Roland

The fact that I can do it as soon as I've obtained the recipe. Then if I put points into cooking in the strength tree, I can cook cheesecake faster and with fewer components because THAT is where my cooking skill increases-- when I spend skillpoints. It still works but I'll be the first to admit it is artificial and inelegant. There have always been progression gates in this game of one form or another. I see the linear order of recipes as a game enforced gate to protect the progression timeline. If it was purely random and I found the recipe for a tier 5 iron axe on day 1, then there would be quite a lot of subsequent finds that wouldn't matter at all and would be underwhelming as I played. It would be just like when a trader reward jumps you ahead five levels in your weapon and now the next five times you learn a new recipe it doesn't matter. It would also be frustrating because I would have the materials to be able to craft the next higher tier of whatever I knew how to craft now but I probably wouldn't have the parts needed for the more powerful recipe. Like I said, I can totally see your point of view and understand where you are coming from with why the magazine feels like skill progression and I have no problem with people looking at it that way. I look at it a different way and it makes sense to me. I would much rather have the forced linear order of recipe learning than to go back to being able to craft tier five of every tool once you learned the recipe for a tier 5 stone axe. This is much more satisfying even if it means we are forced to learn the recipes in a particular order in order to protect the fun of finding magazines and learning recipes.

I was asked to explain my thinking because people said they couldn't imagine it any other way than skill progression. So I obliged. There was no need in order to make sense of it for myself. It seemed obvious and apparent to me from the very beginning. I didn't flounder trying to come up with some way to explain it all. That seems to be you guys who want it to be skill progression instead of recipes. You can't quite make it fit to make sense of it whereas in my point of view when you think of the magazines purely as recipe acquisition everything makes complete sense. I mean look at @meilodasreh's problem with the food recipes. They think of the magazines as increasing skill and so get hung up on why cooking soup would lead to cooking steak or cheesecake. I just think of them as different recipes and so have never felt any kind of thematic disconnect over the soup to steak connection. I'm not getting more skilled at cooking soup so I can suddenly start baking cheesecakes. I'm already skilled enough to make cheesecakes but I don't have the recipe yet. Huge exaggeration. You would have to walk everywhere and set loot to 25% and only do one quest every other day to actually risk falling behind the gamestage. A normal player playing normally will always be ahead in their personal progression compared to the gamestage and people who do as you describe double-dipping bookstores and focusing 100% on consuming magazines will be so far ahead of gamestage as to make the game completely a cake walk. I don't know what you think "falling behind the gamestage" means but I don't think it means what you think it means. Perhaps if you are playing at the hardest difficulty and at 50% loot it might be a struggle to keep up with the game's progression but those settings are there to be challenging. At default or nomad or even warrior, a veteran player should have no problem keeping up with the game's progression without resorting to exploitive tactics to maximize magazine consumption. I mean if you like rushing your progression then have fun with that but let's not pretend it is actually necessary to rush magazine consumption in order to keep pace with the game.

The only way to find recipes, you mean, is to loot or shop for them. I see the parallel there. My commiseration to anyone who dislikes looting. It is definitely a core game activity now.

Most people are okay with crafting recipes being governed by random book finds but are not okay with perks and skills being governed by random book finds. Expanding the books to be the way a player initially learns recipes and perks isn't going to go over very well. There is already a discussion going on where people dislike that it requires finding books to learn the improved versions of each crafting recipe. Add in perks that are currently under the full control of player choice and pacing and they would be livid. No real problem with this other than it makes spending points less exciting. When you spend points to get a brand new skill or ability it feels worthwhile. If you spend points just to increase a stat in an existing skill or ability its fine but not very exciting. The main weakness I see with learn by doing is the reduced freedom to play the game as you like to play it and instead have to grind activities you may not enjoy simply to improve your stats to the point that it starts being enjoyable. Skillpoint purchasing lets you play doing the activities you enjoy but you can spend points in other areas to improve them to the point where they aren't arduous to do. Mining is a great example. If you hate mining with a stone axe but that is the only way to improve your axe and abilities to the point that you can mine with a steel pickaxe and maintain your stamina while doing so then that isn't a very fun journey. But if you can spend skillpoints to get to that point without being forced to grind mining and then enjoy mining with your better abilities then that is much more enjoyable. Another weakness of learn by doing is the way that it tends to overwhelm other gameplay loops and become the entire point of playing. Traders are a good example of the current state of the game. Trader and quest progression follows a learn by doing model. Questing gets you better at questing and brings greater rewards all for doing that activity. And what do we see? People complain that questing completely dominates the attention of players and is a must. Questing has ovewhelmed all other gameplay loops because of the power of the LBD incentive it carries. I was around before Alpha 11 which introduced the very first LBD mechanic of crafting to get better at crafting. It was like night and day how previously in Alpha 10 the game was about exploring, building, looting, and killing zombies and then in Alpha 11 it was about sitting around and spam crafting for the first few days to grind up all the tools. Spam crafting overwhelmed every other gameplay loop in the game and attaining top gear as quickly as possible became the whole reason for playing for a lot of people. I'm not saying that there couldn't be a hybrid system developed that incorporated skillpoints, learn by reading, and learn by doing nor that with some careful limits applied it wouldn't be the best overall system we've ever seen. But there are reasons why not everyone is keen to return to LBD and it isn't purely laziness on the part of the developers that it most likely will never happen.

