Primary/secondary attack changes and harvesting...

[Maynard69]

Lol, I can understand having to deal with people complaining on the forums all day, but the level of disdain is quite amusing really. If ya'll like the changes, more power to you I guess.

 

Hard to not like obvious improvements from the last build. There is no negatives to this particular change.

[Deceptive Pastry]

Ah, I realized I mixed up entity and block damage before thinking fireaxe. Before it was 2x stamina for 2.3x damage, not 3x. I think the sledge hammer was 2.7x though if not mistaken.

[Kalarro]

I havent tested it, so just answering from what Im reading here.

 

They are talking about reward vs cost, but for the numbers Im reading, the reward looks too little for the cost.

 

On one hand they are trying to make power attack something you just do sometimes. Thats fine, how it should be IMO.

But on the other, for it to be worth, you need to spend several perks.

 

I think they did the right thing, but just double limitations. Dont make it only good in special occasions, and at the same time only if you perked for it. Id say it should be always worth in special occasions, and if you perk for it, even better and maybe even worth outside of those special occasions.

[fazi]

So before it was roughly 2x stamina for 3x damage. Now it is 3x stamina for 2x damage. Which is a completely reasonable nerf. But I tried it out in-game and the stam freeze ontop of that is just awful. Absolutely awful. That is getting modded out for sure. Taking 50-60 stam per power attack is plenty to prevent power attack spam imo.

 

Power attack is supposed to be used only when necessary, not on each zombie/rock, etc.

[Ghostlight]

Do as you wish, of course, but having a recovery moment makes the move more risky and something that must be considered rather than an automatic press if you have the stamina. Just because you have the stamina to pull it off do you also have the space and time available for the recovery IF the zombie doesn't go down or if you miss or if there are multiple enemies close by? It makes the choice more interesting.

 

I guess it must be me but everything you just described....I just can't understand why anyone would find that gameplay good. Basically each swing I need to keep taking my eye off the game to look at a bar and repeat an annoying mental calculation just to determine whether doing a power attack next will be good...or fatal.

 

As for mining, bottom line is it is now slower than it was. More resource per rock/tree but less per minute. And it was already boringly, tediously slow.

[Ghostlight]

But a16 was the biggest "hello kitty" "fluffy bunny" version that I can remember. Thats the problem. People got used to ez mindless gameplay .

 

When you become OP in A17, it is even more fluffy bunny than A16.4 ever was (2-3 shotting Irradiated cops) and this occurs MUCH earlier than it ever did in A16.4. I guess you just haven't got that far in A17.

 

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Looting less interesting?

 

Looting no longer necessary, once you hit level 100-ish.

[Kage848]

I guess it must be me but everything you just described....I just can't understand why anyone would find that gameplay good. Basically each swing I need to keep taking my eye off the game to look at a bar and repeat an annoying mental calculation just to determine whether doing a power attack next will be good...or fatal.

 

As for mining, bottom line is it is now slower than it was. More resource per rock/tree but less per minute. And it was already boringly, tediously slow.

 

I haven't mined in the newest updat but if it is indeed slower thats a terrible mistake. You're 100% correct. Mining was already slow and boring, at least in early game, it did get better later. And if they slowed it even more that is a shame. Dont know why you want to have parts of your early game so damn boring and uninspired. They really dont seem to care about builders

 

I wont even bother making a horde base till 20.

[Kosmic Kerman]

Base building is honestly not much different from A15 or A16 it terms of time spent. In prior versions, I’d spend several days making a base for the first 7 day horde. It’s about the same now. It takes me a little longer in A17 but part of that is learning how to do it efficiently. If I don’t feel like putting. In the time I’ll just convert a POI. As to power attacks, I use them when I’m full stamina and switch to regular attacks when I run out. I’ve gotten a couple of one hit kills with a club and so they are definitely more powerful when you get the right roll.

[Kage848]

Base building is honestly not much different from A15 or A16 it terms of time spent. In prior versions, I’d spend several days making a base for the first 7 day horde. It’s about the same now. It takes me a little longer in A17 but part of that is learning how to do it efficiently. If I don’t feel like putting. In the time I’ll just convert a POI. As to power attacks, I use them when I’m full stamina and switch to regular attacks when I run out. I’ve gotten a couple of one hit kills with a club and so they are definitely more powerful when you get the right roll.

