Royal Deluxe Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 If the results are indistinguishable or nearly so from what you'd experience if they spawned farther away, what's the difference? Spawn outside my defenses and inside my defense Btw we allready have a situation many players dont like (ninjaspawn) only reason we have not the ♥♥♥♥storm of the century is that we are in Early access and its common meaning that its a temporal issue. No way to defend = no fun Btw would lead only to this bases deep enough that Digger fall into death. That 3 weeks of real life spend by only Digging would be atracting for most players is maybe a risqué assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Not sure if you're serious... Caves, like other underground habitats, can easily be made completely safe. That's only what we've been talking about all week! Cave = only one way out (with maybe sleepers that close the entrance behind you) Means i dont go in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graphite Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Spawn outside my defenses and inside my defense No way to defend = no fun I suppose you would have to make your walls out of the strongest material you can and not have storage on the walls. Thus you will hear the zombies trying to break in and even if they do they wont trash your goods ... well at least not straight away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menace312 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I don't know if it's because of my frantic and nervous play style or just luck, but I've never had a z spawn on top of me... I've tried entering a building and while initially looking around there are no or few sleepers. Then loot 1 thing and then when looking around (franticly) the sleepers have spawned or moved even. Doesn't happen often, but does happen (I'm on A16.3). It's very annoying, especially when entering a small shed/room with no sleeper, and then the sleeper spawns while your looting... But it's not impossible to play with... Especially since you know this will happen, and that you can easily club that squishy z head. It's just annoying right now is all, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I suppose you would have to make your walls out of the strongest material you can and not have storage on the walls. Thus you will hear the zombies trying to break in and even if they do they wont trash your goods ... well at least not straight away. I have 4 Layers of steel. And how can i defend a Zombie on the other side ? And yes 100% of all bases i know have partially a layer with Crates at the walls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 It's just annoying right now is all, right? Depends, imagine you play Death is Death You are Lvl 140, go to loot a POI There is a 3 Block high Brick wall (Parking place poi) You have cleaned the poi You wrench a car, 3 meters behind you a Corner 100% clean Bنm you are death thanks to ninja spawn in that Corner Start again And no thats no imagination, thats happend really to me. If the game would be not EA i would have stopped playing. ohh i have stopped playing, instead i work on prefabs and my mod since weeks. (and wait for the fix) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graphite Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I have 4 Layers of steel. And how can i defend a Zombie on the otehr side ? And yes 100% of all bases i know have partially a layer with Crates at the walls Good point i suppose you would need to make your solid bunker to have arrow slits and then defending against zombies is a case of enough arrow slits and hope the zombies dig the path in front of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 This finally makes only the walls thicker 2x Steel 2x Air 2x Steel Or better said 2 x Concrete 2 Air 3x Steel Because you cant repair the outside of 2xSteel without waiting the dry stage of each layer twice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graphite Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 This finally makes only the walls thicker 2x Steel 2x Air 2x Steel Or better said 2 x Concrete 2 Air 3x Steel Because you cant repair the outside of 2xSteel without waiting the dry stage of each layer twice But you can counter but it will take time, materials and planning. The question is how tedious is it and how balanced is it. Problem is that is that is the stage you need to playtest to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pille Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Spawn outside my defenses and inside my defense Btw we allready have a situation many players dont like (ninjaspawn) only reason we have not the ♥♥♥♥storm of the century is that we are in Early access and its common meaning that its a temporal issue. Yep, the zeds could spawn inside your base (if I've understand Crater Creator's Diagram correctly)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 The most people build underground because they dont like to play architect. Making the underground more interesting is one aim and ok for me. But make it anoying like the surface (for players that dont want to play as architects) is in my opinion to much. As you can see on my Screenshots i dont fear to build big. But many players want to play more a shooter than a Building game. And even i doesnt like the idea of undefeatable Zombies in the rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doombringer101 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Yep, the zeds could spawn inside your base (if I've understand Crater Creator's Diagram correctly)... Haha the player is jumping for joy as his new zombie friend spawns in I like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graphite Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Yep, the zeds could spawn inside your base (if I've understand Crater Creator's Diagram correctly)... I dont really know much about raycasting but i am guessing CC was suggesting that the ray