Roland
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Posts posted by Roland
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51 minutes ago, Grue said:
Now players are forced to use some variation of a cattle chute design to manage the flow of zombies.
This is completely false. Just because the cattle chute design is perceived to be the most efficient zombie processing factory style way of doing it doesn't mean anyone is forced to do it. Since A18 when faatal adjusted the pathing for zombies, their ability to sense long paths has been nerfed by quite a bit. If you build a large base (I'm talking 15x15 square not anything of megalithic proportions) or take over a large POI you do get attacks from multiple sides and you do have to move around to defend different places. Anyone who feels like this is a fun way to play horde night can do it if they choose to.
Its time to stop always referencing A17 initial pathing and AI as the reference for supposed current zombie behavior.
51 minutes ago, Grue said:Active defense was the fun part! Actually having to move around and fight from all sides and rushing to repair a breach in the defenses between waves only to realize they are attacking the south wall now instead?
So do it. Listen to the fun angel sitting on your right shoulder instead of the efficiency devil on your left shoulder. If defending a base by moving to different fronts is what you like then build a base that supports it instead of a base that uses a cattle chute.
51 minutes ago, Grue said:Do you really think that!?
I think anyone who does a lot of building would agree the AI changes made base building almost comically easy.
You can AFK do a max zombies day 7000 horde with the current AI.
Actually it is not even base building anymore. It is crowd control.
The zombies are so amped up you can't afford to let them touch any surface for more than 10 seconds, so all the designs just run them through some variation of a cattle chute.
Its not a thought exercise. It is reality. You are caught up in the efficiency meta that is popular because people like to grind zombies up in a machine they created. But that doesn't mean it is the only way. It means that either you never got out of the popular box as seen on YouTube and tried doing something else or you have but regardless of what you claim you enjoy, you actually gravitate to efficiency more than you do the fun of running to different fronts and defending your base on all sides.
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17 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:
@Roland, i am always talking about MP Coop wich should be clear from my last posts. Don´t know where you got the idea i said SP shoudl be possible without looting, i never said that. And we do have people in the group who absolutly won´t go looting. If they are forced to, they won´t play. And i have done the builder/miner part myself already aswell in several playtroughs and will do so again propably. So i am talking for myself here.
And to your example, with water not beeing transportable is unique: Really? That´s what you choose to say it´s unique? This is the typical case of "Just because you are special, doesn´t mean you are usefull" right there. I can see the ads for 7 days now. "Play 7 days to die. The survival game where you can´t transport water" Oh my. Such an artifical challenge beeing praised as an advantage sounds actually desperate.
I mean can you imagine someone telling a friend that they should play 7 days because it´s so unique? "Hey mate, you should really play that survival game where you can´t take water from a lake and cook it so you can drink it. That´s so unique."
Thanks for the laugh, can we now be serious again?
7 Days to Die is the sum of its quirky parts. The new water survival is just one of those quirks. I never meant to say that we would sell the game based on it alone. If you play MP then you will be fine. The changes will help your team work together even more. There is no reason you should be left behind if you are building and others are looting. I've already stated why and how MP will not be negatively impacted by the changes. If you don't trust my word then you will have to wait to play it with your group.
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1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:
@Roland No it´s not a race. But i will be annoying af due to changes to water and inventory restrictions. I can already see that. And adding more back and forth due to encumberance is nothing i will ever get used to nor do i want to get used to it. And as much as i like slower progression, just adding back and forth isn´t the way i personally want for that. And for that it doesn´t matter if you are the person building and need to get where the magazines are after the looter found them or if you are the looter who needs to do a lot of extra runs home now.
I can’t speak to what is or is not annoying to you. You often post a desire for more pure survival elements to be added to the game. The changes you would like to see added would most certainly be seen as annoying and tedious by others. The new design is solid and some people will find it fun and challenging and rewarding and others will find it grindy, annoying, and tedious. How people react is not something that can be predicted but I can say that the A21 features work. They are well designed and are tight. If you end up disliking them then I can’t say you’re wrong to feel that way.
1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:Also the glue issue. Sadly we don´t know how the recipe changed (wich is kinda weird seeing how many details regarding magazines are revealed), but even if it´s still one water it will most likely become an issue if you have 2 people at home and 2 looting and that filter simply doesn´t drop (remember forge ahead? It will be exactly the same just that now the enemies scale with your gamestage). And even if one filter drops that gives you 3 jars a day? Is that correct? And it takes up 3x3 blocks so building bigger is now importnant?