 

Sorry but there's no way it takes the same amount of time to gather the resources in 17, using stone tools, than 16, having iron tools on day 1.

[Dracos99]

I thought Power Attack was supposed to be Spammed. I remember MadMole saying if you are not power attacking every swing, you are doing it wrong...

 

I dont want something for nothing...but i also dont want to micro manage a bar in the middle of combat.

 

If it is intended to be something for special occasions, it should be removed from right click completely/made a normal swing (or maybe a light damage AoE swing) and handled solely via perks that do additional damage after x hits.

 

Maybe just make it do a normal swing if there is not enough stamina? Or scale the damage based on how much stamina is available? Having to constantly look at a bar in the lower corner or doing nothing when you click seems kinda broken from an immersion standpoint.

[Kalarro]

Dont know why you want to have parts of your early game so damn boring and uninspired. They really dont seem to care about builders

 

Because the other option was to create endgame content. Once having a secure base, players got bored and asked for more content.

Slowing early progression (at least the gathering/building part), and making our bases less secure, is easier than creating new content.

[Limdood]

So before it was roughly 2x stamina for 3x damage. Now it is 3x stamina for 2x damage. Which is a completely reasonable nerf. But I tried it out in-game and the stam freeze ontop of that is just awful. Absolutely awful. That is getting modded out for sure. Taking 50-60 stam per power attack is plenty to prevent power attack spam imo.

 

In b208, I needed a few ranks of the head damage perk, a sizable strength bonus, and a few mods in a sledgehammer to kill a regular Male zombie in 1 headshot on nomad. In b221, I used a 1- mod sledge with 4 strength and NO supporting mods to do the same thing. Sounds like a damage increase, not a reduction.

 

Also, the TIME benefit of power attacks needed to be addressed. The direction seems to be "we don't EVER want you spamming only power attack," so if it was only increased cost, it would get perked and modded down and people would be back to spamming it, even with 3x cost and2x benefit... because that's still taking down zombies 4x faster.

 

It most certainly requires a new mindset, but power attack is most certainly still usable. My biggest gripe with it is that it makes the nonsensical pinpoint melee targeting even more punishing... if i miss with a power attack (regardless of the fact that the zombie just moved his head further along the arc the weapon was already traveling), the regen pause makes it even more punishing than before

[Ghostlight]

Because the other option was to create endgame content. Once having a secure base, players got bored and asked for more content.

Slowing early progression (at least the gathering/building part), and making our bases less secure, is easier than creating new content.

 

Sad but true

[Maynard69]

I haven't mined in the newest updat but if it is indeed slower thats a terrible mistake. You're 100% correct. Mining was already slow and boring, at least in early game, it did get better later. And if they slowed it even more that is a shame. Dont know why you want to have parts of your early game so damn boring and uninspired. They really dont seem to care about builders

 

I wont even bother making a horde base till 20.

 

Why anybody even tries to make a base before lvl 20 is beyond me. If you woke up naked in the forest and realized everyone was a zombie, would you tie a rock to a stick and try to build a house? there is other options besides that when u first start out. Like making due until you get a hold of the tools you need to build something.

 

When I hit level 20 I made some tools and went and mined. With perks I was 5 shotting rock and getting 12k rocks in a night and getting 2k rocks before I had to rest. (for about 5 seconds) Maybe you guys should test it out before passing judgement.

[Kalarro]

Why anybody even tries to make a base before lvl 20 is beyond me.

 

Because it's what makes this game the best survival game out there. I can assure you it sure isnt the combat system

[PoppaTot]

Because the other option was to create endgame content. Once having a secure base, players got bored and asked for more content.

Slowing early progression (at least the gathering/building part), and making our bases less secure, is easier than creating new content.

 

Seems to have backfired, atleast in my case. The nerf on building made the game faster for me. I forgo building a home base now and just secure existing POIs early game. Then, I start building a horde base. The reason I say that it backfired and is faster is because TFP made me "adapt" and now I just kill zombies to get what I need. I forget about mining or building until I'm power-leveled to unlock items that are necessities for building a good horde base and to top it off... the AI is wayyyyyy easier to fool, you can literally make a horde go slower than walking with barbed wire and put them in loop.....

