Should repair be changed to fix the game economy?

[Solomon]

So i think that changing the repair process ingame would make an excellent way to balance early gameplay without messing with the loot system.

 

I have to main ideas for how to fix the issue but if you have another option we could choose feel free to say it. In both versions stone tools stay unaffected because they are not supposed to be hard to repair and/or replace.

 

 

Option A: Restricting the entire repair system

 

First repair by hand is only possible with repair packs but repair packs are now rare and expensive items. Seriously we dont need them raining down on us.

 

Their drop chance should be around 5% max to make sure they are rare items what you cant just amass like you currently do, to reflect this a repair kit now needs the following to be crafted:

 

• 10 Forged Iron
• 20 Oil
• 10 Duct tape
• 50 Mechanical Parts
• 50 Electrical Parts
• Claw Hammer
• Wrench

 

The trader also seels this item for 5000 Dukes to reflect the increased costs to make a repair pack.

 

At the base you can repair ANY item at the workbench costing parts and or raw materials. All repairs should follow a basic formula when they have parts [ 10 parts for repair at T1 and +10 parts for every tier above 1 ] and for raw materials it should take a certain amount of raw materials.

 

For example:

 

Repair cost of a T4 Claw hammer:

• 20 Forged Iron (5 at T1 and +5/tier)
• 8 Wood (2 at T1 and +2/tier)

 

Repair cost of a T6 M60:

• 60 Machine Gun parts (10 at T1 and +10/tier)

 

If someone maxes out the relevant perk to the items they can gain a 10% decrease for those repairs and with the addition of some books these costs could be further made cheaper in the endgame.

 

 

Option B: Repairing causes items to degrade what can be upgraded back.

 

 

This version is made to create a gameplay loop where you use an item till it "breaks", repair it and once you are in a safe spot fix it up to its previous or an even higher tier.

 

T1 to T5 is all upgradeable by using a certain amount of weapon parts, to upgrade a T3 gear to T5 you would need to get 20 more parts or the specific raw materials for it. You can only upgrade to the highest amount your perks allow.

 

T6 items would be only upgradeable by a Trader to keep the items uncraftable by players.

 

The amount needed for the upgrade varies on how much you let it degrade, its cheaper to spend 10 parts on a gun because it gone from T4 to T3 then go and spend 40 because you let it go all the way back into T1.

 

 

What is your opinion about these and in general do you think the ingame economy of loot could by fixed by changing up how repair works?

[Liesel Weppen]

Similar to B, but it should not downgrade the tier, nor should you be able to upgrade a tier. If you can craft only T4 yet, you should not be able to upgrade to T5. And why should you upgrade a T3 to a T4, if the upgrade costs more than crafting a new T4?

 

A basic repair, what should require maybe 2-3 parts, simply should reduce the durability. After some repairs you will not use it anymore, because it breaks too often because of its low durability. Repairkits in opposite should be rarer/expensive to craft and repair without durability loss. No option to restore already lost durability. The idea of this is, that you can not use an item once found forever OR at least it is expensive to maintain the item usable. So you have to decide if you want to lower the usability of an item by cheap repair or spend more ressources to keep it in good condition. Or maybe you stop using your good assault rifle until you found/can afford another repair kit.

[Kalen]

23 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

A basic repair, what should require maybe 2-3 parts, simply should reduce the durability. After some repairs you will not use it anymore, because it breaks too often because of its low durability

I always advocated reducing QL but this might be a better idea.... nice one!

[Liesel Weppen]

32 minutes ago, Kalen said:

I always advocated reducing QL but this might be a better idea.... nice one!

Yeah, that had worked well with the 600 quality levels back then. (i'm not even sure if it lowered the quality or it lowered durability, or even both?) But with the just 6 levels now, imho it is too much backdraw.

So if you e.g. find your first blunderbuss you can't even repair it once, because to what should it downgrade then? T0? Or found a T2 and once you have to repair it first it immediately downgrades to a T1, like the other 5 blunderbuss you already have anyway?

[Solomon]

20 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Yeah, that had worked well with the 600 quality levels back then. (i'm not even sure if it lowered the quality or it lowered durability, or even both?) But with the just 6 levels now, imho it is too much backdraw.