If armor can make injuries and debuffs less likely I don't see a problem with something else making them more likely. There does need to be a wider variety of them. I wouldn't be against a return of a wellness as long as it is simply a measure of overall well-being and not something that can be gamed up and down by spamming foods and suiciding to fast travel.

They will remain with Unity for 7 Days to Die. The next TFP project uses Unreal engine and beyond that we simply don't know what they plan to do.

I'm just sharing my thought process and how I view it. If you want to think all the magazines are in mint condition, go for it. As I said, you probably need an actual graphic that shows pieces of each recipe coming together until the whole recipe is found in order to get it but I don't. I've always assumed that the books and magazines provided recipes and schematics. Some books have the whole recipe in one go but other recipes aren't whole until you've searched through a number of magazines. It's all perspective. You want the magazines to represent skill increases and skill progression. You then make it all work in your mind so that it makes sense as skill progression. The end result is something you don't like because skill progression shouldn't be random. I want the magazines to represent recipes. I then make it all work out in my mind so that it makes sense as recipes. The end result is something I like because finding recipes among the filth of the wasteland should be random. As for how the magazines are represented, we can't open the insides to see them. We just see the covers. Many of the book piles lying around look pretty ratty tattered and torn. The setting is post-apocalyptic, dirty, and run-down. Often when we open a shelf that is visually full of books all we get is worthless paper which also is evidence that much of the insides of the book covers shown is worthless unreadable paper. In my opinion, it is more of a stretch to assume the magazines are whole and pristine rather than partially readable and incomplete. I have been stating all along that I view the magazines as purely sources of recipes--even when it takes 3 magazines to gain one recipe so I haven't moved any goalposts. You said you couldn't imagine why I would see them that way so I provided you with the thematic reason. If you don't find it compelling then just keep right on interpreting things in a way that keeps leading to unfun for you. <shrug>

No problem. This one is simple. It is the apocalypse so any magazines you find are faded, have water damage, are missing pages, etc. If you find 8 copies of the same magazine you might be lucky to piece together whatever is legible or still there to figure out the next recipe. From the very beginning, I imagined the process of sifting through magazines to find bits and pieces of knowledge but I wouldn't have the entire recipe until I had found several copies. I never looked at it like I was reading a magazine and skilling up in knowledge and then reading the magazine again and skilling up in knowledge and then reading it again and skilling up in knowledge until I passed a threshold to where I was skilled enough to craft the next item. Instead, it was pieces of knowledge here and there with never a complete magazine but after finding parts of a few I would have the recipe needed. I've always considered my character skilled enough to craft anything in the game once the recipe was known and there was no progression of becoming more skilled-- it was always finding the recipes or schematics and as soon as I got the recipe I was good enough to craft it. Now in A21, you can spend skillpoints to become better at crafting. You don't learn recipes from spending points but you become more efficient and faster. This is the first time I have felt like crafting skill has a progression now that we can spend points to become better at crafting. The magazines are just recipes that I didn't know but once I can piece them together through my scavenging and research, I can craft them. Maybe if there was a puzzle graphic that showed a schematic with four missing pieces and every time you found a magazine it would provide one piece to the puzzle and after four magazines were found the schematic would be complete and the recipe would be unlocked, that would be an easier graphic for those who can't imagine it on their own. To me, piecing together parts of recipes from several partial magazines makes perfect sense with the randomness inherent with looting and enhances looting. The only problem I have with it at this time is the imbalance of high tier quest rewards that are too quickly advanced to which makes the need to find those recipes irrelevant because the trader gave you a better item than you'll be able to craft for days to weeks of game time.

