LuckyStar Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Yup that's a thing. It's in the patch notes. If you thought you were going to avoid the hordes with your Gyro.... hehe! Holy crap I can't imagine day 70 Hordes now! - Spiders that are faster and can climb walls [even if you have a ledge]. - Zombies that can jump gaps! - Vultures that have way better AI and can puke! - Digging zombies! - New AI all around with breadcrumb system! [Aptly named since we're going to be dinner a lot!] WOOOOO!!!!!! There's probably more. This is going to be hard but I CAN'T WAIT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Oh gawd... really? Well, I am happy that the game makes flying a gyro dangerous, but... really? Perhaps it's just a placeholder until they think and have time to implement something better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielspoa Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 I love the idea! Cannot wait to test it, hope it works well. The more threats the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SickPuppy Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Just been watching Kumquats stream day 28 horde night with Twigg, zombies teared his base down, whole building literally collapsed all loot gone, workbench, everything. Haven't seen the puking vultures but man all these new challenges to deal with is gonna be awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted November 18, 2018 Author Share Posted November 18, 2018 Oh gawd... really? Well, I am happy that the game makes flying a gyro dangerous, but... really? Perhaps it's just a placeholder until they think and have time to implement something better. Why? What's wrong with it? I think radiated vultures are brilliant. Since we don't have to worry about realism... you know... cuz zombies don't actually exist, I think they're great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morloc Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Why? What's wrong with it? I think radiated vultures are brilliant. Since we don't have to worry about realism... you know... cuz zombies don't actually exist, I think they're great! LOL! Well, it beats the original choice of Irradiated Flying Cops (that puke). -Morloc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giltirn Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Just been watching Kumquats stream day 28 horde night with Twigg, zombies teared his base down, whole building literally collapsed all loot gone, workbench, everything. Haven't seen the puking vultures but man all these new challenges to deal with is gonna be awesome. Lol, for me that's a rage-quit uninstall moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 LOL! Well, it beats the original choice of Irradiated Flying Cops (that puke). -Morloc Got to give it that! Why? What's wrong with it? I think radiated vultures are brilliant. Since we don't have to worry about realism... you know... cuz zombies don't actually exist, I think they're great! I've replied like 999 times to that... you asked for this Developers often talk about realism for various game aspects - why do you think that is, since the vast majority of games contain fantasy content? "Realism" in video games is not about the game being realistic to RL, it's about the game being realistic to its own universe/lore/theme/setting. For example - the game takes place on an earth-like place with physics, rules and entities which obey to these rules etc, and beyond that point the level of realism can differ according to gameplay needs/limitations, like - the player also has human-like needs etc. For example a gigantic, incorporeal, black hole-farting unicorn is unrealistic for this universe. An acid-vomiting vulture doesn't go that far, but is still something gimmicky that barely fits that universe. You can say "but TFP decide what the universe will look like", so they might as well add that unicorn or add random fantasy enemies/magic spells etc irrelevant to the setting. They sure can, but a well-structured setting is valuable to any form of art (even abstract art has a framework), movies, games, you name it. Creating a theme is not that simple. You can say that the giant hornet worked in Fallout - why would they replace it with vultures here? Besides its annoying buzz, the Fallout universe is a well-constructed one, with a variety of mutated animals/plants and environmental/lore/visual clues that make giant hornets believable and realistic to that setting. In 7DTD it just didn't fit. Vultures "made more sense" than giant hornets/were more realistic to this universe. Small birds throwing acid projectiles not so much. One might even say that it scratches the realm of "magic". Let me give you an example - why are cops bloated? By being bloated, the player gets an involuntary cue that they are bloated with something. And creators tend to design creatures in accordance with what they do, sometimes even involuntarily! These are essentially, subtle, low level attempts at realism. Surely, because gameplay takes precedence over realism, they are better than nothing at the moment. But realism and good gameplay are not mutually exclusive. Realism, besides making the universe more believable (immersion), it can offer much to gameplay, which already happens with human needs, diseases, injuries, crafting, vehicles, pretty much most things in this game. Even the new inventory/"weight" system is a realism attempt for a more engaging gameplay experience, but obviously, a perfectly realistic weight system would harm gameplay instead. Not having a gyro threat would also harm gameplay, so a solution is needed. But it might as well be something more realistic, which is a win-win. At any case this might just be a placeholder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Nice Cup of Tea Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Those of you complaining that vultures vomiting acid at you is "unrealistic" are aware that real vultures do exactly that as a defensive mechanism when threatened, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doombringer101 Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Those of you complaining that vultures vomiting acid at you is "unrealistic" are aware that real vultures do exactly that as a defensive mechanism when threatened, don't you? I was going to point this out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 Those of you complaining that vultures vomiting acid at you is "unrealistic" are aware that real vultures do exactly that as a defensive mechanism when threatened, don't you? Vultures vomiting a few grams of stomach acid to vultures acting as aircraft snipers is quite a leap. Like I said above, mutated