinion the machine gun should have the longest reload of them all to balance that.

If you have found a niche to play with them good for you, I think that niche is too small. I don't doubt that you have fun using them and if we didn't do some things just for fun in this game everyone would have to play strength or Int anyway. But that doen't mean those pipe weapons couldn't be balanced better.

And yes, this is just my opinion, in a complex game with many strategies balancing IS a very subjective matter and arguments are seldom enough to really find out the truth.

 

I think telemetry (which we don't have, only TFP has that) will tell if other pipe weapons are commonly used. My guess would be that if someone finds a higher quality pipe weapon of any type he will use it. But if he has to craft one, the majority of players will craft a pipe machine gun.

 

13 hours ago, Belgarion32 said:

 

You've missed the point.

There is the ability to get a compound bow, which is stronger than ANY of the other weapons available to you, available and crafted early game (within 7 days). Ya know, the same time you'd actually be using pipe weapons. I don't give two @%$#s if the XML says it's supposed to drop later, I'm telling you it's possible to have t3 weapons at the same time as t0/t1 which considering you'd have 'compare' the DPS vs. Quality vs. Tier to know this issue is in-fact an issue, it is fair to compare. It's cheaper on ammo cost, easier to craft than any t2 weapon, and more effective at that stage - THAT'S A PROBLEM. If there was an issue of ammo type like a rocket launcher where the ammo itself was difficult to get, and it would just have to sit in a chest until usable, then it makes sense not to compare them. But as it sits, I can get a quality 1 compound and use my stone arrows and be mostly content until later mid game (like quality 3 standard weapons) - save most everything for hordes. That is not balanced, there should at least be an unavailability to use stone arrows so you're at least incentivized to get a tier of ammo that would be comparable to say, a carbon arrow or some @%$#, or the possibility that stone arrows break occasionally if you risk to try them.

As it currently is, I have way more incentive to go out of my way to find bow parts in more difficult POIs than spend time finding and mining resources to get the other ammo types because I can mass spam crafting stone arrows in my inventory - feathers and stone are around every bush. The only struggle there even is, is having a workbench, but the drops on those schematics already seem higher than most so it's not even a big deal.

 

Lets just call the compound bow a tier2 weapon. In everything but internal name it seems to be one.

 

If someone has the luck of finding a tier2 weapon of any type in the early game he will use it instead of any pipe weapon in situations where he needs firepower. If you don't agree to that then we simply have to agree to disagree. This has nothing to do with playstyle. Except for the pipe rifle if that tier2 weapons has no range or using specific ammo there is no compelling reason to use any of the other weapons.

 

The only problem is actually if tier2 guns/bows commonly drop too early. I find it nice that you have a very low chance at a lucky draw (the absence of that lucky draw was a common criticism made against A18/A19 loot), but that chance must be low enough that you can't depend on it. If you can show that you more often than not find a tier2 gun in normal gameplay on say day 7 and without going into the wasteland for "super-loot", then that is a balancing problem in the loot tables.

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[JCrook1028]

22 hours ago, nostalginator said:

Skipped over everything else I said, did we?  I'm real happy for you and your one playthrough and I'm gonna let you finish, but this has happened to me over multiple playthroughs.  I already said this.  I'm getting real tired of repeating myself, so I'm not going to do it again.

Nope, I didn't skip a single thing you said. All that proves tho is that RNG is working as intended to make some items rare. What you call "unreasonable" is obvious different than what the Devs think.

16 hours ago, Belgarion32 said:

Why would I carry, in my toolbelt at least, literally anything else? Everything else can be used from the inventory window itself when there isn't other issues to deal with like your face getting eaten off.

Well lemme think for half a second. Bandage cause going to inventory to use them literally will get your face eaten off.

[Boidster]

21 hours ago, nostalginator said:

All I want is a simple change in the probability of finding a beaker.  If it's set to "very low," set it to "low." That should do it.

 

But you said:

 

On 12/28/2021 at 8:17 AM, nostalginator said:

How is finding an auger before finding a beaker even remotely reasonable?

 

It is reasonable precisely because of how the system works! That is why I carefully explained how the system works when responding to the above and asked you to describe a system which would prevent such an unreasonable result. Slightly-easier-to-find beakers wouldn't, but okay at least it's easy to do.

 

And now you say:

 

21 hours ago, nostalginator said:

The problem with finding an auger early has nothing to do with beakers specifically but in the way that the game disincentivizes players from following a logical progression of getting better gear over time, instead favoring giant leaps.