 

TLDR levels are faster, mining really isn't needed, building is less fun because the new AI pathing is easily cheesed... Trying to slow the game down in the beginning actually made the game shorter and easier (in my opinion) and lessened the replay value with removing the RNG

 

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Why anybody even tries to make a base before lvl 20 is beyond me. If you woke up naked in the forest and realized everyone was a zombie, would you tie a rock to a stick and try to build a house? there is other options besides that when u first start out. Like making due until you get a hold of the tools you need to build something.

 

When I hit level 20 I made some tools and went and mined. With perks I was 5 shotting rock and getting 12k rocks in a night and getting 2k rocks before I had to rest. (for about 5 seconds) Maybe you guys should test it out before passing judgement.

 

I love the realism argument lol. If I were in this scenario I would wonder why after killing X amount of zombies an audible alert played and then all the sudden I could do things I couldn't 5 seconds ago lmao

[Maynard69]

When you become OP in A17, it is even more fluffy bunny than A16.4 ever was (2-3 shotting Irradiated cops) and this occurs MUCH earlier than it ever did in A16.4. I guess you just haven't got that far in A17.

 

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Looting no longer necessary, once you hit level 100-ish.

 

a) and? OP vs every threat that is planned to be added to game in the future (like bandits and whatever else) How would u know? Games not done yet

So you are past level 100 in the current build? or just still whining about the last experiment?

 

b) Is all loot already in the game that ever will be? You dont think they plan to add any other stuff we might want to loot late game? Like mods, legendary weapons ect., mats for who knows what.

 

Every complaint about everything (and i mean everything since you complain about every possible thing) ive seen on these forum from you has the tone of someone who doesnt understand the difference between a complete game and WIP.

[WolfyBlah]

Of course, since you were quoting the previous x3 modifier that required level 100.

 

I doubt anyone can keep a straight face and say that being able to exclusively spam "power attacks" was good gameplay.

It's experimental. Mistakes were made and corrected.

 

 

 

Yes, a power attack with a sledgehammer can do over 600 damage.

 

Il take that challange. Melee in A17 is as pathetic as ever and adding a slower attack really did nothig but pad out the perks.

 

Id honestly be way more intrested in a blocking mechanic than a slightly slower more powerful attack.

 

Want to see a modern melee system that works amazingly well? Go check out KillingFloor2.

It has light and heavy attacks (L/R mouse) that is directional based on your movement (moving forward will do an overhead attack, strafing right will swing the weapon horizontally) as well as a bash or stab attack (weapon dependant, bound to 'V', with a gun equipped this wil bash with the weapon butt) and ontop of that blocking (hold mmb) and parrying (perfectly timed block).

 

Id like to see zombies be way more reactive to melee, those 'pain' animations are pretty dreadful though (both from an immersion standpoint and gameplay wise).

By reacting to melee i dont mean clutching thier side and going for an oscar or playig the falldown-getup game (honestly not sure why TFP did this, have MORE trouble telling is somthig is actually dead in this alpha than in a16).

I mean i want them to react physically like they have been hit by somthig, both with proper impact reaction (hit somthing in the side of the head with sledghammer? Ragdoll) and based on damage (hit somthings leg a lot and it starts limping)

[Maynard69]

I love the realism argument lol. If I were in this scenario I would wonder why after killing X amount of zombies an audible alert played and then all the sudden I could do things I couldn't 5 seconds ago lmao

 

Its not realism. Its literally how you begin the game. And my first thought is never, I need to build something with this stone axe.

[cricket504]

Just watched G4K's latest vid and he looked at the difference between right and left click attacks and mining/digging/chopping. I was critical of the nerf that harvesting had taken and now it appears like that was addressed. I do feel for the players getting the nerf on power attacks. I'm more a ranged weapon person, but plenty of friends love the sledge hammer or axe. Hopefully by A17S, TFP's will have the balance fine tuned, though I do feel for TFP's as no matter what, someone will not be happy with balance.

[PoppaTot]

Its not realism. Its literally how you begin the game. And my first thought is never, I need to build something with this stone axe.