superpower animals don't really belong in the current setting. And as I was always saying the same goes for the bloated cops, because that green magic missile projectile hardly resembles vomiting or propelled liquid in general. I would love a realistic vomiting attack but this is more or a generic ranged attack for the sake of having a ranged enemy in the game. The only difference with vultures is that in the case of bloated, with an emphasis on bloated, cops, it is less absurd for them to have the physical capability/capacity to keep sniping you with liquid. Hopefully, with the AI being improved there will be less of a need to use such gimmicks in order to threaten players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted November 19, 2018 Author Share Posted November 19, 2018 Those of you complaining that vultures vomiting acid at you is "unrealistic" are aware that real vultures do exactly that as a defensive mechanism when threatened, don't you? Are you serious? Hahahahaha. What was that you were saying RIP? No, no.... go on.... I'm listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 Got to give it that! I've replied like 999 times to that... you asked for this Developers often talk about realism for various game aspects - why do you think that is, since the vast majority of games contain fantasy content? "Realism" in video games is not about the game being realistic to RL, it's about the game being realistic to its own universe/lore/theme/setting. For example - the game takes place on an earth-like place with physics, rules and entities which obey to these rules etc, and beyond that point the level of realism can differ according to gameplay needs/limitations, like - the player also has human-like needs etc. For example a gigantic, incorporeal, black hole-farting unicorn is unrealistic for this universe. /snip for length..... Well, RestinPieces, I have to say, while I don't agree with everything you say, and perhaps not even everything in the post I've semi-quoted, it was a VERY well written logical post on your take of realism and game play in games. I think as 7DaysToDie evolves, and BOY has it come a long way since A1 (and A17 is a total game changer again!), there's always going to be elements of the game that evolve in a way that some segment of the playerbase doesn't like. I even include myself in that - indeed, my most recent game of 7DTD wasn't an A16 game, but an A10.4 game, which in some respects remains my favourite "version" of the game. What I hope TFP keep firmly in mind as more "unusual" shall we say mechanics go into the game, is allowing for an easy way for the player to mod them back out, if the particular mechanic doesn't appeal to them. While this can be problematic for multi-player servers (though an ability for server owners to describe more fully the mods they've made would help), for SP the ultimate king of any game, even over game play or realism should be the the player themselves. The moddability of 7dtd has always been, imho, it's best attribute, and hopefully that moddability will extend to all the games mechanics, allowing a single player to tailor, even its core mechanics, into something that fits that players preferences as closely as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted November 19, 2018 Author Share Posted November 19, 2018 The moddability of 7dtd has always been, imho, it's best attribute, and hopefully that moddability will extend to all the games mechanics, allowing a single player to tailor, even its core mechanics, into something that fits that players preferences as closely as possible. 100% agree with this. My A16.4 is modded everywhere! It looks and plays nothing like Vanilla. I imagine there's a lot of players like that. I wonder who's in that majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 What was that you were saying RIP? No, no.... go on.... I'm listening. Already replied, didn't you read my posts above? What's next? Carpet bombing pooping pigeons? Radioactive AOE peeing dogs? Concussion inducing farting snakes? Bring it on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEADication Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 The moddability of 7dtd has always been, imho, it's best attribute, and hopefully that moddability will extend to all the games mechanics, allowing a single player to tailor, even its core mechanics, into something that fits that players preferences as closely as possible. Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 Well, RestinPieces, I have to say, while I don't agree with everything you say, and perhaps not even everything in the post I've semi-quoted, it was a VERY well written logical post on your take of realism and game play in games. Well the whole vulture discussion about whether they fit into the theme, much like hornets, obviously expresses my personal opinion. However, I am very pedantic about definitions, so allow me to say that the way realism is used in most aspects of video games is irrelevant to my opinion. When using the term "realistic" (which many known devs use, spare me from trying to find random interviews, it's 4.30 am here) in fantasy games, they are trying to convey a specific message. They do not use the term to just fruitlessly contradict themselves. They use realism as a measure of believability in the game itself. Even if that game is a pure fantasy game like Kingdom Hearts or Binding of Isaac etc. I think as 7DaysToDie evolves, and BOY has it come a long way since A1 (and A17 is a total game changer again!), there's always going to be elements of the game that evolve in a way that some segment of the playerbase doesn't like. Sure it does and I am pretty excited about A17. But I do enjoy discussing and saying my piece about how it evolves. Said the same things when the hornets were introduced into the game. Time will show how players in general will receive them. What I hope TFP keep firmly in mind as more "unusual" shall we say mechanics go into the game, is allowing for an easy way for the player to mod them back out The mod card? I wish it were that simple, especially when it comes to enemies. When a game is already balanced around the existing mechanics, removing them will be problematic. For example, if the game exclusively uses ranged attacks to threaten the player in certain situations, removing them will change the experience. And as I said earlier, vulture snipers are better than nothing if they are the only way to threaten the player sufficiently in some situations like when flying the gyro. I just think they can do better than that, when it comes to intuitive player threats. AI improvements are a great example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted November 19, 2018 Author Share Posted November 19, 2018 RIP, couldn't we just consider Vultures a "plot device"? [HollyWood has been getting away with that for over 50 years.] Yup that's my new go to for you and Vik. Post: "Something something... realism..... immersion... rabble rabble rabble!!!" Respose: "Plot device." [drops mic] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 RIP, couldn't we just consider Vultures a "plot device"? [HollyWood has been getting away with that for over 50 years.] Yup that's my new go to for you and Vik. Post: "Something something... realism..... immersion... rabble rabble rabble!!!" I am a hipster, I don't need your Hollywood decadence! But seriously, is that what you are getting from my posts...? Sigh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted November 19, 2018 Author Share Posted November 19, 2018 I am a hipster, I don't need your Hollywood decadence! But seriously, is that what you are getting from my posts...? Sigh... Nah just having some fun. A17 is less than 24 hours away. Getting excited! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 Well the whole vulture discussion about whether they fit into the theme, much like hornets, obviously expresses my personal opinion. However, I am very pedantic about definitions, so allow me to say that the way realism is used in most aspects of video games is irrelevant to my opinion. When using the term "realistic" (which many known devs use, spare me from trying to find random interviews, it's 4.30 am here) in fantasy games, they are trying to convey a specific message. They do not use the term to just fruitlessly contradict themselves. They use realism as a measure of believability in the game itself. Even if that game is a pure fantasy game like Kingdom Hearts or Binding of Isaac etc. Well, I've always railed against the idea of "realism" in a game, especially if it came at the sacrifice of "gameplay", but I'm all for self-consistency in game, by which mechanics that challenge/incentivize or otherwise drive player behaviour make sense within the games established theme. That's why I'm (personally) against the idea of the gyrocopter magically (somehow!) not working during Horde nights for example. To my thinking, if a player decides to skip the Horde, so be it, it's no skin off my nose if they do. Now perhaps I can say that more easily than some because, nowadays, I only play in SP, so it really REALLY doesn't affect me what anyone else does. I must admit, I'm not a big fan of ranged attack zombies, because I don't (personally) think they fit the idea of the game, at least as I (perhaps inaccurately) envision it, or at least as I'd like it to be - namely, that I'm trying to find ways to cope with a HUGE number of "dumb but dangerous" zombies. So, puking feral vultures probably won't be top of my list of favourite features of the game, but if they go in, I'll deal with them, or if I end up REALLY hating them, mod them out, assuming I can. And that's where modding just HAS to come into it RestInPieces, you might think that's a "soft option" or a bit of a "cop out", but the Devs can really ONLY make a base game that they believe is the best of competing mechanics, and leave it to players to tailor it as much as they can or they like to suit their own individualistic preferences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted November 19, 2018 Author Share Posted November 19, 2018 That's why I'm (personally) against the idea of the gyrocopter magically (somehow!) not working during Horde nights Doesn't have to be "magic". Could just be windy! Maybe you can't fly a Gyro in the wind. Even Military grade drones can't fly in crappy weather. [Although basic research will show that Gyros are actually pretty good in the wind] https://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=44066 Maybe it's REALLY windy... and stuff..... Agree with the rest of your post, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 Lucky, Why tie the wind conditions to the Horde night though? I actually do like the idea of strong winds preventing the Gyrocopter from working, or making it riskier to use if you ignore those conditions, but then to me, that should be a random condition, with a potential to strike (or not stirke) at any time. It then becomes an inherent risk in using the Gyrocopter, not "merely" a "gimmick" to stop a player from using it on Horde nights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted November 19, 2018 Author Share Posted November 19, 2018 Lucky, Why tie the wind conditions to the Horde night though? I actually do like the idea of strong winds preventing the Gyrocopter from working, or making it riskier to use if you ignore those conditions, but then to me, that should be a random condition, with a potential to strike (or not stirke) at any time. It then becomes an inherent risk in using the Gyrocopter, not "merely" a "gimmick" to stop a player from using it on Horde nights. I suppose you have a point. It might be a little gimmicky but.... [trying to think of something here] I have to wonder if Gyros were a good idea in the first place. I guess that's the most honest thing I can say. Don't get me wrong, I think they are great! I just don't see how people won't use them to avoid the hordes. Fly for a bit, land on a roof, refuel, fly some more... repeat! I guess if that's what people want then so be it. Game the way you want. Of course, we are assuming a lot here. - How high do they fly? - How fast are they? - Are vultures faster? - How well does the vulture [especially puking ones] target the Gyro? I guess until we give it a try we won't really know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 I suppose you have a point. It might be a little gimmicky but.... [trying to think of something here] I have to wonder if Gyros were a good idea in the first place. I guess that's the most honest thing I can say. Don't get me wrong, I think they are great! I just don't see how people won't use them to avoid the hordes. Well, to me they are all up side no down side. But then, that's my very individualistic view of the game. If I someday feel like using one to avoid a 7 day Horde, I'm going to do exactly that and feel 100% comfortable with it. If other players choose to use them to avoid the horde, once, sometimes or every single time, it's not going to make the slightest difference to me. So, I guess the only point where I disagree with you, is the potential downside of some other player using them to circumvent a game mechanic. 'Cause that just doesn't make my socks roll up and down is all. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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