Glue is the same recipe but uses boiled water instead of murky water. It is more common in garbage and cupboards. Filters are always available to be purchased as far as I’ve seen. I’ve never not been able to get multiple. Building solutions for dew collectors will be discovered by the community as time goes on.
1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:And i have honestly no clue how people play in SP without looting not using creative mode. I bascially never build a single block more than necessary in SP. But i can assure you that some people who like building would have been going for other games if they see that this game doesn´t really support their playstyle. The days where 7 days to die was unique are long gone.
You probably should just speak for yourself instead of advocating for these other people. Come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve yet heard from someone speaking for themselves who only build and refuse to ever loot when playing single player. It’s always someone speaking for them and when I challenge them they say, “Well, I build and loot so don’t get on my case. It’s just these other guys who will be hurt”7 Days not unique? We’ve just gone through months of people complaining that no other game does survival like 7 Days and who ever heard of a survival game with thirst where you can’t carry away as much water as you want from a lake? I’d say this game is as quirky and unique as it ever has been…
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5 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:
@Roland You are so far besides my point it´s not even funny anymore. Do you even read? Or do you just see that someone isn´t fully happy about the change and give out slightly altered standard replies?
I said that "people" talk about how playstyles are dead and there are plenty of people who do say that this change will ruin the game for them and force them out of their playstyle. You, personally, in the post I responded to said that people would just be disadvantaged, true, but you also said that lots of people never would have bought the game if they couldn't play it the way they wanted. So you are kind of saying both things.
You want me to address "disadvantaged"? FIne. What's wrong with a bit of disadvantage? All that means is that things aren't going to be as easy and it will require some adaptation. Where's the fire? Also, disadvantaged compared to whom? Are you competing against others for how quickly you can learn all the recipes? The less you loot the slower you will learn all the recipes but your gamestage and lootstage will still advance so better weapons will start showing up at the trader and in loot (for that blue moon when you do open something up you didn't place) so really you won't be locked out of anything-- it will just be a slower paced progression. Who are you in a race against?
You think that if A21 introduces a disadvantage for people who build that this means those people probably would have never bought the game to begin with? If that disadvantage had been part of the game from the beginning people would have just been used to it from the get go and they wouldn't see it as a disadvantage compared to something before. It would just be the game. If all your worry is simply about a disadvantage then let me assure you that.....you'll get used to it and adapt and continue to enjoy building. And let's be clear. The only disadvantage (if there is one at all) is for people who play single player and never want to loot at all. Who are these people? If a single player already does some looting as part of their playstyle then they will be just fine. That very small percentage of people who only play SP and who refuse to ever loot so they can build 24/7 can enable the creative menu and godmode and will probably have more fun that way.
There is my non-stock non-standard reply to just you to stand alonside my previous general reply to all the other people who like to predict that this playstyle or that playstyle is now dead.
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44 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:
@BFT2020 I know it isn´t a building/crafting or whatever simulator. Point is that a big part of the success is that you still can play it like one in MP. A lot of people would have never touched this game if it wasn´t for those playstyles beeing possible. I don´t think TFP realizes how many tbh.
Multiplayer is not going to be affected by the change much if at all. Builders are going to be able to ignore looting and be just fine when playing with allies. The entire motivation for reading magazines is different than all the other books you have experience with. I've already gone over this a ton of times so I'm going to spare you the explanation. I'll just say that I believe the magazines by their nature are going to enhance team play and push teams to greater cooperation and coordination and communication than ever before. The purpose of the magazines encourages specialization and teams supporting their members in their specializations.
Single player is going to make it so that a no looting run is very challenging and an extremely slow progression since you will be using primitive gear and building lower tier blocks for a lot longer. The thing is that I doubt there are many builders out there who build in the survival game instead of creative mode and who also detest looting to the point that they never want to do it. The change is going to force the single player who wants to build in survival to do more looting. There is no question. But if most people who play SP are at least tolerant of looting they are going to be fine.
Speed runners are going to be the ones that go out of their minds, imo. Power grinding to buy their way up the skill ladders at lightning speed and having what recipes they learn and when they learn them completely 100% under their control is now gone completely. You can power loot but that still gives no control over what magazines will be found or how quickly you will find them. Maybe in this playthrough you'll get to cement by the first horde night but in the next you might not get cement going until much later with no control over being able to speed it up.
