Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

[Jackelmyer]

I started in alpha 15 and yes there it was already switched off because it made problems. The zombies produced holes everywhere.

 

 

This... in regards to ore distribution and zombie digging. My world around my base (within 150-200 meters) is riddled with not only holes from zombies digging, which, are ugly and hard to traverse if you go looking for the zombie to get rid of it. But also from the holes I dig at the surface to get to ore in the top 20ish blocks.

 

I have never... Had a more destroyed area of terrain... in any playthrough... ever. And it's absolutely annoying the hell out of me.

 

I've gone into a hole at least once with my mini bike.

 

I've fallen in a hole backpedaling from zombies.

 

I've gotten stuck face to face with several zombies in a stupid pit they dug because a bit of sand above them collapsed as I was trying to structure my way down to them in a way that would avoid this.

 

I've waited for zombies to dig just down to me from lower level mining. and waited... forever... listening to them beat on all the damn ore I'm trying to get at and mine. And making a mess of the terrain.

[Jackelmyer]

Well ok. But frankly if you throw out assumption like "digging is impossible" and base part of your argument on it you shouldn't be surprised to be called out on it. YOU made that assertion in this thread, not I.

 

I don't think i've stated an assumption that digging is impossible. Man... I've gone rounds with you before on probably this topic but others. What I'm not surprised is you trying to get personal with things and offensive. So... Whatever. *shrug*

 

 

Clearly your definition of what a "definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG" is different from the developers (and some other people's) definition. You seem to call for the clean ideal of pure 100% sandbox combined with 100% survival and 100% RPG. This simply is not possible (IMHO).

 

7d2d tries to fuse all these genres into a somewhat fun coherent experience. It needs to strike a balance between its parts and where this balance lies is partly subjective. So you think the balance is somewhere else, fine. It doens't mean that the tag line is wrong or isn't exactly what TFP is meaning to accomplish.

 

Even sandbox is not really a narrowly defined term. It means something different to everyone. Is 7d2d a sandbox game for me? Not a pure one, no. There is already the discrepancy that a sandbox should have no goal whatsoever and there is already one specific goal that can't be taken away in a survival game, namely to survive.

 

I had other comments on this topic...

 

* For the most part, people seemed to like the sandbox elements.

-- A17 - Lost general player support.

-- So... Sandbox is so randomly defined that it's nearly impossible for anyone to state "this is the one definition of sandbox" and be right. We've had large discussion on the definition of sandbox here in the forums, so this is just my own perception of how sandbox and 7D2D co-exist.

 

You can't actually have two opposing things.

 

An Open World Sandbox partially based game.

 

And

 

People playing EXACTLY how you want.

 

If you want them playing exactly as you want, and I mean this sincerely, use Unreal, no voxels, no destroyable world's, and build the path through the game that you want the player to go through. And that's TOTALLY FINE. There's a million of those games out there. Yours can be too.

 

Or. Go back to how you used to speak of 7D2D. Kinda like Minecraft but scary and threatening. That's what I heard in old videos. *shrug*. A voxel game, it's a great platform for it.

 

 

I don't think my definition of Sandbox was very different when I started playing this game. I don't think it's very off the mark from a general sandbox definition.

 

And I don't think I've called for a pure sandbox experience. I don't think A16 was pure sandbox. But when the game defines itself "the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first", you bet your bucket I do expect the game to be strongly a sandbox game. Which... I think A16 was a much stronger sandbox game than A17.

 

And "where this balance lies is partly subjective" is 100% and extremely subjective. Which is why we all argue so dang much here. lol. Tis the nature of this beast.

[RestInPieces]

Yeah they quote the combination of other game modes, but they explicitly call out sandbox, survival, and RPG in the final call-out quote, leading one to believe those three are the emphasized genres above all the others.

 

Not emphasized does not mean negligible. Even if TD was negligible, what difference would it make - it still says "survival" - aka "a game in which the player is set to try to survive". What can you see under the forum 7D logo? "The survival horde crafting game" - should I use that to claim that they are more emphasized than others? The game's description is still what it is.

 

My stop it response was specifically targeting your statement that "this is not a sandbox game". That's been said by you and others.

 

The game doesn't need a "sandbox friendly mode". It is a sandbox game.