 

This is absolutely not true. As has been explained by multiple people in this very thread! It is random. And in fact the auger which you are so worked up about is gamestage-scaled whereas beakers are not. So beakers are literally easier to find early since getting an auger is impossible until approximately GS118 (loot-affecting gear/candy applies). That is, the game enforces a logical progression of better loot as you play longer. Exactly what you suggest it should be doing. See the ProbT3 probability table in loot.xml.

 

Here is a modlet which will do what you claim you want. It absolutely will make it easier to find beakers. But it's just a small nudge (I hope, I did not playtest it through many game days) so it's quite possible you'll reach GS 118 and hit the lucky roll and still get an auger first. You can tweak it to be even more loose with beakers pretty easily.

 

I want to be clear that I'm not arguing that vanilla beaker probabilities are correct, nor that a balancing pass isn't required for a whole range of loot. I'm trying to clarify that this seems to be a balance issue, not a "broken system" issue. And also that without serious unbalancing, in the other direction, Auger-before-Beaker will always be a possibility. Or Steel Pick-before-Beaker. Or pick the unreasonable item you get before a beaker. RNG is RNG and unless you want a deterministic loot path, there will be anomalies.

[Belgarion32]

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

My view may be skewed because I often play agility which has the lowest ammo usage of all attributes, but just with buying and looting ammo and using a lot of melee you have enough ammo for horde night, at least for all the time before you go into late late end-game. Ask around, other people on the forum said this as well as far as I remember.

 

Now before you counter with the "play-style" argument, sure, there is the play-style of spray-and-pray ignoring melee, but the ease of use and safety of shooting all zombies into pulp comes at a cost. There are so many ways to get ammo in this game that I have qualms to call ammo crafting a core mechanism. Crafting in general for all sorts of consumables and building materials IS a core mechanism, ammo crafting is just an optional part of it.

 

 

While I'm sure it should be and is the case for many players, it's not been my experience. Generally on Day 7 I probably have one stacks of two ammo types and maybe 100 rounds of 7.62? The latest playthrough I found myself with about 20 zombies destroying the BnG under me without anything I could do at that point. I didn't have that same issue in A19 when it was pretty much just a single quality 1 pistol and all I really needed to do was craft 9mm which seemed reasonable for a day 7 horde. Now between the lower damage from the pipe weapons, more scarce ammo to find looting, it's either spend a large time mining or get f___d. Unless melee is prioritized, ammo is a necessity.

 

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

Well, good then that that isn't the case. I shouldn't be surprised you don't know the meaning of "oh-@%$#" weapon in this forum, but you have only 4 posts so maybe I should have defined the term. "Oh-@%$#" weapons are those weapons you use when you get rushed by a group of zombies into a corner or small room and you would surely die if you still try meleeing yourself out of that situation. It is for the rare occasions where @%$# hits the fans.

 

 

You've also said, "Pipe pistol and shotgun are only there to use ammo you otherwise couldn't use." 

So which is it? Only when you need it? Or is melee the only other 'acceptable' way to kill a zombie? 

 

I gave my answer to when is the pipe pistol a good fallback weapon - "for finishing off a zombie or two when you run out of stamina momentarily"  - sorry I like diversity and options? Also, usually two quick rounds drops them and you can sprint though a group to get away and gain some space.

 

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

I don*t despise them and I don't have been denigrating other playstyles. I brought up arguments you are free to counter instead of analysing my psychological makeup.

 

I merely said that other pipe weapons are relatively weak compared to machine gun and in most cases can simply be substituted by the pipe machine gun. And in my opinion the machine gun should have the longest reload of them all to balance that.

If you have found a niche to play with them good for you, I think that niche is too small. I don't doubt that you have fun using them and if we didn't do some things just for fun in this game everyone would have to play strength or Int anyway. But that doen't mean those pipe weapons couldn't be balanced better.

And yes, this is just my opinion, in a complex game with many strategies balancing IS a very subjective matter and arguments are seldom enough to really find out the truth.

 

>"Shotgun or pistol are only acceptable as a way to save on 7.62 ammo or use up otherwise useless ammo."

 

That's not what you said at all. It may have you meant, but that's not what was conveyed. I agree that the machine gun should have the longest reload, even though I feel that the shotgun has it's use, it still feels tiring to wait again and again for a single shot. But that is a reason why I think it does well as a t1/t2 questing weapon. The max you're dealing with is maybe four and a door in-between can easily make up the time.