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28 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:
@RolandYeah, seeing how they said several times that they don´t like people staying at home and the combo of water and magazines, i doubt that. Sure you can still play like before. But with disadvantages, unless TFP didn´t tell us everything on purpose about those changes and left out crucial information, that´s a given fact. And why would they hold back information that they know is gonna stop people from complaining? So i don´t think there will be any surprise regarding that and there is no way that nothing at all changes for certain playstyles. Not gonna happen, there will be disadvantages, maybe for the whole group. That´s the point. I never said you can´t play like that at all.
Every single time before every single update the people who felt like their playstyle was going to be dead were certain 100% that they could no longer build underground, or no longer play nomad, or no longer build basic pillbox style bases and that only exploitive bases would ever work. In every case this confidence that old playstyles were dead lasted....until others were seen to still be doing them. There is crucial information you are missing-- play experience. You're just not going to fully get it until you play it. I talk to people all the time who yell that the magazines are going to stop their perk progression and they should get to use points. After I remind them that the magazines only affect recipe learning they back off until just 10 minutes later when they seem to forget again that the magazines don't manage perks. People are just going to have to play it to fully understand it. My detractors will say that is super convenient. Well, maybe, but it is also true and when A21 releases there for sure will be an initial knee jerk reaction from some initial plays where people will say "Team play is dead!" but then other teams will be having success and actually playing more like a team than 5 guys playing parallel solo than ever before as they figure out the adjustments and pretty soon all these dreaded changes will become the new sacred cow that the devs better not touch for A22. This same scenario has just played out exactly the same too many times for me to not believe that it will be the same again with this issue.
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Just now, pApA^LeGBa said:
Years over years where the game made no difference between playstyles at all.
Because we've never over the years and years had many threads at every major update of outraged players who claimed changes to the game stepped on their playstyle? If the game has continued to allow "all playstyles" until recently it is only because in every single case, once players get used to the changes, they realize that their playstyle still works after all.
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1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:
@Roland I highly doubt that a magazine for a crafting skill can be more exciting than beeing able to step on mines or extra 50% sneak damage or getting a chance to one shot ores. It´s just a crafting skill. That is now kind of luck based. Please note the "kind of" before going all over me about how it works.
I would have doubted it too and yet I'm always happy when my quality tier for a piece of gear increases or I can suddenly craft something new that I had been waiting for. Maybe it seems like "just crafting skill" because in the context of A20 it is just an obligatory part of the perk trees and you are completely in control of which recipes you are unlocking. Most people fall into a pattern of always doing the same thing so learning recipes can certainly be a bit predictable and boring in A20. With it out of your control and as a prize for opening containers it ends up being more exciting.
Maybe it's just me and nobody is going to be thrilled every time they get magazines and learn new and better recipes as a separate thing. Maybe everyone will still think "It's just a new crafting recipe, big whup!"
Somehow I doubt that.
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1 hour ago, Grue said:
Lol, my sentiments exactly!
With crafting tiers locked behind looting dozens of magazines, AND capping it at Blues...
It seems like good odds that you will loot a tier 6 of any given item long before you will ever be able to craft a tier 5 of the same item. Which would make the whole collection of magazines and item crafting itself an exercise in futility.
It feels like the player agency/control inherent to being able to craft the things you want/need is taking a back seat to an RNG grindfest.
It seems that way on paper but in reality I craft much more often in A21 than I ever did in A20 or A19. It does seem counter-intuitive but it is true. I still do occasionally find something better than what I can craft but it is nowhere nearly as often as it has been in the past.
I just want to clarify that when Joe said that it takes about 15 magazines to reach tier 2 he was talking about tier 2 level gear as in the iron level. He wasn't saying that it takes 15 magazines to start crafting orange quality stuff. Its about 3 magazines to advance up to each next milestone.
31 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:And the people who wanna do this should be able to rely on others without any disadvantage, which also means they should be able to level their crafting as fast as when looting themselves.
Who established this gameplay morality?
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11 hours ago, Grue said:
Actually it is far worse than that. Instead one schematic you need, the thing you want is locked behind collecting a dozen magazines.
It will be interesting to see what happens when people actually play it. The book sets and mod schematics are still in the game as single volumes you can find to get a bonus. So that type of design is still in the game. Magazines are also in the game so you get to play both designs alongside each other. The magazine design is a lot more exciting and delivers more rewarding moments than the individual book volumes. I don't think people will think it is far worse.