So if you e.g. find your first blunderbuss you can't even repair it once, because to what should it downgrade then? T0? Or found a T2 and once you have to repair it first it immediately downgrades to a T1, like the other 5 blunderbuss you already have anyway?

I try to exclude all stone gear by default but your comment really does show a problem.

Most guns are great even at T1 only melee weapons become staggeringly weak at T1 when traditionally they have the most dangerous gamestyle.

 

How does it sound that each repair puts on a stacking damage debuff on the weapons? 1% per stack for guns and 0.5% for melee?

This way till you properly repair your stuff it does not only just degraded back into a lower tier but also becomes progressively weaker with each repair and this would work the best with Option B suggestion.

[Rince]

Nooo! At least the game have a repair system that I like and you want to change it already?

[Kalen]

6 minutes ago, Rince said:

Nooo! At least the game have a repair system that I like and you want to change it already?

eh, the current repair system isn't very good.   There are no negative repercussions for repairing an item (such as degradation) and repair kits are so plentiful that I've never been in a situation where I haven't had more than enough.   So all the current system does is make it so every now and then I have to stop what I'm doing to click "repair".  Not very engaging. 

 

A good system should encourage meaningful choices.   With the current system there are none... it's just busy work.

[Rince]

Just now, Kalen said:

eh, the current repair system isn't very good.   There are no negative repercussions for repairing an item (such as degradation) and repair kits are so plentiful that I've never been in a situation where I haven't had more than enough.   So all the current system does is make it so every now and then I have to stop what I'm doing to click "repair".  Not very engaging. 

 

A good system should encourage meaningful choices.   With the current system there are none... it's just busy work.

Why weapons would degrade? I mean, if I can make a new one I surely can repair one without making a big mess. (Unless we're talking about real life, in that case I always can make a mess, but that's not the point here!).

 

And sure, it's busywork. But at least isn't super annoying busywork. I remember that before was super annoying busywork.

And is engaging when you forget to repair and have those moments of "Oh crap! My weapon broke and the zombies are eating my face!! NO! NO! THE FACE NO!!!" Not saying that this happened to me the last blood moon horde with my 9mm gun. Not at all. (And the sledghammer is a blessing by the way).

[Kalen]

6 minutes ago, Rince said:

Why weapons would degrade? I mean, if I can make a new one I surely can repair one without making a big mess. (Unless we're talking about real life, in that case I always can make a mess, but that's not the point here!).

I would be fine if you could only repair up to the quality you could craft.   But now, you can repair a Q5 item even if you can only craft Q2.  Degradation should exist for game play reasons, though.  Items shouldn't last forever.... forcing you to chose when you should use specific items and encouraging you to keep looting to find eventual replacements or invest in crafting.

 

6 minutes ago, Rince said:

And sure, it's busywork. But at least isn't super annoying busywork. I remember that before was super annoying busywork.

The work you put in is exactly the same as previous alphas.... you click repair and you're done.   Not sure why the effort to repair would be more annoying before than it is now.

 

6 minutes ago, Rince said:

And is engaging when you forget to repair and have those moments of "Oh crap! My weapon broke and the zombies are eating my face!! NO! NO! THE FACE NO!!!" Not saying that this happened to me the last blood moon horde with my 9mm gun. Not at all. (And the sledghammer is a blessing by the way).

Which would be great if you couldn't actually repair items while fighting.   The few times this has happened to me, I just have to quickly open my inventory, click repair, and in like 5 seconds the problem is gone.  

[Liesel Weppen]

1 hour ago, Rince said:

Why weapons would degrade? I mean, if I can make a new one I surely can repair one without making a big mess. (Unless we're talking about real life, in that case I always can make a mess, but that's not the point here!).

Weapons do degrade and become damaged. For an M60 e.g. the barrels can overheat and then get a twist. This can not be repaired, not even by experts. The barrel is a high precision part that requires high precision to craft it, if it isn't that precise anymore this can't be fixed. You can melt the barrel and craft a new barrel from the ressources. And there is the point: What quality you craft is limited by your skills, but repairs is not. You can only craft a T2 but once you've found a T5 you can use it forever, because you are able to repair it anyway.

Throughout the last versions i never cared for any crafting skills, because sooner or later you find a high quality item (or buy it from the trader) and can use it forever. No need at all to craft any tool or weapong by yourself.