 

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

Lets just call the compound bow a tier2 weapon. In everything but internal name it seems to be one.

 

If someone has the luck of finding a tier2 weapon of any type in the early game he will use it instead of any pipe weapon in situations where he needs firepower. If you don't agree to that then we simply have to agree to disagree. This has nothing to do with playstyle. Except for the pipe rifle if that tier2 weapons has no range or using specific ammo there is no compelling reason to use any of the other weapons.

 

The only problem is actually if tier2 guns/bows commonly drop too early. I find it nice that you have a very low chance at a lucky draw (the absence of that lucky draw was a common criticism made against A18/A19 loot), but that chance must be low enough that you can't depend on it. If you can show that you more often than not find a tier2 gun in normal gameplay on say day 7 and without going into the wasteland for "super-loot", then that is a balancing problem in the loot tables.

It's still being dropped like a tier2 when the damage and usability more clearly reflects a tier3. What I'm suggesting is that either there needs to compelling reason to use the compound over the wooden and the wooden over the primitive since at the current stage there is none. Either the damage of the wooden bow should be brought up to fall better in line, or the compound needs limitations from early game and more incentive for later game. I almost exclusively play only in the forest biome in cities or towns within the first 7 days. I don't enjoy the struggle of heat and cold so I tend to stay away from higher tier areas until closer to day15 or later when I have plenty of resistances to both. Like I said, the compound is pretty easy to craft, especially with schematics having probabilities on tons of common items like mailboxes, the new newspaper/magazine stands, trash, nightstands, and cabinets.

[meganoth]

58 minutes ago, Belgarion32 said:

 

While I'm sure it should be and is the case for many players, it's not been my experience. Generally on Day 7 I probably have one stacks of two ammo types and maybe 100 rounds of 7.62? The latest playthrough I found myself with about 20 zombies destroying the BnG under me without anything I could do at that point. I didn't have that same issue in A19 when it was pretty much just a single quality 1 pistol and all I really needed to do was craft 9mm which seemed reasonable for a day 7 horde. Now between the lower damage from the pipe weapons, more scarce ammo to find looting, it's either spend a large time mining or get f___d. Unless melee is prioritized, ammo is a necessity.

 

And ammo scarcity is a necessity if some ammo is clearly better than other ammo and arrows and melee and needs some disadvantage too. If you don't save on ammo you need to spend some time in a mine or expend more money for ammo instead of other things. 

 

By the way, I remember day 7 horde nights in alpha15 and 16 where my group used ONLY bows and arrows and lots of wooden spike traps. If you don't have enough ammo, collect feathers and you don't need to wait out the horde night.

 

58 minutes ago, Belgarion32 said:

You've also said, "Pipe pistol and shotgun are only there to use ammo you otherwise couldn't use." 

So which is it? Only when you need it? Or is melee the only other 'acceptable' way to kill a zombie? 

 

I gave my answer to when is the pipe pistol a good fallback weapon - "for finishing off a zombie or two when you run out of stamina momentarily"  - sorry I like diversity and options? Also, usually two quick rounds drops them and you can sprint though a group to get away and gain some space.

 

 

>"Shotgun or pistol are only acceptable as a way to save on 7.62 ammo or use up otherwise useless ammo."

 

That's not what you said at all. It may have you meant, but that's not what was conveyed. I agree that the machine gun should have the longest reload, even though I feel that the shotgun has it's use, it still feels tiring to wait again and again for a single shot. But that is a reason why I think it does well as a t1/t2 questing weapon. The max you're dealing with is maybe four and a door in-between can easily make up the time.

 

Is this about the word "acceptable" ? I'm not a native english speaker and maybe we have some miscommunication here. I did not say that you can't use those weapons, that they are unacceptable to be used. I meant "acceptable" as in "sufficient", "up to the task" or "adequate".

 

58 minutes ago, Belgarion32 said:

It's still being dropped like a tier2 when the damage and usability more clearly reflects a tier3. What I'm suggesting is that either there needs to compelling reason to use the compound over the wooden and the wooden over the primitive since at the current stage there is none. Either the damage of the wooden bow should be brought up to fall better in line, or the compound needs limitations from early game and more incentive for later game. I almost exclusively play only in the forest biome in cities or towns within the first 7 days. I don't enjoy the struggle of heat and cold so I tend to stay away from higher tier areas until closer to day15 or later when I have plenty of resistances to both. Like I said, the compound is pretty easy to craft, especially with schematics having probabilities on tons of common items like mailboxes, the new newspaper/magazine stands, trash, nightstands, and cabinets.

