How do we make a Hybrid work?

[LuckyStar]

A discussion on making a Hybrid between the A16 system of Leveling through Doing and A17's Gated Leveling.

 

**Disclaimer**

 

1) This is not a rant thread. You want to complain about A17 then find one of many complaining threads and do so there.

We're looking for ideas and solutions.

 

2) Level Gating isn't going away. Accept it and move on.

[but it can be improved right?]

 

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So on that note let's see if we can come up with a viable solution using a Hybrid.

 

 

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I'll throw the first idea out there.

 

- Point system could involve both types of experience.

Maybe by mining you can earn "other" points that could eventually buy you a related Perk thus saving a precious point to spend somewhere else.

 

I've seen other games use this sort of thing.

Blue experience

Green experience

Red experience.

 

Each colour can only be spent on certain things, sort of thing.

 

It could be implemented easily with the current system and it's a good compromise.

Not only that, I think I'd prefer it. I think both systems have their merit.

[Frekton]

Does the current system have a way to calculate/accumulate xp from actions such as mining or using a weapon and store it for that particular action?

[LuckyStar]

Does the current system have a way to calculate/accumulate xp from actions such as mining or using a weapon and store it for that particular action?

 

Did you play A16?

 

We leveled by doing things.

 

Cutting Trees/Mining/Digging gave experience in mining tools.

 

Though... no one wants to see the really old system where everyone spam crafted stone axes for the first three nights.

[Frekton]

I asked if the "current system" could do that not a16.

[AtomicUs5000]

I think that the current perks should stay, but reduce or improve their effects with the addition of skills in mind. By skills, I mean the typical learn by doing for some things. The rewards for leveling in these areas can be scaled such that what was removed from the perks can be made up with the skills. Then, these skills can be viewed on a separate tab from the perks. Of course, there could be some skills that have no related perks, and some perks could have no related skills.

[LuckyStar]

You know I'm not sure how Books/Schematics would work in a Hybrid system.

 

Just thought about that.

 

 

I asked if the "current system" could do that not a16.

 

 

Yeah clearly the mechanics for that system are still built in.

Why wouldn't they work in A17?

[AtomicUs5000]

You know I'm not sure how Books/Schematics would work in a Hybrid system.

 

Just thought about that.

 

Just leave them attached to the perks.

[BloodDeacon]

After a bit more exploring A17 I still find the magazine system to be lackluster, and many of them to be completely useless regardless of build. I'd much prefer a system where you could sub diligence for finding books as a substitute or augmentation to perk points. Some possible ideas

1) Reading enough material (3 or 4 books, for example) related to a particular skill could grant a single perk point. Either 3/4 of the same copy or 3/4 distinct books related to the subject would be required. Presumably you'd be able to only get one perk point via this method at most.

2) Reading rare books would grant much smaller, but noticeable bonuses attached to and possibly dependent upon perk level.

[Spider]

True Survival will bring back many missed A16 features like gaining xp towards actions skills, books in loot, forge molds, gun parts and much more. Maybe even husbandry if all goes well. Wont be out till after stable though.

[Scyris]

Str shouldn't be something you spend points on but something you raise by doing:

 

Str raises by: mining/destroying blocks with melee weapons/tools, and meleeing zombies.

 

Perception: raises by shooting ranged weapons. Maybe also by looting as the looting perks are in perception.

 

Fortitude: hmm, taking hits, eating and drinking could add exp to this.

 

Intel: This one here I have no idea how to raise it, maybe books in the world can add intel exp? I would say crafting but you wanna get away from the spam crafting stuff. Would say using medical items, but again that would be the whole craft 10 thousand bandages to up medicine skill thing again. Maybe also have intel exp just be gathered slowly as you survive, kinda like how you gain exp in ark survival evolved just by staying alive.

 

Agility: This ones easy, walking/running around, jumping etc. With walking giving much less exp than running.

 

I also feel stats should do more, Str is fine as it effects 2 things, the rest however need a secondary thing they effect. Some ideas I had:

 

Agility, each level in agility ups movement speed by a small percent. maybe 20% at lv 10 agility, 30% by lv 20 agility. To help offset armor penalties.

 

Well thats about all I got, I was thinking of maybe +head shot damage per point in perception.

[Scyris]

True Survival will bring back many missed A16 features like gaining xp towards actions skills, books in loot, forge molds, gun parts and much more. Maybe even husbandry if all goes well. Wont be out till after stable though.

 

Just try to not make the mistake most modders do where they think more grind=challenge (protip its not.)

[LuckyStar]

Str shouldn't be something you spend points on but something you raise by doing:

 

Str raises by: mining/destroying blocks with melee weapons/tools, and meleeing zombies.

 

Perception: raises by shooting ranged weapons. Maybe also by looting as the looting perks are in perception.

 

Fortitude: hmm, taking hits, eating and drinking could add exp to this.