detected the first player block it came in contact with when drawing a direct line to the player. Which in the case you have above is a wall block. I do not know how complicated of ray trace is needed to make this accurate and intelligent enough to suit without costing too much resource. But i think that will be the deciding factor that would decide if it will work or not and not that the system would not work. Edit No your right i was reading player and zombie the other way round I suppose a min distance would help prevent this but is a quick hack fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crater Creator Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 snip I'm not interested in keeping the player from winning. What I am most interested in is making the game engaging, challenging, and balanced in all situations. That's the game I want to play. You don't have to agree, but I hope you can see there are still parts of the game that aren't that way. So I advocate for changes I think will move the game in that direction, because I think the game is incomplete otherwise. You insist players will come up with a solution to every problem. I maintain they only come up with solutions to problems the designers want to be solvable. Yes it's a sandbox game that gives the player enormous freedom... but I hope you don't think it never occurred to TFP that you can put a lip around your roof to deter spider zombies. They didn't release that feature, then watch some Let's Play videos and say "Darn! That didn't work. We'll get those crafty players in one of these Alphas!" It worked just fine, because getting the player is not the ultimate goal. Sorry I disagree my point I think was spot on. The difference between carrying 30k stone in your backpack and magically spawned zs right in front of you are so far apart it's not funny. Put 2 games out 1 game has magical spawned zs and only able to carry 3 things no blocks against a game that has zs that spawn appropriately and the ability to carry stuff and build bases and giving an appropriate amount of resource carry is going to way out sell the first game hands down. You're continuing to conflate two separate issues: your original assertion about whether a feature in a game is magical, and this second argument about whether it hurts or helps sales. Everyone is complaining bout the zs spawning on top of us. Spawning suddenly etc yet the digging z is exactly the same. By aforementioned opinions of it being spawned next to where you are.. I endeavor to demonstrate a dig-and-backfill zombie spawning close-ish to you is indistinguishable from one that spawns farther away. Stay tuned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pille Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 @graphite Maybe my diagram is not very intuitive but there's no (player-made) wall block. There's only one player-made block (small forge symbol).^^ Edit No your right i was reading player and zombie the other way round I suppose a min distance would help prevent this but is a quick hack fix. Alright. @Doombringer101 Seriously, what's wrong with you. Zombie aren't your friends. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stallionsden Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 @Stallionsden So your point is dont add underground non colliding zombies that you cant see but can hear because there magical. Also digging zombies are a waste of time because the player will counter. Sounds a bit like warding off evil spirits and be scared of the bogey man but that may be a bit unfair and i have misunderstood your points. So to summarise you dont mind underground digging zombies just make sure that there not non collidable and they can be made a difficult opponent as long as there not in the realms of magical superpowers. Not what I am saying at all lol. Don't have a z spawn next to you lol. You shouldn't be on negative level 12 of your base and next minute a knock knock is on the other side of the wall due to it spawning there apparently which it got there thru digging but there is no hole to show for it. But i hate holes everywhere and this would ping me off to lol. I not scared of anything other then my kids not having what they need or me failing them. Zs don't bother me nor do they worry me and I always counter them with no issues. And regardless how big the issue is made there is always a way to counter them. I suggested a invisible z. One that Will show itself occasionally but not for long and you have to search. Drop everything your doing and hunt it as it will purely destroy your base only or the poi your in. Like a experiment the govt did to Try to kill the z apoc with a cure but failed and produced this beast. Now that be difficult to counter but still it can be. One just needs to use the game to the player's advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doombringer101 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 @graphite Maybe my diagram is not very intuitive but there's no (player-made) wall block. There's only one player-made block.^^ @Doombringer101 Seriously, what's wrong with you. Zombie aren't your friends. lol The little player guy just looked too happy for me not to comment but he could also be jumping in fright. We need speech bubbles next time I could see one with 'Yay!' just as easily as 'Eek!