 

You see no compelling reason to use the compound bow over the wooden bow? Like more damage, more range, less ballistic curve, but mostly more damage?

You are not making any sense here.

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Belgarion32]

On 12/30/2021 at 6:07 PM, meganoth said:

Is this about the word "acceptable" ? I'm not a native english speaker and maybe we have some miscommunication here. I did not say that you can't use those weapons, that they are unacceptable to be used. I meant "acceptable" as in "sufficient", "up to the task" or "adequate".

I understand now. Your english overall is very good and I didn't consider it may not be your first language, I mistook the intention of what you said. Adequate would have been a better term to convey the meaning, acceptable implies a Yes/No situation to me. Like, "No, don't do that, that's unacceptable/not correct." vs "That tool isn't adequate for that task"

 

On 12/30/2021 at 6:07 PM, meganoth said:

You see no compelling reason to use the compound bow over the wooden bow? Like more damage, more range, less ballistic curve, but mostly more damage?

You are not making any sense here.

 

To quote Willy Wonka, 'scratch that - reverse it.'

I see no reason to use the wooden bow at all, as in, you can pretty much bypass it altogether.

[Krougal]

2 hours ago, Belgarion32 said:

I understand now. Your english overall is very good and I didn't consider it may not be your first language, I mistook the intention of what you said. Adequate would have been a better term to convey the meaning, acceptable implies a Yes/No situation to me. Like, "No, don't do that, that's unacceptable/not correct." vs "That tool isn't adequate for that task"

 

 

To quote Willy Wonka, 'scratch that - reverse it.'

I see no reason to use the wooden bow at all, as in, you can pretty much bypass it altogether.

Yeah, he isn't as much of a jerk when you realize he is ESL, although he is still kinda a jerk 😛

 

The wooden bow is a waste of space.

[ktr]

On 12/30/2021 at 8:55 AM, meganoth said:

 

My view may be skewed because I often play agility which has the lowest ammo usage of all attributes, but just with buying and looting ammo and using a lot of melee you have enough ammo for horde night, at least for all the time before you go into late late end-game. Ask around, other people on the forum said this as well as far as I remember.

I have the same experience with AGI.  I play mostly with 1 to other people and am the main looter in our group.  We never have to worry about crafting ammo for horde night until maybe D28.  I am the main looter, but since I run exclusively bow even after ferals start showing up, all the ammo I loot just goes into the stockpile. We will craft ammo if we have the stuff on hand (looted casings, bullet tips, etc) but don't really start trying UNLESS I cannot find bow parts to make better bows.

We have a box full of parts to make guns and tools.... and exactly 1 bow part at this point. lol.

I will disagree with you slightly on pistols. Later in the game, the pistol is my trusty backup weapon and I love it because 9mm are cheap so even if @%$# goes wrong in a T5, I'm still coming out aces loot wise compared to resource expenditure.

[meganoth]

19 hours ago, ktr said:

I have the same experience with AGI.  I play mostly with 1 to other people and am the main looter in our group.  We never have to worry about crafting ammo for horde night until maybe D28.  I am the main looter, but since I run exclusively bow even after ferals start showing up, all the ammo I loot just goes into the stockpile. We will craft ammo if we have the stuff on hand (looted casings, bullet tips, etc) but don't really start trying UNLESS I cannot find bow parts to make better bows.

We have a box full of parts to make guns and tools.... and exactly 1 bow part at this point. lol.

I will disagree with you slightly on pistols. Later in the game, the pistol is my trusty backup weapon and I love it because 9mm are cheap so even if @%$# goes wrong in a T5, I'm still coming out aces loot wise compared to resource expenditure.

 

My statement was only about the pipe pistol, not pistols in general. When playing AGI I usually have a pistol with me for the whole game (for the times I want to do less perfect but faster stealth cleaning).

With the current stealth balance I would say this might not be the case anymore but I also think the current stealth balance will probably get some adjustments.

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[ktr]

6 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

My statement was only about the pipe pistol, not pistols in general. When playing AGI I usually have a pistol with me for the whole game (for the times I want to do less perfect but faster stealth cleaning).

