Edem_Alive Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Hello, Before you read too far, I'd like to say that I have roughly 5,500 Hours spent 100% on PVP servers. Most of my friends are 7500 hours+, so we bring a lot of knowledge. The things I am going to cover are mostly based on changes made in A17 vs A16. I've done 4-5 hours of testing in creative with a few friends this evening. I am NOT starting at lvl 1 and playing the game. This is all end game testing. I AM NOT done with testing, and plan to update this further. ----------------------------------------------- I'd like to first point out the things I dislike so far. 1: All the MM hype about not being able to max all skills. I was able to max everything with 21 points left over. (Roland stated later in the post that it wasn't up to just MM or Gazz, so they decided to put in enough points for everyone by raising level cap, I edited out most of this original post). 2. Mining. All skills maxed with a purple auger and it takes 3 hits to break a block of sand that used to take 1 hit. Obviously its good for people defending their base and bad for people attacking a base, especially when you put a 21x modifier on it. Terrible for raiding. It takes 14 hits to break an unclaimed stone block. I notice that there are 4 modifier slots on the auger, but there doesn't seem to be anything to go in the slots..? Maybe I missed something? EDIT: Roland stated that their have not been mods released yet, which may or may not increase damage to 1 hit. 3.1 Actual PVP gun fighting. It used to be a one shot dome kill pretty much no matter what with a sniper. It now seems to take about 5 hits which for a lot of people (inferior pvpers) is a great change. For stealth and single player PVP it is a terrible thing. I'm really 50/50 on this, but the stupid part about this is that an AK is only 3 shots to the dome. The AK also has literally 0 recoil now with an increase to spread. The way it was before the recoil was so intense you missed 50% of the time anyway, now you're down to no recoil and (15% spread)? idk the exact number. Basically all other weapons are obsolete in comparison to the AK, ESPECIALLY since you can put a 4x on it now. 3.2 Suppressors (called silencers in this game) do not seem to suppress fire at any range. In fact, they seem to be louder than "un-suppressed" weapons. Once again the MP5 (smg), the only weapon that actually appears to have an integral suppressor, as well as firing a smaller quieter cartridge, seems to be the loudest of them all. Seems to be a worthless attachment. 4. Nightvision. It seems to me that its not all that bad, maybe more OP than A16. Others in the squad think its terrible. It seems to be almost better than daylight for being able to see enemies. I think it should be toned way down. Things are too bright, too easy to see, EXCEPT the crosshairs! What the heck lol. The ghost outline on the gun is difficult to acquire targets. 5. Vehicles. I should probably let this one play out. Again, there seems to be modifier slots, but no modifications that do anything. Vehicles are super slow. Vehicles do not seem to damage enemys. They do damage NPC's. They do damage blocks. Bring back player damage in cars. Why did you remove it... Bicycles seem to be the fastest/quietest vehicle. Gyrocopters are strange to control, but definitely a cool add. Also cool to shoot down, but very difficult to shoot down at high altitude. A new weapon is in order (SAM). 6. Lasers. Absolute trasssssshhhhhhhh. The laser dot in hipfire does not hit where you point. It is so bad that i have to aim at a persons left shoulder (facing me) in order to hit their head. The laser is SO bright that you can pin point a player from 100m away EASILY. Its like a batman beacon. This needs to be fixed or it is just another do not use feature. 7. Back to augers. I got tipped off on a bug where you auger a block, log out, come back in, auger the block again, and suddenly you do extreme enormous amounts of auger damage. (instead of the previously mentions 14 hits to a stone block its now basically a 1 hit) 8. Maybe one of the worst things is the changes to explosives. WTF?? I put 30 TNT IN A ROW. Shot them. THEY DID ONLY 50 DAMAGE to the asphalt beneath. It also does not allow me to strip mine below the surface like I used to, in order to create tunnels quickly. TNT is made to remove material quickly in mining. After more testing, dynamite seems to have been buffed. Pipe bombs are still as worthless as ever. 9. Strafing and running backwards. Currently there is no running backwards. I think jumping or leaping back and 1/2 speed or something would be more realistic than only being able to walk backwards. Strafing is important for shooting players, not so important I guess if no one can strafe. 