12 hours ago, Grue said:And it will be the same dozen magazines every time you play.
It will actually be the same 23 magazines every time you play. That is a huge diversity and results in a different mix and different order that you find every time you play. I haven't felt like my early game has duplicated itself once and I've started over now at least a dozen times.
12 hours ago, Grue said:No more "Jackpot!" moments from getting lucky with a forge schematic on day 1
Maybe not as many but there are still some jackpot schematics and items you can find. Not only that but every time you read a magazine that triggers a new recipe being learned it is a mini jackpot feeling and I like those better because they happen more often and they don't ruin things by giving you something OP for your stage in the game.
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17 minutes ago, Annihilatorza said:
This is my concern with learn by looting, it forces you to been in the city looting and as Grue said a 'roving murder-hobo' it gives you 0 other options, I know that its been said several times, your friends can bring you the books you need.
What if they need the books themselves or they simply dont find it or they dump the books due to lack of space in the inventory.
In the case of friends the magazines are different than past books we've had in the game. Currently it makes sense to read any books I find and simply take duplicate books home for my buddies to read. But with the new magazines, that is completely inefficient and counterproductive. If I read a magazine and you read the same magazine and someone else reads the same magazine then all three of us are at level one and can still only craft the lowest tier. But if we all give our magazines to one person to read (doesn't matter who) then that one person can craft at level three and make better stuff for all of us.
With skills it makes sense for everyone to have the same skills. We would all like to have a10% boost to our damage or our stamina so of course everyone will read that book themself when they find it and only share any duplicates. But it makes no sense for everyone to be able to craft the same thing at low levels. As for dumping duplicate magazines for inventory space, I doubt anyone will do that. The magazines feel extremely valuable. Nobody is likely to just throw them out because they want to hold onto some lead.
So I hope you see that with the magazines, self-interest actually pushes people to divide up the magazines so specific people get as high level as they can in their specialty. If you are building at camp you will read certain magzines and craft those things for everyone all while still leveling up and using skill points for your perks that you get from upgrading the blocks you are building for your base. You won't have to loot at all if you don't want to.
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2 hours ago, Grue said:
I recommend a google search to help clear up the historical reference.
I never said I didn't know the historical reference. I said I didn't get what you mean by it in the context of the game and gathering water. How about you just say what you mean plainly.
2 hours ago, Grue said:That generalization is patently false.
Just off the top of my head:
Green Hell, rainforest.
The Long Dark, surrounded by snow.
Raft, literally floating in water.
I haven't played Green Hell or Long Dark. In Raft you are literally floating in water but do you know what you don't have on day one? 30 empty jars to fill up with with water that is drinkable from day one. You can inform me about Long Dark or Green Hell. Do those games allow you to load up on all the water you need for the foreseeable future from the first moments of the game? I've watched people play Long Dark and I am pretty sure your inventory is more limited than 7 Days to Die but can you build up an easily accessible stash of stack and stack of water from all that snow like you can in 7 Days to Die? I don't think so. I think you're superficially naming games that have a lot of water but don't actually allow the player to have unlimited access to it all right from the day one. I know for sure you can't with raft. Surrounded by sea water we might be but that doesn't translate to day one drinkable water surplus all around.
2 hours ago, Grue said:I am not the least bit angry, Roland.
If anything, I am just sick and tired of disappointment.
Apologies.
This only makes you
angrysick and tired of disappointment because you refuse to accept your role in early access.3 hours ago, Grue said:We are a decade into "early access", that excuse ran its course long ago.
It isn't an excuse. It is the state of the game and it doesn't run its course until the game state changes to finished. It has been a long road and it isn't uncommon for people to get fatigued before it is over. But that is just you being fatigued and burnt out and not necessarily a reflection on whether the development process is still continuing. It is. Changes are still happening. You are playing the game before it is finished. Hence, early access is still ongoing. There is no evidence to show that 7 Days to Die should lose that status. All the evidence shows that it still has some way to go before it is finished.
3 hours ago, Grue said:Besides, playtesting implies they actually listen to the feedback from us peasants at some point in the development process, which all too often does not appear to be the case.
Most of the time when I see someone try to give feedback, people like you (often specifically you) shout us down to defend whatever the newest questionable mechanic is as if your life depends on it.
