Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

[Ghostlight]

I have heard that same opinion in threads all over this forum and on Steam, to say nothing of reddit or discord.

 

You've heard it. I've heard it. The posters above and and below me have heard it. My mum has heard it and she's deaf. Her dog has too, etc. The only people who have not, are TFP it seems. If I was them I'd be shi**ing bricks watching the game's reputation plummet like this. However the only conclusion is that they already have made enough cash on the game that it doesn't matter one jot to them if they never sell another copy. So it has become very much a personal vision thing and to hell with the players' needs. Sorry but that's how it feels to me.

[meganoth]

Except there was little talk of people reverting to A15 back when A16 dropped. I remember A16 being universally liked because it more or less only added new content, and great content at that (electricity for example).

 

I call that whitewashing history . A16 experimental had tons of controversy because of the removal of crafting XP. People were complaining that they don't have anything to do at night. RWG was critizised a lot (there were big holes down to bedrock if I remember correctly). Electricity was liked but not its FPS impact.

 

But that also supports your observation that adding content does not generate much controversy (apart from bugs introduced with it), changing or removing does. If TFPs main drive were not producing the game they want but the game that made the least uproar in the forums they should only add stuff.

 

But honestly, there's some pretty clear evidence and if memory serves statements that they specifically tried to kill safe underground bases. New settings are coming. But due to substantial outcry after people strongly stated their feelings against.

 

Yes, they want to kill 100% safe underground bases. And the reasons are quite obvious. They don't want to kill underground bases. Hope you can see the subtle difference.

[RipClaw]

Yes, the want to kill 100% safe underground bases. And the reasons are quite obvious. They don't want to kill underground bases. Hope you can see the subtle difference.

 

Whether they did it with the intention of driving the people out of the underground or just didn't think about it when they made the decision to let the zombie dig again doesn't matter for the result.

 

I experimented with building an underground base in Alpha 17. If you use the zombies' pathfinding against them, you can build an underground base. At the moment it wouldn't recommend it because there are always changes in the pathfinding. In addition, such bases are not exactly inconspicuous. So it's not too useful for PvP.

 

By the way. Where are all the people who supposedly wanted to build underground fortresses when there is finally a threat to underground bases?

[Jackelmyer]

 

Yes, the want to kill 100% safe underground bases. And the reasons are quite obvious. They don't want to kill underground bases. Hope you can see the subtle difference.

 

 

Fine. But I hope you can see the similarity.

 

For single player and co-op, an underground base primary purposes were mining in peace and having forges hidden from screamers.

 

If we're forced to dig above a depth in which zombies will detect and dig for us, then they've hurt or killed both underground and 100% safe underground. And none of this matters. As far as I know digging is going to be an option in settings.

 

The point was TFP sought to force certain game play styles. Which, for a game with a Sandbox element, simply is going to cause a lot of player friction and dissent. Which... Clearly... It has.

 

I would suggest next time people throw a fit on how others play, ask to simply get a setting and a feature to get the game play you're looking for.

[Cirion]

I would suggest next time people throw a fit on how others play, ask to simply get a setting and a feature to get the game play you're looking for.

 

^^ This. Was underground building somewhat OP before? Kinda, but it took a lot of effort to make a proper underground horde base. Vanilla version of the game should be kind of challenging, so should digging have been introduced for vanilla? Probably. But should there be a setting to disable this? Absolutely.

 

The fact is that some playstyles have been removed. Yeah you can still build underground bases, but the manner in which you can do so has now become 10x the work. This is like a politician's answer to something - politicians are excellent at telling "half truths", "technically true", etc. In reality, most people no longer build underground, and those that do, it's simply not as effective as before. This isn't eliminating a playstyle outright, but it may as well be. It's like a government adding a 100%+ tax on an item, also known as a "soft ban". It isn't strictly illegal, but may as well be, due to the prohibitive costs... like when my city tried to introduce something like a 300-400% tax on cigarettes. Ridiculous.

[canadianbluebeer]

While annoying, the current AI pathing is livable for bloodmoons.