10. Aiming and target acquisition. For whatever reason, the aiming has just gone completely to hell. It appears to move in (for lack of a better word) "ticks". I may be on the highest sensitivity, but my crosshairs will move 1/16th of an inch on screen, when it should be moving 1/128th or something very small. It is not SMOOTH, it feels choppy and nearly unusable unless you combine lateral character movement. For vertical cross-hair movement you can't compensate with player movement. 11. Landclaims. I know none of TFP play PVP. We need more than 1 claim. With just 1 claim it is easy to find the center of the claimed area and dig the claim up. Then super easy to take a persons stuff. Good players uses hundreds, if not thousands of claims in their bases, not only for redundancy in case they are dug up, but also for territorial control and expansion. This is a yuuuuuge PVP error on TFP's part. I'll take a break and go to things I do like: -------------------------- 1. I LOVE the new jumping height! Awesome ! Previously you could only attain heights like this by jumping on someones head, and getting a boost! Of course, everyone now will build 2-3 blocks higher, but you still retain this great skill for looting, jumping onto rocks, jumping onto roofs, ect. I think its great. 2. I like the increased/decreased pack amount. I will also couple this with the "death" debuff. When you die you lose stats for a certain amount of time. If you died and you were carrying 32 items you can now only carry (in this case we will say 20) 20 items. I think this is great for looting, great for zombie killing, but I am not sure if this is great for PVP. I am undecided right now. 2.1 I LOVE THAT YOU CAN NEVER GET A BROKEN LEG! (with the right perk) With this same perk, you can now jump off huge towers w/o breaking, you still get fall damage. 3. (this really should be number 1) I can't seem to head glitch and look through terrain anymore, which is GREAT! I attempted many chinese tricks and so far all the old ways appear to be gone. 4. Rocket damage seems to be decreased heavily for blocks. I am not sure how it stacks up against zombies. Against players it has also been decreased. It used to be basically a 1shot direct kill. Its now many more (not sure the exact number). Some will see this as good, some bad. 5. I like that zombies dig now. As I'm sitting here in god mode, zombies are digging straight down and hitting me. For PVP and PVE alike, this is a good change. Most players complain about not being able to find anyone because they lack any basic 7dtd tracking skills. With the new zombie mechanic, it will be pretty easy to find holes around bases, especially when you add in the old side digging mechanic. Personally this has never been a problem, but many others struggle with it. 6. I'm totally digging the big smoke blasts from explosives that obscure vision. 7. VERY much like the new terrain. Dips, divents, valleys, gullies. Its all awesome. 8. The fire bug appears to be gone which is great. (fire bug is where you run through hot coals and your character appears to be on fire for other players for x amount of time, very bad for pvp) Like I said earlier, I've only got 4 hours into this "E" version. I will have much more to add. P.S. Don't listen to Bloom Meister. I don't think he even makes tier 3 for pvp. Bug Edit: Adding "dye" to a weapon appears to increase damage. ??? Bug Edit: Appears that going into third person mode (f5) you have fortnite aiming mode. No recoil at all. (if you have positive accuracy). Apparently you can also shoot around walls in 3rd person view. Edit: Vehicle freelook is gone. Please give us a toggle option. Edit: overall FPS seems to be down. With my 1060 rig I used to get 60 FPS, its now around 45. On my work computer I would be lucky to get 20, I now get under around 5. Not playable at all. This is with minimum settings across the board on both computers. edit: the fact that you can't even swing a pick for minimum damage when you're out of stamina is not great. Even with max miner 69er. Edit: its hard to tell if perks affect zombies and players the same. For instance, the "From the shadows" perk rank 5, lets you do actions while crouched that are completely silent. Is this just for zombies, or players too? edit: just realized vehicles only occupy 1 slot now instead of the previous 8 parts or w/e they were for a minibike. That in itself is totally awesome!! edit: There is something wrong with the vault hatch destroy animation when you try to stack two on top of each other. It goes all accordion on ya. Hatch elevators still exist unfortunately. Ladders are slower to navigate now. Elevator glitching doesn't seem to work anymore for vault hatches (still works for others). edit: dislike that radiation is no longer color coded. Very hard to tell the exact line without getting damaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chill Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 A lot of good points here. The stand-out point for me that I hadn't tested myself prior to this post is that while there is always going to be a late game "best gun" for a given situation in any given FPS, sadly now in this version of this game that will be the AK47 99% or 99.9% of the time. In A16 