[RipClaw]

2 hours ago, Kalen said:

... and encouraging you to keep looting to find eventual replacements or invest in crafting.

You mean to force the player to keep looting. Encouraging would be to say: "What you have works well, but maybe there is something better out there".

And by the way, it wouldn't matter if I invest points into crafting because I have to go looting anyway to get the parts.

 

[Kalen]

8 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

You mean to force the player to keep looting. Encouraging would be to say: "What you have works well, but maybe there is something better out there".

And by the way, it wouldn't matter if I invest points into crafting because I have to go looting anyway to get the parts.

 

Nope, encourage.... you could always make do with what you can craft.   In my current game, I dont really have to loot at all anymore if I don't want to.   I've got mostly Q6 gear and more than enough repair kits.   IMO, in a game such as this, looting should always be a necessity and it just isn't currently.

[RipClaw]

2 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Nope, encourage.... you could always make do with what you can craft.

Without the parts you can't craft anything at all. Even if you already have the schematics.

 

If your idea of degradation becomes a reality, then every piece of equipment would be so broken at some point that you would have to make a new one. But without parts that is not possible. Crafting would only allow me to make something higher quality out of several weapons or tools of low quality or from looted parts as long as parts can not be crafted.

13 minutes ago, Kalen said:

In my current game, I dont really have to loot at all anymore if I don't want to.

So you complain that you are no longer forced to loot.

15 minutes ago, Kalen said:

IMO, in a game such as this, looting should always be a necessity and it just isn't currently.

That is your opinion. My opinion is that at some point the player should be so far in self-sufficiency that he is free of it.

 

What you might not have thought of is that there are players for whom looting is not the part of the game they enjoy most. Just because you enjoy looting doesn't mean that other players enjoy it as well. I enjoy mining, but I know that a lot of players do not enjoy it at all. So I would never demand that the game be changed in such a way that everyone is forced to do mining.

[Kalen]

2 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Without the parts you can't craft anything at all. Even if you already have the schematics.

 

If your idea of degradation becomes a reality, then every piece of equipment would be so broken at some point that you would have to make a new one. But without parts that is not possible. Crafting would only allow me to make something higher quality out of several weapons or tools of low quality or from looted parts as long as parts can not be crafted.

In my experience this is not a problem.... I have enough parts to make dozens of items.   

In my perfect world, item durability would be increased quite a bit.... items should last a decent amount of time.   But yes, eventually they'd wear out.... this happens in real life too, never mind in a zombie apocalypse.

 

5 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

So you complain that you are no longer forced to loot.

Straw man... I never complained about being forced or not forced to loot.   I'm stating that looting has become unnecessary in pretty much every play through I've had.   This is not a good thing.

 

6 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

That is your opinion. My opinion is that at some point the player should be so far in self-sufficiency that he is free of it.

 

What you might not have thought of is that there are players for whom looting is not the part of the game they enjoy most. Just because you enjoy looting doesn't mean that other players enjoy it as well. I enjoy mining, but I know that a lot of players do not enjoy it at all. So I would never demand that the game be changed in such a way that everyone is forced to do mining.

Of course, everything here is opinion.

 

Its got nothing to do which what I enjoy vs what you enjoy.... I actually don't love looting all that much, which is why I stopped doing it so much in my current game... its got to do with what makes sense for a game of this type.   If you can reach a point of self sufficiency the game is essentially over.   Sure, you can continue to do things for the sake of doing them, but that doesn't make a very compelling game unless the game was designed for that type of game play (such as Minecraft).

 

And you're making another straw man there.... I'm not demanding anything.   I'm giving my opinion on how I'd like to see things.   I'm perfectly happy with how the game is progressing as is... but if an opinion is asked for, such as in this thread, I'm going to give it.   You can certainly continue to give your own opinion, which I respect, I just don't agree with it.

[seagas]

Rather than a repair kit, how about items that require a repair kit, can only be repaired at a work bench and require the same materials in a proportional amount. For upgrade, just build a new one up to the level have the skill for and sell the old one to trader.

[Rince]

Well, I would like as end goal to being completely self sufficient.

Maybe it's not realistic, but it's cool. I want to rebuild the civilization!! With myself as the all powerful, wise and mighty Empress of course!