 

But when a developer says "Play the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first", I take it that this is, specifically, a sandbox game. And it would be very nice if people stopped throwing out false statements, especially on this point. Or. It would be nice for TFP to update their game definition.

 

If you *really* want to believe it is a sandbox game and not just a game with sandbox elements, I can't change your mind. The reason this game contains the word "sandbox" in its description is its voxel and open-ended elements in the first place. Sandbox elements are pretty dominant already in this game. So, not a false statement at all. You choosing to deliberately ignore the other genres, or the game's own description, doesn't mean that they don't exist, yes?

 

And since more than one genre exists in the description, you do understand that the "sandbox" part can't render the survival/td/rpg part meaningless and that it must work/synergize with it. Because, again, the game can't work as a pure sandbox (no rules/restrictions/gates etc) AND an rpg/survival/TD. In the case of underground bases, god mode on demand rendered any TD/survival elements meaningless. Along the same lines, some people in the past have complained that everything should be available from the start because "sandbox".

 

It is common sense that a genre combination should take elements from each genre that are able to work together, so I do not even know why this has to be explained. Hell, the developers themselves have replied to this topic and said the same thing. Why are you not content with asking for additional options and insist that the base game should be changed along the lines of a sandbox game and not a sandbox rpg survival (td) game?

 

Btw - I'd prefer another alternative to an underground threat other than zombies digging, as I agree that it can become aesthetically displeasing and glitchy.

[Maynard69]

This... in regards to ore distribution and zombie digging. My world around my base (within 150-200 meters) is riddled with not only holes from zombies digging, which, are ugly and hard to traverse if you go looking for the zombie to get rid of it. But also from the holes I dig at the surface to get to ore in the top 20ish blocks.

 

I have never... Had a more destroyed area of terrain... in any playthrough... ever. And it's absolutely annoying the hell out of me.

 

I've gone into a hole at least once with my mini bike.

 

I've fallen in a hole backpedaling from zombies.

 

I've gotten stuck face to face with several zombies in a stupid pit they dug because a bit of sand above them collapsed as I was trying to structure my way down to them in a way that would avoid this.

 

I've waited for zombies to dig just down to me from lower level mining. and waited... forever... listening to them beat on all the damn ore I'm trying to get at and mine. And making a mess of the terrain.

 

You would think that you would put wood frames over the holes by now.

[Jackelmyer]

 

If you *really* want to believe it is a sandbox game and not just a game with sandbox elements, I can't change your mind. The reason this game contains the word "sandbox" in its description is its voxel and open-ended elements in the first place. Sandbox elements are pretty dominant already in this game. So, not a false statement at all. You choosing to deliberately ignore the other genres, or the game's own description, doesn't mean that they don't exist, yes?

 

And since more than one genre exists in the description, you do understand that the "sandbox" part can't render the survival/td/rpg part meaningless and that it must work/synergize with it. Because, again, the game can't work as a pure sandbox (no rules/restrictions/gates etc) AND an rpg/survival/TD. In the case of underground bases, god mode on demand rendered any TD/survival elements meaningless. Along the same lines, some people in the past have complained that everything should be available from the start because "sandbox".

 

It is common sense that a genre combination should take elements from each genre that are able to work together, so I do not even know why this has to be explained.

 

 

So... just to try and put this Sandbox bit to rest a bit. I'm am not calling for this to be a pure Sandbox Game. However... To say "this is not a sandbox game" is also incredibly wrong.

 

This is a sandbox game. It is also a survival game. It is also an FPS game. It is also a tower defense game. It is also an RPG... ish... game. My issue is that the sandbox element, to me, took a hit in A17.

 

To me, Linear game play is the very opposite of sandbox. Now, I'm not saying A17 went linear. But I think it went in a more linear direction. By making choices harder, out of reach, or heavily gated.

 

I'm all for hard choices. Do I have a burrito today or do I have sushi? That is actually a hard choice sometimes. I'm not... in the mood for my game to contain forced choices.

 

"Do I pay to replace my transmission and push my dream of owning a house further today or do I purchase a new car and push my dream of owning a house even further today?".

 

I don't want to do either of those. But I have to do one. Forced choices, we hate in real life. Why the heck would we want them in a sandbox elemented game?

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

You would think that you would put wood frames over the holes by now.