They do actually listen to the feedback you give after playtesting. They read several forums and twitch channels and they also have feedback collection built into the game. But the key here to the feedback they care about is this word: Playtesting.
As for shouting down someone's feedback I don't do that at all when it is game related feedback based on playtesting. What I do counter is when people make speculations about the motives or thought processes of the developers or spread doom and gloom about the future of game based on faulty opinions they have because they don't know all the facts. Show me where I have actually shouted down someone's gameplay feedback. It doesn't exist. Even now our discussion has nothing to do with actual gameplay. It is about how early access works and about how the developers do consider the feedback of the community when it is based upon actual playtime data. Where have I said anything to disrespect your gameplay feedback or anyone's by "shouting you down"?
In the case of the water survival changes and the learn by reading mechanics, I do share my own actual gameplay feedback as a counterpoint to many of the worst case scenario speculations that people are throwing out there without any evidence other than their fears and worries about change.3 hours ago, Grue said:Thank you for finally addressing my concern.
Finally? I've been typing out these examples and giving these insights for both water survival and the magazine crafting system for months now. It just goes to show how people would rather ignore what one eyewitness reports in favor of just repeating each others' worst case scenario fears and worries over and over and over.
Glad your concern could be addressed.
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45 minutes ago, crazywildfire said:
Edit- back to #1 reading back and seeing what Roland said. You mean when looting? In that case meh it part of looting isn't it? What fun is it to always find good stuff? Idk that just me. Everyone is different.
Well, relatively speaking good stuff. Its not all OP stuff at all but it is useful stuff. More seeds and raw veggies. Magazines. Crafting ingredients that you will use. It's hard to say why but empty bottles were always kind of meh maybe because after Day 1 or 2 you already had all you would ever need so they were just needless useless placeholders that are now gone so you are finding things that while technically junk it is stuff you can use and need.
It is much more rewarding without the empty bottles. You may wish for them when most of what you find has some usefulness to it and you think, why do I always get good stuff now? This sucks! But so far I haven't missed them being gone from the loot tables.
41 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:Propably already been answered and/or discussed or i missed the answer, but i just realized that strength is still a must in A21 unless you want to spend a lot more time on mining than necessary? So nothing really changes with strength if playing SP.
Unless every attribute also get´s a mining skill like planned with flurry of blows.
No...for whatever reason they think you must be strong in order to mine well. The audacity!
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24 minutes ago, unholyjoe said:
Roland, the best part i like about no more jars is..
1. i dont have a cabinet full of empty jars like in previous alphas.
2. i dont have to worry about going to the desert to get sand to make glass and then forge the jars.
3. less crap taking up needed space in inventory or storage chests.
4. if thirsty stop by any body of water and drink a handful or 2 or take out a jar or so of good water from dew collector.
For me, the best part is that without them the loot containers that used to have them have much better and more useful stuff. Whenever a I watch an A20 streamer open up cupboards and pull out empty bottle after empty bottle I feel like throwing up into an empty bottle.
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1 hour ago, Grue said:
Water:
Point 1: Your alternatives to being able to collect water from the environment is basically the equivalent to saying "Let them Eat Cake".
You can loot or buy any resource, but that is a good excuse to remove chopping wood and mining from the game? Obviously not.
I don't know what you are trying to say by the "Let them eat cake" reference. Your analogy for removing chopping wood and mining from the game are poor. The ability to harvest water has not been removed. Build some dew collectors and you will harvest plenty of water that can be carried around. Find jars of water in POIs and you are harvesting water that can be carried around. Go to a river and drink your fill which is harvesting water as well. That water can't be carried away but it is harvested and used.
1 hour ago, Grue said:Point 2: Even if the goal is to remove all "containers", that does not necessitate removal of the ability to collect surface water.
What necessitates the ability to collect surface water is the infinite supply that it represents. Infinite anything in a survival game is bad news. It may be realistic but it destroys the gameplay. Having actually played it I can attest that it is an interesting and rewarding gameplay loop at least for me. I suspect that most people will like it once the change settles in. For the rest, it shouldn't be hard to mod infinite free water supply on day 1 back into your game.
1 hour ago, Grue said:Point 3: Basically all you are saying is here "Too late now! Lay back and take it, it will be over soon."