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stallionsden Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I'm not interested in keeping the player from winning. What I am most interested in is making the game engaging, challenging, and balanced in all situations. That's the game I want to play. You don't have to agree, but I hope you can see there are still parts of the game that aren't that way. So I advocate for changes I think will move the game in that direction, because I think the game is incomplete otherwise. You insist players will come up with a solution to every problem. I maintain they only come up with solutions to problems the designers want to be solvable. Yes it's a sandbox game that gives the player enormous freedom... but I hope you don't think it never occurred to TFP that you can put a lip around your roof to deter spider zombies. They didn't release that feature, then watch some Let's Play videos and say "Darn! That didn't work. We'll get those crafty players in one of these Alphas!" It worked just fine, because getting the player is not the ultimate goal. You're continuing to conflate two separate issues: your original assertion about whether a feature in a game is magical, and this second argument about whether it hurts or helps sales. I endeavor to demonstrate a dig-and-backfill zombie spawning close-ish to you is indistinguishable from one that spawns farther away. Stay tuned. I just dont think a digging z or magical digging z is that answer. Besides MM not liking holes everywhere due to a digging z also in which he stated in one of his videos. There are lots of other ideas that are better. In every movie the zs become a non threat so to speak. Human race always wins. The game needs challenges for sure but digging z isn't it. You might get 2 min of enjoyment challenge but after that hmmm back to not being challenged again. Why. Not because tfp failed. But because the gamer smarted the game. Countered and neutralised all threats. Again it don't matter if TFP add in the most challenging z ever. It will always be other players (PvP which I hate) That you can never counter for because that is the difference between alive and dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Finally we reached Maybe that what we should discuss are ways to offer challenges that can be given by Raiders and Z´s Additional reasons to leave a safe base And not Steelsmelting, Teleporting, Ninjadigging whatever. (Think the definition of a Zombie we left somewhere) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graphite Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Still cant think of a system and ruleset of SI for calculating top down when only having mass and stabilty glue to work with. Anyone got any ideas ? Regarding other ways to make it difficult i suggest smoke. Everyone loves smoke and fog so smoke bombs from bandits and smoker whiteout zombies that explode into plumes of smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menace312 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Depends, imagine you play Death is Death You are Lvl 140, go to loot a POI There is a 3 Block high Brick wall (Parking place poi) You have cleaned the poi You wrench a car, 3 meters behind you a Corner 100% clean Bنm you are death thanks to ninja spawn in that Corner Start again And no thats no imagination, thats happend really to me. If the game would be not EA i would have stopped playing. ohh i have stopped playing, instead i work on prefabs and my mod since weeks. (and wait for the fix) So it ultimately comes down to playstyle... As always... I like to stay safe, so I build bases... Whenever I go out I'm nervous and cautious, so maybe that's why this is less of a problem for me... I don't wanna sound like an old record, but it's a bit much to expect the game to be ready for dead is dead. Glitches and landscape generation errors can also kill you unfairly. In those instances you'd respawn for the reason of: It's unfair... Ok, it can be difficult to determine whether a sleeper kill is real (you just didn't look hard enough) or unfair. I get that... And it can take away the fun... At least POI design is fun too Edit: What's this MOD your doing? Any hints your willing to dish out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pille Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 The little player guy just looked too happy for me not to comment but he could also be jumping in fright. We need speech bubbles next time I could see one with 'Yay!' just as easily as 'Eek!' Lol, no. He or she is very sad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crater Creator Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Thanks. The situation showed in the upper right diagram shouldn't happen imo. Looks like a teleporting zombie to me. Looks like a teleporting zombie if you see it teleport. Let's compare this with the alternative of spawning the 'usual' distance away. Note that the result is the same. If you can get the same results with less simulation to process, why wouldn't you? Just to spite your CPU? Btw. you have to add checks for motion sensor and other electricity stuff (wouldn't be easy, I guess)... These would be part of the 'can the zombie be seen spawning' and 'can the zombie be heard spawning' checks. Motion sensors count as observers. You should have to do this check no matter where a zombie spawns, since anywhere you pick could potentially be in view of a motion sensor. Very nice diagrams btw. How did you make them? Thanks. You're not the first to ask, actually. It's an OpenOffice spreadsheet with the cell heights and widths set to a quarter inch and using the background color to represent the different materials. I use the same method when designing actual bases I plan to construct in game. The animation is a series of screenshots sequenced in Photoshop (an old school, labor intensive approach I'm afraid). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doombringer101 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Lol, no. He is very sad: Hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 So it ultimately comes down to playstyle... As always... ... I don't wanna sound like an old record, but it's a bit much to expect the game to be ready for dead is dead. Glitches and landscape generation errors can also kill you unfairly. Thats why i said "If the game would be not EA" In the final game there is no place for Ninjaspawn in a corner you checked a few seconds before. This is completly gamebreaking like the Dupe Bugs are gamebreaking for PVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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