 

I do. And upgrade them. Just to make it a bit harder for a zombie to dig through again. Even still. I forget to. And even when I do, it's always fun to run into my stupid frames while I'm mini-biking home. >.<

 

I like my world to remain a world. As opposed to some tom and jerry swiss cheese planet.

[Maynard69]

There is a pretty simple work around though. Put your stuff above ground, and mine away from your base, somewhere you dont mind holes and can avoid the area on your bike.

[PoppaTot]

There is a pretty simple work around though. Put your stuff above ground, and mine away from your base, somewhere you dont mind holes and can avoid the area on your bike.

 

This is exactly what people are arguing about. They don't want to be forced to that. I genuinely don't care if zombies dig because I have had no problems with mining in A17+. Also, I've always felt that underground bases are boring, I enjoy the higher-ground advantage. I still don't see why it would be an issue to just put a toggle on it though. Who really cares how someone else plays. Heck, they already gave an option for no blood moons lmao.

[RestInPieces]

So... just to try and put this Sandbox bit to rest a bit. I'm am not calling for this to be a pure Sandbox Game. However... To say "this is not a sandbox game" is also incredibly wrong.

 

This is a sandbox game. It is also a survival game. It is also an FPS game. It is also a tower defense game. It is also an RPG... ish... game. My issue is that the sandbox element, to me, took a hit in A17.

 

To me, Linear game play is the very opposite of sandbox. Now, I'm not saying A17 went linear. But I think it went in a more linear direction. By making choices harder, out of reach, or heavily gated.

 

I'm all for hard choices. Do I have a burrito today or do I have sushi? That is actually a hard choice sometimes. I'm not... in the mood for my game to contain forced choices.

 

"Do I pay to replace my transmission and push my dream of owning a house further today or do I purchase a new car and push my dream of owning a house even further today?".

 

I don't want to do either of those. But I have to do one. Forced choices, we hate in real life. Why the heck would we want them in a sandbox elemented game?

 

I am essentially saying the same thing and I love choices - the more the better. But in order for a choice to be meaningful it has to be a tough one - else it is "an obvious" one.

 

For example in the underground case it was an obvious one. Despite wanting to live underground, I had to restrain myself from going there (even tried to avoid mining), because it was akin to turning god mode on, made any survival efforts meaningless etc. As a player, having bought a survival, rpg, TD, sandbox game, I did not have a real choice between underground/above ground.

 

Some elements must take a hit for others to work sometimes, because they are inherently incompatible. For that particular case though, I would prefer a dynamic environmental danger which mostly involved "cost", proportionate to the above ground risk, for a change of above/below ground gameplay.

 

I still don't see why it would be an issue to just put a toggle on it though. Who really cares how someone else plays. Heck, they already gave an option for no blood moons lmao.

 

Don't think anyone disagrees with a toggle.

[meganoth]

I already had a screamer with her horde of feral and radioactive zombie in one of my mines. That was no fun.

 

In my iron mine which is only 15 blocks under the surface I had multiple visits vom screamers.

 

To prevent that in the future I placed a auto turret at the entrance. As long as the mine was relatively close to the surface I was able to use the zombie's pathfinding against them and lure them directly into a trap. What it looks like when the mine goes deeper I will see then.

 

Clearly you adapted. Getting cornered down there isn't very much different than getting cornered in one of the dungeon pois, right? This is the survival part kicking in and vanilla will have that survival part, if that isn't fun for someone he has to mod or change options. That is my point.

 

The only part that can be talked about (in vanilla!) is the frequency or serverity you get attacked underground.

 

You follow the resources that you mine and that are randomly distributed and accordingly it is hardly possible to plan a defense here like with a base.

 

There is also the possibility to look at surface gravel spots and mine top down. It is the safer way as you can fortify the perimeter on the mine lip and it is easier to keep an escape route operating. Not sure if surface spots works flawlessly yet, but RWG is redone anyway, this is not the final version.

 

It also doesn't help to build doors because the zombies dig their way from the top to you and don't take the entrance.

I have taken a close look at the behavior of zombies in the underground. They behave differently than on the surface. For example, they dig past a pit instead of trying to jump over it. And if a way to you is longer than about 30 blocks then they dig down to you from above instead of using a free entrance.

 

It depends if they reach your tunnel directly above you or behind you. If directly above you get a bad surprise but you can run out. If behind you and you can reach a door, you can slip through and run out through the parallel tunnel. The doors can be just wood and are there just to give you a few seconds. I haven't tried this strategy yet (I must confess), someone else reported it worked for him.