This only makes you angry because you refuse to accept your role in early access. As long as you disagree and fight against the idea that you signed up to test out the experimental changes the developers make to the game you are going to be perplexed over why TFP changes things without asking us for permission. For 20 alphas now the developers have been making changes and giving them to us to test and play with and then give feedback based on actual play time. I can't think of a single time they reversed something they already implemented before releasing it because some people objected to the theory of it all. Changes and adjustments will be made only after plenty of time has been spent by the larger community playing with the new features and we've moved past all the kneejerk "I hate change" responses and actual constructive feedback can be gathered. So yeah, nothing anyone says will prevent the new changes from being released for A21. People are going to get to try it out and nobody is going to convince the devs to just throw out the latest developments just because it sounds bad.
1 hour ago, Grue said:Point 4: If the game is so bloody broken that your best solution is to "tuRn oN GoD MOdE", then what does that say about the balance of the game?
There is the game and then there is the sandbox. You are confusing the two. The game doesn't need Godmode and it only has elements of a sandbox. The game has limitations and rules the player must follow (or break if they want to cheese something). The game is not intended to be a pure sandbox where you can just do anything and suffer no consequences. I never said the game needs Godmode. You either misunderstood or are intentionally twisting my words.
1 hour ago, Grue said:You really mean to tell me that I am the only one who likes building bases? Or mining? Or crafting?
Someone has to stay home to build, at the very least, a functional horde base for the group.
Or is base building "not the norm" in your opinion?
Do you just run from one POI to the next looting piles of garbage with no place to store any of it?
No, that's not what I said at all. Base building is awesome and I'd say that if you include POI upgrading with building a base from scratch as "building bases" then it very much is the norm for most people to engage in one or both of those activities. In our group we upgrade a POI for our everyday crafting base and we build a horde night base from scratch so we do both.
What I did say (and I suspect you know it full well) is that completely ignoring looting and refusing to do any scavenging or exploring at all is not the norm. I stand by that statement. I am convinced that the majority of players enjoys doing a variety of activities in the game and that exploring poi's and looting them for stuff is very popular.
If you are on a team and some are doing all the building and others are out looting predominately that is also normal and fine. As a team you are getting all those activities done. The looters will bring back magazines because it will make sense for everyone on the team to specialize in different magazines. Having everyone read whatever they find themselves will be extremely foolish and as soon as people start playing they will realize this. 5 people all reading Sharp Sticks magazine means all five will be able to craft an orange wooden spear. But giving one person all the Sharp Sticks magazines means that one person will be able to craft top tier spears for everyone on the team. There is zero incentive to read all magazines yourself when on a team as that will horribly dilute the magazines. It may not seem that way when thinking of magazines in terms of current A20 books but when teams start playing they will instantly realize that the only thing that makes sense is to divide up who will craft what and then funnel magazines to each team member. Meanwhile builders will still probably lead their teammates in xp farming as they upgrade blocks as they build...
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16 hours ago, Syphon583 said:
Pretty sure @Roland has confirmed multiple times that Crack-a-books are incredibly useful in A21, almost OP. I wouldn't doubt some adjustments will be made, but I would count on finding a lot less paper in bookshelves.
Yeah! Get those bookstores while they're good in A21. Who knows whether they'll be as good in A22...
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1 hour ago, warmer said:
dont you love how much we have been trained by clickbait, that we are now using in our subject lines for everything, vs just saying what subject something actually is about...
lol….and then there’s @ElCabong who makes their thread title the entire original post…0 -
8 hours ago, Veleyna said:
I understand that, that's why the first part of my post is there. Let's break down the problem in a bit more detail.
People use jars to mass collect and store mass amounts of water obtained from the rivers, lakes, etc. This makes water seem abundant and usually easy to collect. Even the desert has a convenient watering hole to collect from. They do this because it is incredibly easy and because that's pretty much the only use for jars. Collect water, turn it into tea, keep killing zombies.
The solution youtubers claim the developers are going with is to remove jars completely, but this potentially creates other problems and might not actually be the best solution. See, when solving a problem with a game the goal isn't simply to remove the problem itself. The goal is to remove the problem in a way that makes the game *more fun,* otherwise it's not a good fix and if it makes the game too tedious or, worse, boring, then it's objectively a bad decision. From what I've heard it sounds like they've thought this through beyond just removing jars which is why the point of the topic isn't to complain or try to talk them out of it, but to flesh out more info so that we might be able to help flesh out a fun solution.
So the first part of my post covered what else could be done with jars.