it used to be the AK47 maybe 80% of the time and the sniper 20% of the time. Seems to be moving away from a good balance where it's situational which gun you would want to have in your hands to fight enemy players. P.S. I trapped bloom in a steel box in A14 when he combat logged on me. It was hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingSlayerGM Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Nice analysis, pvpers appreciate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res1011 Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Hello, Having 6000 hours in this game and owning it since it came out buying it off the original website back in the day. I would say I've played about 50 hours at most of PVE on this game and the other 5950 have been straight PVP. I can promise you over my many hours of PVP, the owners and admins of PVP servers have tracked thousands of players joining per seed, but not many staying and playing for long periods of time. Fixing PVP problems could make this game have thousands of more people playing this game, you could argue there have been more people that have bought this game to try PVP then PVE. The only reason you don't see streamers and or to many videos of it is because everything is focused into PVE. Edem_Alive makes many great points about the new update affecting PVP. Have many other friends that also have thousands of hours on this game that would agree with this as well. Thanks for the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edem_Alive Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 I ran out of room on the first post so this will be a continuation. 1. One thing I learned that I absolutely HATE. When you kill a person their character stands there for 5-10 seconds after death. There used to be a death animation and they would fall down. Hard to tell now if you've killed the person, especially when they are grouped up. A lot of ammo was wasted shooting already dead targets. This needs to change. 2. I found that wood and scrap iron hatch elevators CAN still be glitched. Vault ones don't seem to be able to. 3. This one I think is terrible. It seems player to player sounds have been drastically reduced. DRASTICALLY. In 16 you used to hear a person running from 100m. Last night I was walking through the forest and came over a little rise. I heard no sounds, looked to my right and there is a dude 25m away punching grass and I couldn't hear it. Another example, raiding a base last night, from about 30m away I could not hear my friends hits pinging the landclaim. Couldn't even hear him hitting. This is bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowbudgetname Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Land claim changes also make bases mostly undefendable. Redundant land claims are a must when experienced players can determine locations based on settings, not to even mention how quickly a team would be able to find and destroy a lone claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pApA^LeGBa Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Hello, Having 6000 hours in this game and owning it since it came out buying it off the original website back in the day. I would say I've played about 50 hours at most of PVE on this game and the other 5950 have been straight PVP. I can promise you over my many hours of PVP, the owners and admins of PVP servers have tracked thousands of players joining per seed, but not many staying and playing for long periods of time. Fixing PVP problems could make this game have thousands of more people playing this game, you could argue there have been more people that have bought this game to try PVP then PVE. The only reason you don't see streamers and or to many videos of it is because everything is focused into PVE. Edem_Alive makes many great points about the new update affecting PVP. Have many other friends that also have thousands of hours on this game that would agree with this as well. Thanks for the time Still not gonna happen until the game is finished, i really hope they stay to their word here. Let us for once have a good PvE focused development. There is a ton of good PvP games. There is not so many good coop PvE games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edem_Alive Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 Still not gonna happen until the game is finished, i really hope they stay to their word here. Let us for once have a good PvE focused development. There is a ton of good PvP games. There is not so many good coop PvE games. There aren't any PVP games that compare to this one. Its my favorite game, not for the zombies, but for the players and building. I don't know how anyone can stand just killing zombies all day that would bore me so quick. One of the main reasons people don't like PVP is the fact that they get wrecked so hard. Mostly due to inexperience in building. Game knowledge in PVP is extremely important, which is why you don't see any streams or youtube videos. There are too many