With the current stealth balance I would say this might not be the case anymore but I also think the current stealth balance will probably get some adjustments.

 

Ah, gotcha! My bad. 

Really? What do you think will get changed?

[meganoth]

Just now, ktr said:

Ah, gotcha! My bad. 

Really? What do you think will get changed?

 

People seem to have wildly different experiences with stealth, so I'm far from sure. But what I witnessed was that even drawing the string of a bow in the vicinity of a standard zombie with stealth perk at 2 or 3 at night (with night vision on) causes that zombie to run wildly around. I tried it multiple times with the same result.

 

I was up in the rafters, so I don't know if the zombie actually knows where I was or if he was merely "active".  But this seems to me an indication that the stealth perk does not have enough value to really perk into it.

 

I have two parallel games running, a SP and a MP game. In the SP i play AGI, in the other a PER build. I don't feel any difference when I stealth in both games.

 

 

[Krougal]

35 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

People seem to have wildly different experiences with stealth, so I'm far from sure. But what I witnessed was that even drawing the string of a bow in the vicinity of a standard zombie with stealth perk at 2 or 3 at night (with night vision on) causes that zombie to run wildly around. I tried it multiple times with the same result.

 

I was up in the rafters, so I don't know if the zombie actually knows where I was or if he was merely "active".  But this seems to me an indication that the stealth perk does not have enough value to really perk into it.

 

I have two parallel games running, a SP and a MP game. In the SP i play AGI, in the other a PER build. I don't feel any difference when I stealth in both games.

 

 

That's pretty interesting actually. Hopefully they do something about it, because it sounds like something is not right.

Makes me glad I haven't invested any points into stealth this time around.

[Vaeliorin]

On 1/2/2022 at 3:57 PM, Krougal said:

The wooden bow is a waste of space.

It wouldn't be if they were more common and dropped earlier.  But I almost never seem to get one before I find a compound bow, and bow parts are so rare that making one is pretty much out of the question.

 

Granted, if I specced into archery earlier, that might be a thing.  But Mining/Farming/Stamina come first, always.

[Krougal]

8 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

It wouldn't be if they were more common and dropped earlier.  But I almost never seem to get one before I find a compound bow, and bow parts are so rare that making one is pretty much out of the question.

 

Granted, if I specced into archery earlier, that might be a thing.  But Mining/Farming/Stamina come first, always.

Oh bow parts are common, just not when you actually need them. I forget my GS but I'm lvl 50+, doing t5 quests and I seem to find a lot of bow parts right now in the skyscrapers. Most parts seem somewhat rare but I think the wooden bow feeling somewhat rarer than other t1 means even less parts since scrapping low ql t1 and 2 weapons seems to be the best source of parts.

 

Compound bow often is late for me, especially if I actually want one, then I find one after I gave up on it and chose another path (like I've already got decent ql t2 & 3 guns of all flavors, @%$# the bow at this point). This is why I am firmly opposed to any nerfing of or making it more "tier 3".

 

The wooden bow, I tend to start finding them early enough I suppose (although still a bit rare) but a ql3 or 4 wood bow doesn't seem like enough of an upgrade over a ql6 prim, especially when you can repair that prim with plain old wood, which everyone should always have some on them.

[Mahnogard]

3 hours ago, Krougal said:

Oh bow parts are common, just not when you actually need them.

It's true of so many things in this game, isn't it?  I swear sometimes it's like the game knows. LOL I was wanting bow parts to make a wooden bow and found 1, then I got a compound bow (q3) from Rekt as a T3 reward and immediately started finding more bow parts. I also expect to find a beaker soon since I went ahead and bought a chem station last night.

[Belgarion32]

On 1/3/2022 at 5:17 PM, meganoth said:

People seem to have wildly different experiences with stealth, so I'm far from sure. But what I witnessed was that even drawing the string of a bow in the vicinity of a standard zombie with stealth perk at 2 or 3 at night (with night vision on) causes that zombie to run wildly around. I tried it multiple times with the same result.

 

I was up in the rafters, so I don't know if the zombie actually knows where I was or if he was merely "active".  But this seems to me an indication that the stealth perk does not have enough value to really perk into it.

 

I have two parallel games running, a SP and a MP game. In the SP i play AGI, in the other a PER build. I don't feel any difference when I stealth in both games.

I'm on the other end, I have no points in stealth and I'm usually able to hit a plug open often and they'll stay asleep most the time. I love that arrows open cabinet plugs lol.