Step 1: Make them more rare. Right now they're found in practically every toilet as well as various loot containers. Murky water is relatively common, boiled water can be found too, as well as tea, beer, etc. Not only does this make jars waaay too common, it's entirely unrealistic.
Nobody has jars of murky water just sitting in their toilet and if an apocalypse were to happen nobody would be putting jars in toilets. That's just absurd. Most people don't use jars for beer, so looting a gas station or cannery and finding dozens of jars of beer along the way is also really weird, most likely those would be in cans. And crafting jars at a forge without tools for crafting glass? That doesn't make sense either.
So, yeah, remove a lot of the ways in which people get jars. They should be a rare find in pantries or cabinets, more common on farms and places that use jars a lot. There should also be a new crafting station specifically for glass which could also be used for other items. This would make jars harder to acquire even by crafting and make it take longer to get to the crafting point if the glass station requires resources from the forge and to be made at the workbench.
Step 2: Add more recipes that require jars. And this is where they can kill two birds with one stone, because another problem players have complained about is that farming is almost pointless later in the game. Food becomes pretty easy to acquire and ends up being stockpiled over time. Right now I have a game going, day 10 and I have 3 chests full of meat, eggs, produce, canned goods, etc. as well as some farm plots still in a chest because I haven't decided where to start farming at all yet, I have no farm plots set down anywhere to grow my own food. I stopped gathering food by day 5. The problem there is that the food doesn't rot or waste away, it lasts indefinitely, another unrealistic detail that is generally acceptable for a game but can make a zombie apocalypse game too easy.
So if they were to add a rot feature to the food it would make those rare glass jars more valuable for preserving food instead of collecting tons of water. Not only does this align more with what jars would be desired for in the real world under such circumstances, it also forces the players to think more strategically on what they would use their jars for and increases the importance of farming and hunting. It also adds some potential other items such as an ice chest or fridge to preserve foods longer, maybe new recipes such as jerky to have options that don't rot as fast, etc. Additionally, it makes rotten meat a bit easier to get since, if you need it, you can just let the meat rot.
Step 3: Alternative water sources, the main reason for my post and the thing I wanted to talk about the most. With jars being rare and needed for food, players will need a clean water option early on and the easiest thing to build in the real world is rainwater collectors. Dew collectors are also pretty simple, and building both could be ideal in some circumstances. Either one offers a clean water source not dependent on jars and could play a part in base design, a well even more so since it's a bit more limited in where it can be, but the well would almost definitely be a mid-game thing. Each possible water station should have pros and cons relating to how the water is collected and relating to speed, conditions, requirements, etc. I was mostly posting because, as I thought about this, I began wondering what ideas other players might come up with.
Bonus possibility: Another thing they could do to make people think strategically about their jars is simply lower the stack limit. Unfilled could be 10, filled could be 5, or even less. They could also add a canteen for water which doesn't stack at all, but can hold more than just one drink and is filled only at a watering station. Since the watering stations provide clean water as standard, jars for water would become more of an unnecessary hassle compared to the alternatives.
There's a lot that can be done to solve the same problem and I'm not saying this one solution is the only way to go or any arrogant claim like that. Mostly I just thought this would be fun to discuss and discussing it here might allow something to come of it, if other people agree and it reaches the devs that's awesome, if not then I get to learn more about what other players who enjoy this game think is fun or tedious.Part of the disconnect between what a jar of water actually is and what a jar of water is perceived to be is thanks to the fact that of all the consumables in the game, only a unit of water would return the empty container that held that unit of water. No other consumable in the game returns an empty container or dish. By removing the empty jar as an item, now a "jar of water" is exactly the same as a "canister of gas" or a "bowl of stew". They are just a graphical representation of a unit of that consumable as it sits in your inventory. The empty jar item was removed as part of the process of making the game work uniformly across the board and not only as a solution to early water survival problems.
Your ideas are great but if you really want them to gain traction they should be based on the idea that empty jars as an item in the game are gone for good. They've actually been gone from internal builds of A21 for about 8-10 months now. In A21, all consumables in the game operate in exactly the same way which is an extremely highly valued outcome for them.
If the developers decide to make adjustments to early game water survival based on community feedback in the future, even they will look for solutions and balancing adjustments that are based on no empty jars existing in the game. I hope this knowledge gives you a good challenge to consider your own solution ideas.