 

You still asked the question about if it was you, that is realism regardless if that is how the game starts lol. Nor should your fist thought be the need to build something with a stone axe... may it should be how, how do I replace these primitive stone tools to better prepare myself for this apocalypse I find myself in.

[Maynard69]

You still asked the question about if it was you, that is realism regardless if that is how the game starts lol. Nor should your fist thought be the need to build something with a stone axe... may it should be how, how do I replace these primitive stone tools to better prepare myself for this apocalypse I find myself in.

 

I mean, if we go by your train of thought here, we are way off base. Technically, your first thought should be "What are these weird gauges in the air following me around and why do I have a HP bar?"

 

 

I understand you dont like the skill-progression and want throw it pot-shots at it. Thats cool, but its off subject and not relevant tho, tbh.

[PoppaTot]

I mean, if we go by your train of thought here, we are way off base. Technically, your first thought should be "What are these weird gauges in the air following me around and why do I have a HP bar?"

 

 

I understand you dont like the skill-progression and want throw it pot-shots at it. Thats cool, but its off subject and not relevant tho, tbh.

 

That's not my thought process, that is the thought process behind the realism argument. And it's not off your topic when you try throw realism in the discussion. You clearly understand that by throwing "pot-shots" at my statements that show how irrelevant it is to toss realism in in the first place. That leaves only one reasonable outcome; you use the realism argument when it suits you and dismiss it when it doesn't.

[Maynard69]

Seems to have backfired, atleast in my case. The nerf on building made the game faster for me. I forgo building a home base now and just secure existing POIs early game. Then, I start building a horde base. The reason I say that it backfired and is faster is because TFP made me "adapt" and now I just kill zombies to get what I need. I forget about mining or building until I'm power-leveled to unlock items that are necessities for building a good horde base and to top it off... the AI is wayyyyyy easier to fool, you can literally make a horde go slower than walking with barbed wire and put them in loop.....

 

TLDR levels are faster, mining really isn't needed, building is less fun because the new AI pathing is easily cheesed... Trying to slow the game down in the beginning actually made the game shorter and easier (in my opinion) and lessened the replay value with removing the RNG

 

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I honestly dont like killing Z's being the main focus for the player to level optimally either, and dont think its as fun to feel like you have to in order to get going in the game. Killing zombies is definitely not the the highlight or best feature of the game. Mining building and creating stuff should net you equal xp to hunting zombies imo. In a16 it was the opposite. You could level faster than anyone just mining with an auger.

 

If it was equal on both sides it would lessen the blow of having to do 1 activity to skill level another. It would make the current perk system a little easier to swallow I think because you could just build or whatever and still feel like you are progressing. Your activities building would net you skills in building if you want.

 

Idk, Im still holding out, believing they are going to make this current system better than what we had by the time they are done with it. They got a master-plan somewhere that is going to do the trick. The old system was pretty damn good tho, it had some great features that made the game amazingly replayable, that I guess probably was one the best highlights of the game. Hopefully they can capture that again under the current system somehow, because there is good parts here too, they just arent being showcased rn.

 

The AI was way more easily cheesed in a16. (Just dig 5 blocks down) That didnt mean you had to play that way. Same applies to this version

[PoppaTot]

I honestly dont like killing Z's being the main focus for the player to level optimally either, and dont think its as fun to feel like you have to in order to get going in the game. Killing zombies is definitely not the the highlight or best feature of the game. Mining building and creating stuff should net you equal xp to hunting zombies imo. In a16 it was the opposite. You could level faster than anyone just mining with an auger.

 

If it was equal on both sides it would lessen the blow of having to do 1 activity to skill level another. It would make the current perk system a little easier to swallow I think because you could just build or whatever and still feel like you are progressing. Your activities building would net you skills in building if you want.

 

Idk, Im still holding out, believing they are going to make this current system better than what we had by the time they are done with it. They got a master-plan somewhere that is going to do the trick. The old system was pretty damn good tho, it had some great features that made the game amazingly replayable, that I guess probably was one the best highlights of the game. Hopefully they can capture that again under the current system somehow, because there is good parts here too, they just arent being showcased rn.

 

The AI was way more easily cheesed in a16. (Just dig 5 blocks down) That didnt mean you had to play that way. Same applies to this version

 

I agree with you on the whole post.