I agree that perception trumps all. As to not understanding how I could possibly see it any other way, let's just say I've gotten good at looking at things from different perspectives. I definitely understand what you are saying and why you are interpreting the magazines as skill progression but I also see it as separate recipes. I am not nearly so bothered by it since I can view the quality levels as simply new recipes. Expanding your view to encompass different viewpoints is a skill that can be learned. I can see it both ways but I choose to accept that the only actual skill progression in the game are those perks you purchase with skillpoints and everything else is attained by scavenging items and knowledge. Skillpoints --> skill progression which is deterministic Magazines --> crafting recipes which is random Since you can't see it any other way than the one that makes the mechanic distasteful to you, I suppose you're stuck until a mod comes out.

It just demonstrates the problem in communication that exists. There has been so much misunderstanding about the magazines that it isn't surprising that people still think magazines represent skill progression. That's not their intended design but that's really neither here nor there. If a player can't help but think of it as skill progression and doesn't like that they have no control over the pace at which they grow in their skill, then it doesn't really matter that they are seen purely as recipe acquisition by the developers. They have forced a linear progression to which recipes you can acquire for sure.

That's a good point. It is still open to interpretation and each player will see it the way they wish. But I will point out that you must find the recipe for an AK-47 before you can find the recipe for an M-60 and you said you have no problem with the first time you gain the M-60 recipe.

I don't agree. They are both recipes that require a different number of ingredients. There is no difference between knowing how to make an Assault Rifle and then finding a recipe for an M60 and suddenly knowing how to make that compared to knowing how to make a brown M60 and then finding a recipe for an orange M60. They are all schematics you are learning. You are the one who is interpreting that new recipe as a skill increase in crafting. If TFP changed it so that every increase was a different gun but the stats were exactly the same and only the visual representation and name of the weapon in your hands was different would you suddenly be fine with each new recipe? I've never viewed any of the recipes as a skill increase. I've always seen them as better schematics to build a better gun even if it is called the same gun and looks the same in my hands on-screen. I don't see the magazine system as a skill-increasing system at all. It is a schematic-acquiring system and it is an alternative to finding or buying weapons. Would you call it a skill increase in shopping if you purchased a brown M60 on day 45 but then purchased an orange M60 on day 47? No, those were two different guns of the same model and you purchased both of them when they were available. Same thing with crafting. You have a recipe for a brown M60 and you craft it. Later you piece together notes from several other magazines and find the recipe for an orange M60 so you craft it. There is no skill progression in crafting other than what you can deterministically enact by buying skill points that increase speed and decrease material costs for crafting. Those are your skill advancements in crafting. Everything else is just new recipes.

If the progression curve of the players had even the smallest chance of falling behind the progression curve of the difficulty of the game then I might agree with you that unless you prioritize the opening of containers to the best person suited to that container your progression would be hindered to the detriment of possibly losing the game and being overwhelmed by the zombies. But both you and I know that isn't the case since it is phenomenally easy to quickly outpace what the game throws at us. If my group doesn't prioritize the opening of containers to maximize magazine distribution and just plays normally and your group does seek to maximize magazine boosts by each team member thus putting a strict limit on who opens any container then my group will be just be slightly ahead of the difficulty curve of the game while your group will be well beyond it almost from the very start. Personally, I would find your situation boring and a game of just rinsing and repeating all the activities without any challenge whereas my situation would carry risk and the possibility of being overwhelmed even if it still unlikely to happen. I've played the game with 50% loot and still managed to keep pace with the game's difficulty progression. So the question really is why does your group feel the need to progress so quickly that you'll do it at the expense of keeping things simple and fun for everyone? If you loosened up your strict rules about who gets to open what container so that your team dynamic wasn't so complicated and unfun you'd STILL find yourselves ahead of the game progression curve. The excuse that you don't want to hinder your progression is irrelevant because you could slow your pace by quite a bit and still keep pace with the game so there isn't any effectual hinderance relative to the game in any case.