 

Old way, they'd come scattered. Current, they beeline the same path through the defences. Fine. (it actually makes a bit of sense)

 

Digging, I have to be able to turn it off.

 

Once I can mine relatively safely, I won't care about the weak spikes, extra crowd dame etc. (I hope)

 

Dungeon POI are fun yes, some more non dungeon style would be better. (or less of the dungeons)

 

Waiting until lvl 10 for forge? Fine, sometimes the trader has one, and some of POI have workbenches that can be wrenched.

 

RWG, yeah, well, it's borked right now. Waiting on the next exp drop to see what magick they'll do.

[Jackelmyer]

^^ This. Was underground building somewhat OP before? Kinda, but it took a lot of effort to make a proper underground horde base. Vanilla version of the game should be kind of challenging, so should digging have been introduced for vanilla? Probably. But should there be a setting to disable this? Absolutely.

 

I would say no. No it wasn't at all. In a Single Player or Co-Op game, the players chose to build a base that way. It was a game play decision by the players. Not a gun that did 1,000,000 damage vs entities in a cone for 1000 meters.

 

So regardless of the effort, I never saw it as OP.

[Cirion]

I would say no. No it wasn't at all. In a Single Player or Co-Op game, the players chose to build a base that way. It was a game play decision by the players. Not a gun that did 1,000,000 damage vs entities in a cone for 1000 meters.

 

So regardless of the effort, I never saw it as OP.

 

Ah, maybe I made it sound like I am happy they added the digging zombies, trust me, I wish there was a setting to disable it. But I also try to be objective about it, and realize that the devs want there to be some danger no matter your build method, at least in vanilla version of the game.

[meganoth]

Fine. But I hope you can see the similarity.

 

For single player and co-op, an underground base primary purposes were mining in peace and having forges hidden from screamers.

 

If we're forced to dig above a depth in which zombies will detect and dig for us, then they've hurt or killed both underground and 100% safe underground. And none of this matters. As far as I know digging is going to be an option in settings.

 

The point was TFP sought to force certain game play styles. Which, for a game with a Sandbox element, simply is going to cause a lot of player friction and dissent. Which... Clearly... It has.

 

I would suggest next time people throw a fit on how others play, ask to simply get a setting and a feature to get the game play you're looking for.

 

A setting or mod turning something off is normally quite trivial, a mod to turn on zombie digging when it wasn't implemented was quite out of the question. I would have been quite ok with an option or mod and I would not have cared much for what the default is. But if I were the developer I would have set zombies dig as a default too. I also assume there will be an option for turning this off some time in the future.

 

I play co-op with 3 friends and we have been digging for weeks and frankly I haven't seen any detrimental effects on our game (but that doesn't say much, just wanted to mention it). If you can't handle zombies that dig for you, how can you handle zombies in pois? Have you ever tried a top-down mine with a small defense perimeter or mining with parallel lines and doors at spaced intervals? Do you have barbed wire in your belt and if not, why not? Are you role-playing a deaf person that doesn't hear when a zombie comes for you and takes appropriate actions? Have you really been killed multiple times by wandering zombies while digging or are you refraining already because of a fear of what could happen in the worst case?

 

When you say that TFP has killed underground or forced us to avoid underground because zombies can dig for us (IN A ****ing zombie game) I can interpret this only as an unwillingness or failure to adapt. Because clearly mining is still possible if one adds a few safety precautions and doesn't just give up (at least that is my experience with A17)

[RestInPieces]

he point was TFP sought to force certain game play styles. Which, for a game with a Sandbox element, simply is going to cause a lot of player friction and dissent. Which... Clearly... It has.

 

It has, because a lot of people refuse to understand the difference between "game with sandbox elements" and "sandbox game". Most discussions in the forums revolve around that if you look at them hard enough - so I'll mention again that a "sandbox-friendly" mode is needed. Because you can't have both a pure sandbox with minimal restrictions AND survival/td/rpg etc. Those who think you can have both (e.g. having a god mode on demand and survival in the same playsession), only fail to understand the aforementioned difference.