 

But I also like to always have the choice to loot. I remember playing older alphas as nomad, just wandering around and using whatever I found, and surviving whatever I could. (Maybe I did so I would't be bothered with never finding the forge recipe... maybe not...)

 

As I already said, finding at least your dream T6 weapon/tool and losing it in a while because degradation sounds, pretty terrible to be honest.

In my previous game I was by day... one hundred and... twenty maybe? And I still haven't all T6. And I do missions and loot around quite a bit!

[Liesel Weppen]

2 minutes ago, seagas said:

Rather than a repair kit, how about items that require a repair kit, can only be repaired at a work bench and require the same materials in a proportional amount.

That would make it a bit more complicated, requires more planning... what imho is good. But you can still use one item forever under every circumstances. So once you found a t6 item, you will never have to craft such an item again.

2 minutes ago, Rince said:

As I already said, finding at least your dream T6 weapon/tool and losing it in a while because degradation sounds, pretty terrible to be honest.

But on the other hand it becomes boring once you found a T6 because you will never need to craft or put effort in that kind of item again.

[RipClaw]

18 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

That would make it a bit more complicated, requires more planning... what imho is good.

I have to repair my main weapon 2-3 times per horde. That means i would either have 2 replacement weapons in my inventory and swap them when one is broken or i would have to have a workbench in my horde base and the horde would have to take a break while i go to the workbench.

13 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

So once you found a t6 item, you will never have to craft such an item again.

Unless you lose it, which can happen due to bugs. In A17 half of my base disappeared and so did everything that was in it including all my ammo, my weapons and my money. 😪

 

That's why I always have a replacement in a chest just in case.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

51 minutes ago, Kalen said:

but that doesn't make a very compelling game unless the game was designed for that type of game play (such as Minecraft).

Minecraft wasn't "designed" for that. Minecraft didn't have a "design" at all, it was feasibility study if making a modifiable voxel world works done by notch. And the early betas didn't have real content, nor an "end", just like 7d2d nowadays.

Because many many people can't stand such kind of "endless" games, later the ender dragon was added as a final boss and a common thread you need to follow to reach it, to give the game an "end".

1 minute ago, RipClaw said:

I have to repair my main weapon 2-3 times per horde. That means i would either have 2 replacement weapons in my inventory and swap them when one is broken or i would have to have a workbench in my horde base and the horde would have to take a break while i go to the workbench.

As i said, it makes it a little bit more complicated and requires more planning.

 

1 minute ago, RipClaw said:

That's why I always have a replacement in a chest just in case.

I do too, but i don't consider loss of items due to bugs as game content.

[Kalen]

13 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Minecraft wasn't "designed" for that. Minecraft didn't have a "design" at all, it was feasibility study if making a modifiable voxel world works done by notch. And the early betas didn't have real content, nor an "end", just like 7d2d nowadays.

Well sure, I wasn't talking about the origination of the game.... but, rather, the design choices Microsoft makes now which clearly promotes open ended game play.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

8 minutes ago, Kalen said:

but, rather, the design choices Microsoft makes now which clearly promotes open ended game play.

No they don't, they even can't, as the game has an official end. You CAN play open end, but that is not necessary.

 

Even Civilization has different "ends" and i know tons of people that especially race for that ends and probably wouldn't even play the game if it had no "ends". That doesn't mean you can't play it open ended. But some people need a given goal they have to reach. And it was added later to minecraft, too, to adress those people.

[Kalen]

1 minute ago, Liesel Weppen said:

No they don't, they even can't, as the game has an official end. You CAN play open end, but that is not necessary.

Heh, ok agree to disagree.   To me it is clearly meant to be an open ended game.   Sure there is an "end condition" that even prompts credits.... but then the game just continues.

[Liesel Weppen]

1 minute ago, Kalen said:

Heh, ok agree to disagree. 

Ok.

 

BTT: Even if someone plays for an official end, he could use a once found item until he reaches the end, no matter WHEN he found it.

ESPECIALLY if someone tends to play open end, it becomes boring, because you can use that item forever.

[pregnable]

No

[Scyris]

8 hours ago, pregnable said:

No

 

I agree with him here, it doesn't need to be changed, TFP is already taking away a ton of playstyle choices as it is, lets not give them more idea's of stuff they can take away.