secrets that you need to keep to yourself so you don't give away your advantages. Without this knowledge, new PVPers get frustrated pretty quickly when they are taken advantage of. One of the worst things was looking through the terrain, with these bugs hopefully gone, we might start seeing a bigger uptick in PVP. Building an underground bunker that you think is hidden, that gets spotted using bugs and cheats, can be very demoralizing to the inexperienced builder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poojam Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Still not gonna happen until the game is finished, i really hope they stay to their word here. Let us for once have a good PvE focused development. There is a ton of good PvP games. There is not so many good coop PvE games. Please provide some examples of PVP games that have voxel terrain, crafting, base building and raiding. The closest I can think of are ARK, Rust, Dayz, Fornite Battle Royale. None of which have voxel terrain. PVE - All of the Fallout series, Elder Scrolls, Half Life 1 & 2, Skyrim, Terraria, Don't Starve, Long Dark, The Forest, Subnautica. I would argue that there are very few games PVE or PVP that have true voxel terrain that supports multiplayer environments. Dismissing the wants of the PVP playerbase because there are alternatives is not productive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chill Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Let us for once have a good PvE focused development. Dismissing the wants of the PVP playerbase because there are alternatives is not productive. A quick look through my post history will prove, stating verifiable facts here [moderators] that that guy frequently, for years, posts in PVP-related threads the same derailment attempts and "this game should be *all* about PVE type nonsense. No logic. No actual thought involved. No addressing of the actual ideas. No contrary points to any points that were brought up, or even general related feedback. Pure, unadulterated "Reeeeeeeee! Don't talk about PVP in my PVEEEEEEEEE game!" in essence when translated. I've gotten strikes from the moderators for pointing stuff like this out before, from moderators that also do the same thing... but this is another crystal clear, undeniable example. I'll restrain myself from relating this to their intelligence and choice of game mode preference, but hey, conclusions are obvious there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pApA^LeGBa Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 A quick look through my post history will prove, stating verifiable facts here [moderators] that that guy frequently, for years, posts in PVP-related threads the same derailment attempts and "this game should be *all* about PVE type nonsense. No logic. No actual thought involved. No addressing of the actual ideas. No contrary points to any points that were brought up, or even general related feedback. Pure, unadulterated "Reeeeeeeee! Don't talk about PVP in my PVEEEEEEEEE game!" in essence when translated. I've gotten strikes from the moderators for pointing stuff like this out before, from moderators that also do the same thing... but this is another crystal clear, undeniable example. I'll restrain myself from relating this to their intelligence and choice of game mode preference, but hey, conclusions are obvious there. TFP said, PvP will be dealt with. When the game is ready. No need to point anything out in detail. Especially as i don´t play PvP, way too much griefers, and have no clue, i really shouldn´t make suggestions for a PvP mode. Balancing the game for PvP now would mess up both. PvE and PvP. You gotta live with the fact that nothing in this game is designed for PvP. Bad idea to mix up things now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7daysguy Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Still not gonna happen until the game is finished, i really hope they stay to their word here. Let us for once have a good PvE focused development. There is a ton of good PvP games. There is not so many good coop PvE games. Empyrion, Space Engineers, Conan, Ark, Astroneer, Stationeers, The Forest, Don't Starve Together... Not enough for you? It doesn't matter how many other games exist, it's arrogant to suggest people should simply play another game. The only survival game balanced for PvP that doesn't have a good PvE experience is Rust, and that's because they haven't bothered to add any substantial PvE content. It's much easier to balance a game for PvE than PvP, weapon stats can be all over the place any no one will care. People will choose inferior weapons for "style" in PvE. PvP balance does not cripple PvE gameplay, the effect of PvE is additive to PvP, meaning it enhances the PvP experience as well. The Only possible criticism is that PvP development steals time and resources from the base PvE game. That's true, but balancing content for PvP does not ruin PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pApA^LeGBa Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Less people to work on PvE will have a negative effect on it. Just look how ling this alpha took. This is still a indie title. And even if they are pretty big for a indie dev they are far away from beeing a AAA dev, that can just hire a few more people if needed. If they start it now, both sides won´t be happy, you can´t just balance it so PvP get´s good, it needs a seperate game mode. But hey, if you prefer less quality over waiting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7daysguy Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Please provide some examples of PVP games that have voxel terrain, crafting, base building and raiding. The closest I can think of are ARK, Rust, Dayz, Fornite Battle Royale. None of which have voxel terrain. Yes, the voxels really make it. Shame TFP has been considering ditching voxel terrain for their next big title. I would be doubling down hard on voxels if I was in their position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damocles Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Vehicles cant be really that fast. At one point the game would have trouble updating the world in time. So there must be some limit to their speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edem_Alive Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 Vehicles cant be really that fast. At one point the game would have trouble updating the world in time. So there must be some limit to their speed. I'd say right now it feels like having an orange engine in it compared to a purple on 16.4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Heya. Just want to post a few corrections and things I know that can help with some of your complaints. Great post by the way. 1: All the MM hype about not being able to max all skills. I was able to max everything with 21 points left over..... Madmole still feels that way as does Gazz. If it was solely up to them there would not be enough points to get everything and it very well still may end up that way in the end. But they were willing to experiment and see how it would pan out during A17. You probably just missed the posts that announced that they were going to try raising the level cap enough to be able to get everything and see how they felt about it. 2. Mining. All skills maxed with a purple auger and it takes 3 hits to break a block of sand that used to take 1 hit. Obviously its good for people defending their base and bad for people attacking a base, especially when you put a 21x modifier on it. Terrible for raiding. It takes 14 hits to break an unclaimed stone block. I notice that there are 4 modifier slots on the auger, but there doesn't seem to be anything to go in the slots..? Maybe I missed something? Mods are not complete yet. They will be adding more. If they plan to add mods that increase block damage they can’t very well allow one shotting blocks with less than max augments. Bug Edit: Adding "dye" to a weapon appears to increase damage. ??? All mods give a slight damage increase. Jury is still out on whether they will remove that for the dyes. They discussed it but didn’t have time. They’ll decide after letting it play out. Edit: Vehicle freelook is gone. Please give us a toggle option. I think you hold the shift button down or maybe one of the mouse buttons and while doing that the mouse switches to freelook and controls go to WASD. dislike that radiation is no longer color coded. Very hard to tell the exact line without getting damaged. WIP. Not the intended result as far as I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedge Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 There aren't any PVP games that compare to this one. Its my favorite game, not for the zombies, but for the players and building. I don't know how anyone can stand just killing zombies all day that would bore me so quick. One of the main reasons people don't like PVP is the fact that they get wrecked so hard. Mostly due to inexperience in building. Game knowledge in PVP is extremely important, which is why you don't see any streams or youtube videos. There are too many secrets that you need to keep to yourself so you don't give away your advantages. Without this knowledge, new PVPers get frustrated pretty quickly when they are taken advantage of. One of the worst things was looking through the terrain, with these bugs hopefully gone, we might start seeing a bigger uptick in PVP. Building an underground bunker that you think is hidden, that gets spotted using bugs and cheats, can be very demoralizing to the inexperienced builder. Totally with you. Been saying this for a very long time. Simple fact is.... there is no love for the pvp community in 7 days to die. Period, end of story. Just look at this mess of A17. It's like pvp players got kicked while down and hard. Boot to the teeth. Everyone in pvp knows it and has for a long time. Devs will ignore, moderators will deflect and pve players will talk smack. All it will ever be. 24 max players???? Way to go! Haven't had time to test the ground glitch because I'm too busy trying to get the game to run smooth. Went from 125 fps to barely 60 now. Not even going to go into all the issues we are finding on the server because bug reports are already being submitted by admin. Pimps know what's up. Question is.... what will they do about it and how long will it take? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edem_Alive Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 Hey thanks for the replies Roland. I will check the vehicle thing out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edem_Alive Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 A friend and I joined a PVP server last night for what turned out to be a lot of fun. We found three lvl 10-20's in their "base" of wood. We ended up killing two and getting in their base cuz they died with the door open. A few minutes later the third showed up and sniped us. We died twice more with fresh guns and then a long 3 hour battle ensued. It was actually really fun compared to old fights. I landed multiple shots to the body with a lvl 2 sniper and they were not insta kills. Head shots, at such low armor levels, were insta kills. The SMG feels nice to shoot, fairly accurate, but not much damage. The pistol seems to be pretty good. Shotgun is trash. I was standing at the door and they opened it (they kept opening to shoot us) and full blasted a guy and he didn't die. At some point during the fight we had a few swarms of vultures appear and kill us repeatedly while we were assaulting the base. This was ******* stupid. Vultures are terrible, and super OP against noobs. The fight was going poorly as we were almost out of ammo, when lo and behold! Three airdrops. With 2 medkits to heal back up, a new SMG, AK, and Sniper w/ plenty of ammo, the tide was turned for us. We succeeded in breaking in through the top and my friend shot them in the back while I aggro'ed the front door. All in all I had 23 kills, he had 20, and we died 2-3 times each. Keep in mind we had no meds or food for these fights so it was easy to whittle down health. Not sure how fun it would be if we were all maxed with medkits. I do know that this early game PVP experience was super fun. This fight lasted about 3 hours. One thing I learned that I absolutely HATE. When you kill a person their character stands there for 5-10 seconds after death. There used to be a death animation and they would fall down. Hard to tell now if you've killed the person, especially when they are grouped up. A lot of ammo was wasted shooting already dead targets. This needs to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edem_Alive Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 This one I think is terrible. It seems player to player sounds have been drastically reduced. DRASTICALLY. In 16 you used to hear a person running from 100m. Last night I was walking through the forest and came over a little rise. I heard no sounds, looked to my right and there is a dude 25m away punching grass and I couldn't hear it. Another example, raiding a base last night, from about 30m away I could not hear my friends hits pinging the landclaim. Couldn't even hear him hitting. This is bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edem_Alive Posted December 2, 2018 Author Share Posted December 2, 2018 bumping as these points are still very relevant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edem_Alive Posted December 2, 2018 Author Share Posted December 2, 2018 Actually, reading through other threads, I saw this little nugget in one of them "This base lasted aprox 2 minutes 8 seconds. And no im not exaggerating. The zombies shrugged off a hail of turret bullets, came out unfazed from the electric fence and broke the fence inside of 5 seconds and pwnd the wood spikes like they were made of butter. Then came the vault door, ya know the strongest door in the game. They knocked their way through every single one and several walls in no time at all, overran the base, several of them just up and walked up a four block high concrete wall....somehow... and then death...good times. " For you Fun Pimps, you may not be aware, but a great pvp strat for breaking into a base, is to get on top of it during horde night. If they really do break in this easy now, raiding cheese is going to spread so thin that I'll only have crackers in a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edem_Alive Posted December 24, 2018 Author Share Posted December 24, 2018 bump: still relevant even with 17 stable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCrook1028 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 bump: still relevant even with 17 stable Lemme fix that for ya: "Still not relevant until the Devs decide to work on PvP which is after and only after Primary goal of a PvE game is complete." There, all better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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