 

What I've noticed is there seems to be a little difference between some of the zombies in the POIs where there are marked areas where they will hear you even while crouched and others you can fully stealth. I suspect those ones are programmed to just come out if a player hits a certain point in the room as a trap and they usually wake/go to attack faster. I'm running ST/INT on a SP and with a jack of trades/minor INT focus on MP and the experience between the two has been consistent for me.

 

With a bow, I'm usually able to take out 3-4 in a loot room before I'm sensed but I think if I allowed the heat map to cool and took my time I could drop them all. I've also experienced that remembering to turn the headlamp mod off and on makes a fair difference indoors and in open areas, distance is big factor - although admittedly, I am not super great with the arrow drop and some still take multiple hits. If you're far enough away and you stay crouched without hitting them a second time they can lose sense of you even if they came closer to your location. I had one stop within 10m of my character when he 'lost' me.

[Krougal]

3 minutes ago, Belgarion32 said:

I'm on the other end, I have no points in stealth and I'm usually able to hit a plug open often and they'll stay asleep most the time. I love that arrows open cabinet plugs lol.

 

What I've noticed is there seems to be a little difference between some of the zombies in the POIs where there are marked areas where they will hear you even while crouched and others you can fully stealth. I suspect those ones are programmed to just come out if a player hits a certain point in the room as a trap and they usually wake/go to attack faster. I'm running ST/INT on a SP and with a jack of trades/minor INT focus on MP and the experience between the two has been consistent for me.

 

With a bow, I'm usually able to take out 3-4 in a loot room before I'm sensed but I think if I allowed the heat map to cool and took my time I could drop them all. I've also experienced that remembering to turn the headlamp mod off and on makes a fair difference indoors and in open areas, distance is big factor - although admittedly, I am not super great with the arrow drop and some still take multiple hits. If you're far enough away and you stay crouched without hitting them a second time they can lose sense of you even if they came closer to your location. I had one stop within 10m of my character when he 'lost' me.

Uhhhh....where to start.

Plug? I'm guessing you mean those thin walls on the zed hiding spots? Yeah, I guess plug is as good a term as any.

 

There's some debate about sleeper volumes and auto-aggro and what state of update the POIs are in and it's too much for me to go into, there are some multi-page threads about stealth issues, probably still on page 2 of this forum section. I was more well versed on the subject in A19 but I have only had a passing interest since A20. Just ask @Viktoriusiii and he'll be happy to chew your ear off about it.

 

The heat map solely determines screamer spawns. While light does affect stealth, it doesn't make a difference if you are shooting them across room boundaries (which you probably typically are).  When I play stealth I usually go through with a silenced 9mm with a weapons flashlight on it and that sucker is always on. Now the situation you describe (losing them again) it is most certainly helpful that you are turning your light out.

[Boidster]

16 hours ago, Krougal said:

While light does affect stealth, it doesn't make a difference if you are shooting them across room boundaries (which you probably typically are).

 

Technically, light won't affect your stealth for a sleeper volume which you aren't in. Possibly that sleeper volume does start in the next room, but there are plenty of POIs which have volumes covering many rooms. Simpler POIs might have a single volume covering the entire shack/house, including different floors. In such POIs, the visibility of the player affects every sleeper in the volume, subject to line-of-sight.

 

Don't think that just because that sleeping zombie is through a doorway in a different room that it isn't in the same volume you are in, or that it won't detect changes in visibility/sound.

[Rotor]

/tangent

 

RNGeezus is terrible mistress :).

 

I am new.  Last night I started a new game same 10k seed map that I've done the previous 6 starts.  Except this time I looted a bag that gave me a schem for a forge.  I have never even sniff'd its presence before.  Then I died on day seven for being stupid......well not really, but trusting a wood building that until that event all basic wood buildings have proven to get me through the first horde night.  Weird as hell since I have horde block damage at 50%.

 

The raging debate for me, is whether to restart because I died or keep going because I have a schematic that through all my noob playing time have not seen before.  I have gone as far as day 35 on one of my previous games.

 

Not sure this is relevant to topic though, but odd to me the question in my head on what would drive me a to a new game.  It is not the possibility of a new adventure, but the possibility of long play without a much needed tool.

 

Maybe I am being unrealistic on whether or not I should know how to put some bricks together, etc.  Maybe my character just got out of middle school :).  I now there are mods to start with more basic knowledge, but argh!

 

/end tangent