 

Barbed wire has the unpleasant characteristic that you get stuck on it yourself in a critical situation.

 

The best way to fend off the zombies so far has been with the shotgun and then try to escape or get a position above the zombies.

 

 

Barbed wire is for cases where you are cornered. When running out is not possible the wire will give you the time to shoot them or even throw molotovs if you dare . I agree, the shotgun is ideal for this situation

 

Besides you hear nothing if you dig with the auger. It is too loud. If you are lucky you notice that something falls down from above but in the dark it is hardly perceptible.

 

This is a critical part. If you use an auger you have to add listening breaks at appropriate intervalls. At the moment it just draws too many screamers.

I would use the steel pickaxe for digging those surveyor tunnels (it isn't that far behind the auger in effectiveness) and use the auger if I find an ore vein but only after putting some defense on the ground above. Our experience with a top down mine suggest the auger should only be used with defenses up if used near to surface. Near bedrock we have no problem using auger at all.

 

Mining is possible but it's not as much fun as it used to be.

 

Wouldn't it be possible to dig at bedrock if you want a "laid back meditative" experience? Less ores to find there, sure, but also less attention to safety necessary. We have found ore veins there too. And just going up a few blocks makes you find much more veins without increasing danger that much and increasing detection time for you considerably.

[PoppaTot]

Don't think anyone disagrees with a toggle.

 

So far it appears like TFPs do. This has been a topic since A17.0e and I don't recall (honestly) any devs saying that it is on the table?

[RestInPieces]

So far it appears like TFPs do. This has been a topic since A17.0e and I don't recall (honestly) any devs saying that it is on the table?

 

No worries, it took only 17 alphas for random blood moons to be confirmed and implemented, since they were requested.

[meganoth]

I don't think i've stated an assumption that digging is impossible. Man... I've gone rounds with you before on probably this topic but others. What I'm not surprised is you trying to get personal with things and offensive. So... Whatever. *shrug*

 

If it sounds like I'm getting personal or offensive, then sorry, not my intention. Our problem may be that I have a much different viewpoint than you and well, my axioms and even definition of concepts and words seem much different than yours.

 

And yes, "digging is impossible" is a too lazy shortening of "TFP has killed underground or forced us to avoid underground", a mistake of answering too fast, I substituted your original words for them. Doesn't change the rest of my reply.

 

I had other comments on this topic...

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think my definition of Sandbox was very different when I started playing this game. I don't think it's very off the mark from a general sandbox definition.

 

And I don't think I've called for a pure sandbox experience. I don't think A16 was pure sandbox. But when the game defines itself "the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first", you bet your bucket I do expect the game to be strongly a sandbox game. Which... I think A16 was a much stronger sandbox game than A17.

 

And "where this balance lies is partly subjective" is 100% and extremely subjective. Which is why we all argue so dang much here. lol. Tis the nature of this beast.

 

Ok, as you say "this is just my own perception of how sandbox and 7D2D co-exist ". == subjective, right? But is your definition of "the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first" subjective or objective? If the first, why should TFP change the tag line or the game when their definition is different? And if objective, we have to argue some dang more here

 

I could turn your words around and say : But when the game defines itself "the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first", you bet your bucket I do expect the game to be strongly a survival game. Where does that get us? It only shows us that 7d2d is equally not a perfect or complete survival game. But when you look for games that are combinations of survival AND sandbox, well, er, nothing better around. It is a compromise.

 

 

So... just to try and put this Sandbox bit to rest a bit. I'm am not calling for this to be a pure Sandbox Game. However... To say "this is not a sandbox game" is also incredibly wrong.

 

This is a sandbox game. It is also a survival game. It is also an FPS game. It is also a tower defense game. It is also an RPG... ish... game. My issue is that the sandbox element, to me, took a hit in A17.

 

And maybe it isn't helpful to compare a current version with old versions. Assume that A18 were to remove some perks because the RPG element prevented a sandbox feature to work? Would it make sense for players who like RPG features to now protest because the RPG element took a hit?

[JCrook1028]

No worries, it took only 17 alphas for random blood moons to be confirmed and implemented, since they were requested.