 

Most underground debates in the past asked for an option for the underground to stop being safe. I would know because I have probably posted in every one of them. None "threw a fit" about how other people play - even if there was such a toxic exception it was most likely attributed to the improper use of English. None wanted to completely "kill underground bases" - that would be utter stupidity considering this is a voxel game. Facts.

[Jackelmyer]

When you say that TFP has killed underground or forced us to avoid underground because zombies can dig for us (IN A ****ing zombie game) I can interpret this only as an unwillingness or failure to adapt. Because clearly mining is still possible if one adds a few safety precautions and doesn't just give up (at least that is my experience with A17)

 

Okay. This isn't a thread for this specific topic. And frankly, that attitude is largely, imo, what lead to such a rough A17 release. So... on this conversation... pass.

[Cirion]

It has, because a lot of people refuse to understand the difference between "game with sandbox elements" and "sandbox game". Most discussions in the forums revolve around that if you look at them hard enough - so I'll mention again that a "sandbox-friendly" mode is needed. Because you can't have both a pure sandbox with minimal restrictions AND survival/td/rpg etc. Those who think you can have both (e.g. having a god mode on demand and survival in the same playsession), only fail to understand the aforementioned difference.

 

Most underground debates in the past asked for an option for the underground to stop being safe. I would know because I have probably posted in every one of them. None "threw a fit" about how other people play - even if there was such a toxic exception it was most likely attributed to the improper use of English. None wanted to completely "kill underground bases" - that would be utter stupidity considering this is a voxel game. Facts.

 

I am confused, in your first paragraph you say digging zombies should be here to stay no matter what, and in the second you say it should be an option? Which is it?

[Jackelmyer]

It has, because a lot of people refuse to understand the difference between "game with sandbox elements" and "sandbox game". Most discussions in the forums revolve around that if you look at them hard enough - so I'll mention again that a "sandbox-friendly" mode is needed. Because you can't have both a pure sandbox with minimal restrictions AND survival/td/rpg etc. Those who think you can have both (e.g. having a god mode on demand and survival in the same playsession), only fail to understand the aforementioned difference.

 

Most underground debates in the past asked for an option for the underground to stop being safe. I would know because I have probably posted in every one of them. None "threw a fit" about how other people play - even if there was such a toxic exception it was most likely attributed to the improper use of English. None wanted to completely "kill underground bases" - that would be utter stupidity considering this is a voxel game. Facts.

 

 

I was in several of them myself. And clearly, you didn't read the post directly above yours in this thread alone or you and I define throwing fits over features differently. I... saw people throwing fits... over others... wanting underground play.

 

We see things differently I guess. And that's absolutely fine.

[RestInPieces]

I am confused, in your first paragraph you say digging zombies should be here to stay no matter what

 

Errr... no? Maybe I failed to convey what I wanted to say.

 

First paragraph, in other words, says the following: This is not a sandbox game, BUT, since a respectable amount of people want a sandbox game, a sandbox-friendly mode should be introduced. So that is what these people should be asking for - they shouldn't expect or complain about the base game being changed in the lines of what TFP described it to be in the first place.

 

PS: Also, there is a reason I mention a "mode" and not just a myriad of options. Briefly put, because an option about every little thing may not be possible, because a very malleable experience can lead to an unintentionally unwanted experience and because many players can't/won't bother "studying" on how to optimize their experience. At any case it would be best if both were available.

[Jackelmyer]

First paragraph, in other words, says the following: This is not a sandbox game, BUT, since a respectable amount of people want a sandbox game, a sandbox-friendly mode should be introduced. So that is what these people should be asking for - they shouldn't expect or complain about the base game being changed in the lines of what TFP described it to be in the first place.

 

 

Stop that. Just. Stop it.

 

With over 3 million copies sold on PC (digital download), 7 Days to Die has redefined the survival genre, with unrivaled crafting and world-building content. Set in a brutally unforgiving post-apocalyptic world overrun by the undead, 7 Days to Die is an open-world game that is a unique combination of first person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role-playing games. It presents combat, crafting, looting, mining, exploration, and character growth, in a way that has seen a rapturous response from fans worldwide. Play the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first. Navezgane awaits!