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1 hour ago, Doomofman said:
Is Crater Creator going to become Riddle Creator at some point? 😏
If you wish to learn the secrets of the universe you need only study @Crater Creator’s avatar— especially whenever he changes to a new one. 😀3 -
2 minutes ago, RipClaw said:
What if a crack a book is the quest POI? 😉
Then you'll do that first and then do the Police Station you saw before going back to the trader to get your reward.
Either way, looting is going to be a lot more promiscuous....
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10 hours ago, Old Crow said:
It'll be nice to see the stores become Crack-A-Book instead of being Lack-A-Book.
Literally...
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1 hour ago, Zombiepoptard said:
The reason that the life skills are roped in with combat skills is...
1 hour ago, Zombiepoptard said:It feels like the big dog is snoozing on 7 days to die and more focused on the other games they've been working on behind the scene
1 hour ago, Zombiepoptard said:Sorry to Roland but I doubt he relays anything to the dev team.
Three big attempts but.....three big misses. Sorry Poptard, your guesses are completely off tonight.
I do agree and I think most would agree that having more perks in each attribute would be a welcome additon. I've got nothing against that suggestion. Here's to hoping the devs will agree when I or more likely Crater Creator (who is our new Super Moderator) relays your feedback to the dev team. Or maybe @faatal who frequents the forums quite regularly will see your analysis and consider it along with the team.
I can't believe you forgot about poor @faatal
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1 hour ago, Aldranon said:
I didn't read if this is the case or not, but as POI tier increases, loot level should not increase linearly but almost (not quite) geometrically in comparison.
As things are right now, tier 3 POI are the "grinding point" where I just harvest loot from. Zero danger. As tier 5's and some tier 4's can be "gamed" right now, maybe it's all for the best, unless some changes to the POI's are made.
Loot progression, loot location, loot groups, loot everything has been balanced differently for A21 than it has been for A20. There is too much to describe it all. It can only be played to understand how it works with the changes to player progression. This is why so much of the angst over the crafting overhaul and the water survival changes exist. People can only conceive of the changes within the context that they know which is A20. But A20 is completely different than A21. For just the loot distribution and loot table and loot progression changes alone I can't even consider going back to A20. A21 is that much better.
That being said, some people are always going to exploit POIs and treasure rooms and the devs seem to be largely ambivalent about stopping players who wish to play the game that way. Apparently that is a sandbox element that shall remain at least for now. If you want to play the POIs straight you can but if you want to abuse them you can. A21 is not different in that regard. Its probably due to them going full tilt solo and cooperative as their main focus. If competitive multiplayer was a focus then such exploits would have to be closed in order to keep the game fair. But with no competition it isn't a high priority since players can govern themselves in solo gameplay or with their friends working together.
9 minutes ago, RipClaw said:I do all of that but that doesn't mean I do everything to the same extent or enjoy everything equally. I doubt that there are players for whom this is the case.
In most cases, it's somewhere between "I'm doing this activity because it's necessary" and "I'm doing this activity because I love it". Hardly anyone will really hate an activity.
If that is the case then I suspect A21 will be a major hit as those who like looting will love looting even more and those who see it as a necessary activity but not their favorite aspect of the game will most likely feel like that part of the game has been enhanced and made to be more rewarding. Some of those may even start to enjoy it. They will probably be the ones who target specific POIs rather than just questing so they can get that location probability bump for finding the types of magazines they're looking for.
"Hardly anyone" is exactly who should not be wagging the dog anyway so I think when people experience the changes they will have a positive reaction.
Honestly, the only faction I see truly hating the change are the speed runners who will no longer have direct control over the pace at which they learn the crafting recipes. It is going to be chance. Augmented chance, true, but still probably not as fast a climb up the ladder as they are accustomed to and no direct control over which ladder they are climbing....lol.
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1 hour ago, Zombiepoptard said:
Maybe you should make that part of the game more fun and accessible.
Ding! Ding! Ding! That is exactly what A21 has done with the magazine change. Glad we are on the same page.
1 hour ago, Zombiepoptard said:I think these devs are trying to make us believe this crap so they can put in low effort loot in the game to make looting feel more rewarding.
BUZZ! Wrong. But A+ in the conspiracy theory category.
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Alpha 21 Dev Diary
in News & Announcements
Posted
Now it's just my hobby...
I'll have a lot less to say about A22, trust me.
Same! Why do we even have diamond tipped mods for stuff when degradation matters so little?