 

Intel: This one here I have no idea how to raise it, maybe books in the world can add intel exp? I would say crafting but you wanna get away from the spam crafting stuff. Would say using medical items, but again that would be the whole craft 10 thousand bandages to up medicine skill thing again. Maybe also have intel exp just be gathered slowly as you survive, kinda like how you gain exp in ark survival evolved just by staying alive.

 

Agility: This ones easy, walking/running around, jumping etc. With walking giving much less exp than running.

 

I also feel stats should do more, Str is fine as it effects 2 things, the rest however need a secondary thing they effect. Some ideas I had:

 

Agility, each level in agility ups movement speed by a small percent. maybe 20% at lv 10 agility, 30% by lv 20 agility. To help offset armor penalties.

 

Well thats about all I got, I was thinking of maybe +head shot damage per point in perception.

 

I don't often agree with a whole post but you sir have some great ideas!

 

 

After a bit more exploring A17 I still find the magazine system to be lackluster, and many of them to be completely useless regardless of build. I'd much prefer a system where you could sub diligence for finding books as a substitute or augmentation to perk points. Some possible ideas

1) Reading enough material (3 or 4 books, for example) related to a particular skill could grant a single perk point. Either 3/4 of the same copy or 3/4 distinct books related to the subject would be required. Presumably you'd be able to only get one perk point via this method at most.

2) Reading rare books would grant much smaller, but noticeable bonuses attached to and possibly dependent upon perk level.

 

One of the Mods I played utilized a system similar to this quite successfully!

Players really seemed to enjoy it.

[Ghostlight]

1) Take A17

2) Revert every single change that was made other than: new POIs, new graphics, zombie AI, new vehicles, difficulty and combat

 

Bang! You now have a fantastic game that is far better than A17, has replayability via variety in play-throughs, and is not for casuals who want everything given with no effort.

[Shiana]

or: take a17e, and wait a little. - no, not until a17.1 is out, but until the Undead Legacy Mod is out. This could be what we expected from a17 before. (http://ul.subquake.com/wiki/Main_Page)

[Rez090]

Agility: This ones easy, walking/running around, jumping etc. With walking giving much less exp than running./QUOTE]

 

Your suggestion reminds me of one of the skills from Oblivion, the one that leveled up from running, jumping, etc.

[Bubbahotetp]

I've read only about 80% of the thread so far.

 

I'd suggest:

- Learning by doing, with some xp gain

 

- Skill tree only for skills that are in related skill groups, the rest open, but maybe with higher point requirements depending on how advanced the skill is.

 

- Limited skill books as an alternative to grinding skills purely by hand, the skill books giving a number of points (10-20, depending on when the skill is said to be learned, maybe at 100?) as a bonus toward the skill, but not just autimatically unlocking said skill as previously.

 

- Resource gating for important work stations. Let the player work harder to get the forge, workbench, chem station and if possible make them quality grade affecting their productivity depening on the quality of them.

 

The same in a little more detail:

 

My take would be to take back the experience system from a16 where you learn by doing, but you gain experience as well. Maybe that gain could be toned down for example mining and resource gathering. I would leave the skills relatively open but only get related ones that logically tie together. Sadly there aren't too many of those. But let's say you would advance from riding a bike to riding the minibike, then to the motorcycle. Or you have to get to a certain base level in mining before you can start using an auger. You would have to be able to make some certain ammount of gun powder before you can start playing around with making TNT/Dynamite.

 

For difficult skills I would as previously require the player to either learn the skill the hard way (by doing) or to let the player get a bonus in points toward the wanted skill through reading (maybe reading repeatedly) a rare book he or she is going to spend a long time looking for. That gives options.

 

I would resource gate a lot more rather than skill- or XP or level gate (except for related skills that have a natural progression order like the kind of stuff I exemplified above).

 

A lot of people have reacted to the forge being a 30min item if you're lucky. I can see the point of making that a later achievement. However, I wouldn't make it an artificial level and skillpoint requirement that decides wether you can build it. I would say this: You have to learn masonry (a skill available from the beginning but which still needs a little bit of attention) or find the masonry book to gain some free points towards masonry, for you to be allowed to build the forge. Building it I would then make sure you need a few more production steps and slightly more materials to build it. The forge is quite straight forward, but the bellows might need some glue and nails, not only wood, leather and iron pipe. That pushes the production of the the bellow quite a few days away since you first had to find everything.

 

Also, building such complicated workstations (like for example the forge, workbench, chem station) should maybe also incorporate a quality aspect. Either when trying to build it you might fail and you might have to try to salvage a percentage of the materials and try again, or a forge might only be a 50-100 quality item to begin with because your masonry skill is too low. That way also using a forge would take longer, it could be less efficient. You might have to build several forges in order to get your productivity up, thus also leaving a much bigger heat map foot print.

 

All these things are ways to naturally delay your progress without it being immersion destroying - which artificial level gating is. I don't even like it that much in a16. If there are ways to delay something naturally and make the player work for it, then it's always better than saying "Wait! You can't do this because you're not yet some arbitrary level that someone decided you have to be!".