 

 

Play the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first. Navezgane awaits!

 

 

That is from their main website. That is from their Wiki. That is TFP's own words. This is not just a Sandbox game. But the DEFINITIVE Zombie Survival SANDBOX RPG that came first.

[Cirion]

Interesting, they even called it an "RPG" in their own words. Roland told me the other week that this is not an RPG, or at least that was not the focus. So there seems to be some disconnects here.

[Jackelmyer]

What I find more interesting is...

 

 

 

With over 3 million copies sold on PC (digital download), 7 Days to Die has redefined the survival genre, with unrivaled crafting and world-building content.

 

.....

 

It presents combat, crafting, looting, mining, exploration, and character growth, in a way that has seen a rapturous response from fans worldwide.

 

So... Let's change it.

[RestInPieces]

Stop that. Just. Stop it.

 

 

 

 

Play the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first. Navezgane awaits!

 

 

That is from their main website. That is from their Wiki. That is TFP's own words. This is not just a Sandbox game. But the DEFINITIVE Zombie Survival SANDBOX RPG that came first.

 

The game's description is what I link to people who expect a sandbox game. You couldn't have done a better job at proving my point:

It has, because a lot of people refuse to understand the difference between "game with sandbox elements" and "sandbox game".

unique combination of first person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role-playing games

 

Keyword - combination. Not abstract elements, but a combination in a working system. For example, you can't have god mode on demand and TD elements in the same playsession because the latter become irrelevant. This is a game of many genres and each genre must co-exist with the other, not overshadow it.

 

That said, you can't expect or complain when the base game changes towards that end. But you can ask for options/modes to suit your needs and none would ever "throw a fit" about that.

[Cirion]

Yeah they quote the combination of other game modes, but they explicitly call out sandbox, survival, and RPG in the final call-out quote, leading one to believe those three are the emphasized genres above all the others.

[Jackelmyer]

My stop it response was specifically targeting your statement that "this is not a sandbox game". That's been said by you and others.

 

The game doesn't need a "sandbox friendly mode". It is a sandbox game.

 

But when a developer says "Play the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first", I take it that this is, specifically, a sandbox game. And it would be very nice if people stopped throwing out false statements, especially on this point. Or. It would be nice for TFP to update their game definition.

 

 

 

That said, you can't expect or complain when the base game changes towards that end. But you can ask for options/modes to suit your needs and none would ever "throw a fit" about that.

 

 

The issue is when the base game changes in a way that severely strangles an element of the game. And Sandbox, is a major element. For many players and apparently for TFP's vision.

 

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Yeah they quote the combination of other game modes, but they explicitly call out sandbox, survival, and RPG in the final call-out quote, leading one to believe those three are the emphasized genres above all the others.

 

To me it's not so much where they call it out. But the very direct and boldness of the statement.

 

Play the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first.

 

Clearly... You are the definitive game of these elements.

[Ringkeeper]

did someone already mentioned that digging was in the game FROM THE BEGINNING?

 

Its nothing new and people survived it before. Yes, with mining, yes with underground bases, yes with everything. Heck, at that time even dogs digged. Hell, they digged even crazier.

 

Did you all start after it was turned off ? Or did you got so weak/lazy/uncreative in the time it was turned of ?

[Jackelmyer]

did someone already mentioned that digging was in the game FROM THE BEGINNING?

 

Its nothing new and people survived it before. Yes, with mining, yes with underground bases, yes with everything. Heck, at that time even dogs digged. Hell, they digged even crazier.

 

Did you all start after it was turned off ? Or did you got so weak/lazy/uncreative in the time it was turned of ?

 

I started after they were turned off to be honest. So I never knew game play with digging included. Though I wonder why they turned it off in the first place.

[RipClaw]

I play co-op with 3 friends and we have been digging for weeks and frankly I haven't seen any detrimental effects on our game (but that doesn't say much, just wanted to mention it). If you can't handle zombies that dig for you, how can you handle zombies in pois?