 

Not 17. Bloodmoons were not in the game at all when it started so no one was asking for randoms.

[RestInPieces]

Not 17. Bloodmoons were not in the game at all when it started so no one was asking for randoms.

 

Can you not spoil my hyperbole with your boring facts?

[PoppaTot]

Can you not spoil my hyperbole with your boring facts?

 

You just got "shammed"... I'm making this a thing, it will catch on lmao

[Jackelmyer]

Huh. I thought devs said Digging was getting a setting. Guess more Dev diary digging.

[RestInPieces]

You just got "shammed"... I'm making this a thing, it will catch on lmao

 

This is nonsense. I had never gotten "shammed" in 17 alphas worth of forum trolling!

[Jackelmyer]

This is nonsense. I had never gotten "shammed" in 17 alphas worth of forum trolling!

 

I here by Sham you. :-D

 

 

How could you not see this coming. lol

[PoppaTot]

I here by Sham you. :-D

 

 

How could you not see this coming. lol

 

BOOM! My work here is done

[RestInPieces]

I here by Sham you. :-D

 

 

How could you not see this coming. lol

BOOM! My work here is done

 

 

[Roland]

Huh. I thought devs said Digging was getting a setting. Guess more Dev diary digging.

 

The only dev comment I have seen was from faatal who said that putting that option in was not as easy or straightforward as others because it isn't just a digging tag they put on zombies. It is part of the pathing system. So it will take some extra work to do something like that.

 

For myself, I'd like to see it stay in without option until at least A18. When A17 first dropped the immediate response was that underground mining and bunkering was now impossible. Now we are getting reports of people finding out it is possible. So maybe without the option available for a time, more people who would normally just hit that toggle immediately without even trying to innovate will come to learn the Ways of the Mole and figure out how to survive in the underworld despite digging zombies.

 

But I would like to see a toggle for it eventually for sure.

[Jackelmyer]

The only dev comment I have seen was from faatal who said that putting that option in was not as easy or straightforward as others because it isn't just a digging tag they put on zombies. It is part of the pathing system. So it will take some extra work to do something like that.

 

For myself, I'd like to see it stay in without option until at least A18. When A17 first dropped the immediate response was that underground mining and bunkering was now impossible. Now we are getting reports of people finding out it is possible. So maybe without the option available for a time, more people who would normally just hit that toggle immediately without even trying to innovate will come to learn the Ways of the Mole and figure out how to survive in the underworld despite digging zombies.

 

But I would like to see a toggle for it eventually for sure.

 

I would love a toggle. Until zombies turning my world to Swiss cheese becomes a digger thing of the past, I'd like it turned off.

[Cirion]

I don't think anyone is arguing that building underground is impossible.

 

It's possible - I already know how to do it - but you have to build several layers thick, which isn't *as* big of a deal above ground, but underground it is a massive chore to do so, lots of digging, and carefully too without collapsing terrain on yourself. The payoff of building underground no longer exceeds the effort involved. IMO. That's different from saying "you can't make viable underground structures".

 

That said I do plan on eventually playing around with underground building with the new AI, but when I do, it will be via making the base in creative mode and then just inserting it into the world because the sheer scale / cost of such a project is completely prohibitive in a normal playthrough.

 

The more accurate statement is "you can't make viable underground structures in any sort of reasonable timeframe" - which does indeed eliminate most players from bothering with it.

 

I go back to my tax example. Put a 200% tax on something and see how many people buy it now. Sure it's not "banned" but might as well be. Same here, it's basically a 200% tax on effort required. This "soft ban" as I'll call it does indeed eliminate options for the sweeping majority of players.

 

There is a semi-viable partially submerged base design that would likely work, that I would base upon something I saw someone else make, but I don't count that as purely underground. When I'm talking about underground I'm thinking about bases that go pretty much to bedrock.

 

I really don't understand the arguments often made which is "well the old method of building underground was OP and too easy".... even discounting the fact you can just avoid the horde outright by running or driving all night, taking over a big POI is even easier than building underground... and often virtually as effective. and no one complains about this? Some of the biggest POI you can just camp on the roof all night, and be safe from everything (except maybe vultures). I just feel like this community is very selective in what they call OP. If the dev arguments are "we don't want people avoiding the horde" well I just named off two more ways to do so other than the old way of building underground.