It's a hybrid at this point. For simplicity's sake they won't change the name of their updates but there is no question that the current development phase definitely has elements of beta and there are precious few new core features that still need to be added. On topic, due to the nature of the voxel terrain, they may never completely solve this issue so that players are guaranteed to never lose a vehicle as the world generates. They've reduced the use cases dramatically but it is definitely a good idea to pick up your vehicles before logging out. That being said, I've left my vehicles out parked around my base for years now and haven't lost a single one in both single and multi-player games.

Mazal Tov!

They're working on a pop-up message that will remind you periodically to remove any empty cups or mugs you might have on your desk near your monitor because they don't want empty containers in the game or near the game.

I get it that it is about realism but my point is that when we purchase a game and encounter its rules for the first time we tend to accept them as the way that game plays. I'm willing to bet that if you found this game today and purchased it and played it you would probably think that it was weird that water could not be gathered but you also probably would have quickly accepted it as a quirky limitation imposed by the developers-- especially if you felt that overall it was a fun game. The main source of fuel for the debate is the fact that it was one way and now it is another and people who experienced both and liked the original way care enough to bring it up. Now, on the other hand, I'm willing to admit that if TFP changed it back to us being able to gather water from water sources probably few to none of the new players who have only known the A21 ruleset would complain about suddenly being able to gather water and getting empty jars back after drinking. 🤣

There are tons of games that all handle water survival differently. Some even ignore water and thirst altogether. Any time I approach a game in the survival genre I figure out what the rules are and then adopt those in my gameplay and survival strategies. Very rarely have I seen a game that makes all survival features hyper realistic. The issue that is really going on here is that there are some long-time players who were used to the old mechanics and found the new mechanic jarring compared to the old. That's the entire reason for the debate. Most new players won't reject the game or proclaim it not survival because of how jars are represented or that there are limitations imposed on gathering water. They will simply come to figure out what the mechanic is and then adopt the game's reality into their personal gameplay. Some will make connections in their mind to explain why it is the way it is to help their own immersion and others won't even think about it once they understand how it works. Inventory is a great example of something that people joke about how unrealistic it is but nobody really expects it to conform to reality. In fact, many double down and install backpack enlargement mods so they can push things to even greater unrealistic proportions. I wonder how many people complaining about the lack of empty jars and how it is unrealistic that we can't gather water into containers from lakes currently have a backpack mod installed...

I'm pretty sure looting toilets for water is more of a funny gag than an attempt to realistically mirror the evaporation state of water tanks after 6 months of inactivity. I agree that murky water in loot is too high. It was originally lower before the release and I don't know whether someone panicked at the last minute about possible death spirals due to thirst and so upped it to make things more forgiving but it sure seems like the need to drink from ponds, rivers, and gutters was real and a dew collector was a must in the pre-release version and now they seem optional to just scavenging POIs for all you really need.

Diablo is basically a university degree program in min/maxing. It promotes it, rewards it, and there are zero drawbacks to doing it with that game. In fact, it is required in order to keep progressing in the game from quest to quest without having to stop and grind on lesser dungeons for awhile in order to get your character up to scratch for whatever your current quest is. 7 Days to Die is not designed for min/maxing. It allows it but most who do it quickly feel unsatisfied and bored since the game's difficulty curve is so easily maintained without particularly focusing on min/maxing. In addition the progression ladder is much shorter than Diablo so min/maxing will get the player to the end of 7 Day's content extremely fast and then it is just the same thing with nothing new to strive for all the time. You CAN play 7 Days to Die like Diablo but people should be mindful of what results they want to get and understand that 7 Days to Die questing and dungeon delving does not have to be played similarly to Diablo at all. Do it if it brings you joy but stop it if it frustrates you and makes the game end too quickly.

They're hoping we will count A22 development from the day they start the A22 dev diary so they can come in under a year...

IMPORTANT!!!!! good luck.

No worries. I think there are a lot of good ideas that have been floated that restore the immersion of being able to gather water from water sources but still keep empty jars absent as items. I'm not opposed to tweaks to the current system. I'm also fine with the current system as it is and I'm perfectly okay with the fact that some people aren't going to like it. All of these ideas are great starters for new mods even if TFP decides not to change things.

In regards to this idea, I too would like to know what exactly happens to the incapacitated players? Do they just sit and wait? Are they watching the rest play in some kind of view format? Are they logged out and log in until the first aid kit is applied? Could be fun but it could also be super boring if it takes a long time for a team mate to come get you especially if it means missing out on most of horde night. Not against it as an option for sure.

Cool. So can you just start calling it that and be satisfied....?