 

I already had a screamer with her horde of feral and radioactive zombie in one of my mines. That was no fun.

 

In my iron mine which is only 15 blocks under the surface I had multiple visits vom screamers.

 

To prevent that in the future I placed a auto turret at the entrance. As long as the mine was relatively close to the surface I was able to use the zombie's pathfinding against them and lure them directly into a trap. What it looks like when the mine goes deeper I will see then.

 

Have you ever tried a top-down mine with a small defense perimeter or mining with parallel lines and doors at spaced intervals?

 

You follow the resources that you mine and that are randomly distributed and accordingly it is hardly possible to plan a defense here like with a base.

 

It also doesn't help to build doors because the zombies dig their way from the top to you and don't take the entrance.

I have taken a close look at the behavior of zombies in the underground. They behave differently than on the surface. For example, they dig past a pit instead of trying to jump over it. And if a way to you is longer than about 30 blocks then they dig down to you from above instead of using a free entrance.

 

Do you have barbed wire in your belt and if not, why not?

 

Barbed wire has the unpleasant characteristic that you get stuck on it yourself in a critical situation.

 

The best way to fend off the zombies so far has been with the shotgun and then try to escape or get a position above the zombies.

 

Are you role-playing a deaf person that doesn't hear when a zombie comes for you and takes appropriate actions? Have you really been killed multiple times by wandering zombies while digging or are you refraining already because of a fear of what could happen in the worst case?

 

Besides you hear nothing if you dig with the auger. It is too loud. If you are lucky you notice that something falls down from above but in the dark it is hardly perceptible.

 

When you say that TFP has killed underground or forced us to avoid underground because zombies can dig for us (IN A ****ing zombie game) I can interpret this only as an unwillingness or failure to adapt. Because clearly mining is still possible if one adds a few safety precautions and doesn't just give up (at least that is my experience with A17)

 

Mining is possible but it's not as much fun as it used to be.

[RipClaw]

did someone already mentioned that digging was in the game FROM THE BEGINNING?

 

Its nothing new and people survived it before. Yes, with mining, yes with underground bases, yes with everything. Heck, at that time even dogs digged. Hell, they digged even crazier.

 

But did the zombies already hear someone working with the pickaxe through 35 meters of stone ? That's the problem we have to deal with. The zombies have a hearing a bat could only dream of.

 

Did you all start after it was turned off ? Or did you got so weak/lazy/uncreative in the time it was turned of ?

 

I started in alpha 15 and yes there it was already switched off because it made problems. The zombies produced holes everywhere.

[meganoth]

Okay. This isn't a thread for this specific topic. And frankly, that attitude is largely, imo, what lead to such a rough A17 release. So... on this conversation... pass.

 

Well ok. But frankly if you throw out assumption like "TFP has killed underground or forced us to avoid underground" and base part of your argument on it you shouldn't be surprised to be called out on it. YOU made that assertion in this thread, not I.

 

(EDITED for a proper quote)

 

My stop it response was specifically targeting your statement that "this is not a sandbox game". That's been said by you and others.

 

The game doesn't need a "sandbox friendly mode". It is a sandbox game.

 

But when a developer says "Play the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first", I take it that this is, specifically, a sandbox game. And it would be very nice if people stopped throwing out false statements, especially on this point. Or. It would be nice for TFP to update their game definition.

 

Clearly your definition of what a "definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG" is different from the developers (and some other people's) definition. You seem to call for the clean ideal of pure 100% sandbox combined with 100% survival and 100% RPG. This simply is not possible (IMHO).

 

7d2d tries to fuse all these genres into a somewhat fun coherent experience. It needs to strike a balance between its parts and where this balance lies is partly subjective. So you think the balance is somewhere else, fine. It doens't mean that the tag line is wrong or isn't exactly what TFP is meaning to accomplish.

 

Even sandbox is not really a narrowly defined term. It means something different to everyone. Is 7d2d a sandbox game for me? Not a pure one, no. There is already the discrepancy that a sandbox should have no goal whatsoever and there is already one specific goal that can't be taken away in a survival game, namely to survive.