 

I guess my point of the previous paragraph is be consistent. If you're going to put a soft ban on one method of cheesing the AI, then put a soft ban on all the other methods too (like fall trap bases also - they can also still be done but also got a "200% tax" applied to it). Don't just put soft bans on random stuff and leave other things in the game or it makes no sense at all to then use the argument of "well we don't want it to be too easy".

 

I mean, don't get me wrong, nerfing the ability to take over POI's or be able to run from the horde would annoy me, but at least it would make consistent sense in the grand scheme of things that you truly want us to fight the horde and not hide or run from them. I personally would actually kind of like to see a true "Tower Defense" mode where zombies, instead of targetting you, target either your bed roll or your land claim block, which makes participating in the BM horde no longer optional. I mean, it sounds like the dev's goal is to make BM horde fighting mandatory, so, that seems to be the logical approach to me.

[Roland]

The more accurate statement is "you can't make viable underground structures in any sort of reasonable timeframe" - which does indeed eliminate most players from bothering with it.

 

I don't think that is an accurate statement at all. You said you know "the way" to do it using layers but that it is prohibitive to do it. Here's a thought... your layer idea is "a way" but probably not "the way". Again, you are saying that the game has made digging essentially impossible before you have even tried it other than doing some mental exercises about how you would go about it. Others are actually doing it and "more ways" will continue to come to light.

 

 

I really don't understand the arguments often made which is "well the old method of building underground was OP and too easy".... even discounting the fact you can just avoid the horde outright by running or driving all night, taking over a big POI is even easier than building underground... and often virtually as effective. and no one complains about this? Some of the biggest POI you can just camp on the roof all night, and be safe from everything (except maybe vultures). I just feel like this community is very selective in what they call OP. If the dev arguments are "we don't want people avoiding the horde" well I just named off two more ways to do so other than the old way of building underground.

 

Not selective. Methodical. Those other ways of overly easy avoidance are next on the list. Oh, and don't think treading water above a deep lake isn't also known and planned to be dealt with as well. faatal's answer was best. When asked where the player was supposed to be able to find a safe place he said, "The Main Menu."

 

I bet that people (in their excitement over the blood moon toggle) didn't realize that with a legitimate way to turn blood moon off in the options menu for those who don't like it, TFP now has full green lights ahead for making it as horrific and ubiquitous in the game for those who choose to have it enabled. Muwahahahahahahaha!

 

 

Now maybe they'll even make it so your avatar remains in the game for a time after you log out for those gamers who log out just before BM. ;-)

 

[Cirion]

I don't think that is an accurate statement at all. You said you know "the way" to do it using layers but that it is prohibitive to do it. Here's a thought... your layer idea is "a way" but probably not "the way". Again, you are saying that the game has made digging essentially impossible before you have even tried it other than doing some mental exercises about how you would go about it. Others are actually doing it and "more ways" will continue to come to light.

 

I admit I haven't looked up what other players are doing but I really doubt they're doing it without layering it up, that's how the current AI works... I've tested it repeatedly and that is what I have found to be how the current AI works and how to work around it and there really is no other solution because otherwise, they'll break out blocks at other locations instead.

 

The bigger the base, the more layers required. In a game with a friend of mine, we took over a very large POI and found that we needed 5 or 6 layers of concrete before they finally decided to take our two long corridor entrances that we had constructed for horde killing.

 

Not selective. Methodical. Those other ways of overly easy avoidance are next on the list. Oh, and don't think treading water above a deep lake isn't also known and planned to be dealt with as well. faatal's answer was best. When asked where the player was supposed to be able to find a safe place he said, "The Main Menu."

 

I bet that people (in their excitement over the blood moon toggle) didn't realize that with a legitimate way to turn blood moon off in the options menu for those who don't like it, TFP now has full green lights ahead for making it as horrific and ubiquitous in the game for those who choose to have it enabled. Muwahahahahahahaha!

 

 

Allright, at least they're being consistent then. I appreciate that more than just picking and choosing methods they want to nerf.

 

As for the treading water comment - funnily enough, I actually am eager for swimming zombies, because this is one instance where allowing swimming zombies actually INCREASES the number of options for base building. I never bothered too much with lake building before because it was annoying, they'd always end up digging the terrain up / tearing up my supports. now maybe we can do things like castles built on a lake and then long bridges with death traps laid up all along the bridge....