[WIP] True Survival SDX

[xyth]

WOW. lol. All this frustration. You all do realize that Madmole has said this feature is coming to the vanilla game, maybe even in A16. There is no logical lagetamet reason for a player to be able to jump in the air and build beneath their feet. That's just ridiculous and to argue to have it brought back is even more ridiculous. And yes a player can still build 2 towers and walk back and forth to get up to high places. But that is not building beneath your feet while you float in the air and takes more resources and time to build. Jeo went and made an exception for when the player was swimming so that this would not effect players trying to build underwater. We will simple ask Jeo to see if he can add another exception to check to see if the player is on a ladder, problem solved. Lets please try and stay calm and rational and not lose our heads every time an exploit is removed from the game.(I even had players message me and demand the Raiders XP be raised back up so the could usre them to power level)

 

I must admit I was surprised how some folks pointed out a bug involving ladders and then wanted to throw out the whole nerdpole fix rather than just fixing the code as it relates to ladders. Most folks would admit a nerdpole is not a feature, its an exploit of the game mechanics. Admins who need to fix bases can use god mode to fly and hover as much as they want. Players can use 2x blocks to elevate where ladders wont work.

[Gamida]

1st. I know I don't have a dog in this fight anymore as I don't play TS now, but I did. This did remind me of this discussion somehow/

2nd. I know it is slower and she has them handed to her, but in all fairness she could be in serious danger if she falls (ie no respawn) and she can't carry a ton of them like we can in game and I don't see them ever changing that.

 

[video=youtube_share;UR6n_vaCZys]https://youtu.be/UR6n_vaCZys

[Spider]

If you use a vanilla .dll file the mod will probably not load at all and just spawm errors. Jeo will see this and look into it as soon as he can. Until then craft some frames and keep you feet on the ground. Good news though because of this fix i can go back and undo all the workarounds to stop nerd poling early. Like make Hay bales pick up able again and a few other blocks.

[MadDogBrian]

Zombies not Attacking?

We installed this on our server and everything runs good except the npc's will not hurt the zombies (they do attack them just no damage) and you can walk up to a zombie and they will chase you but not hit you. Everything else works, you take damage from falling, hitting things, and hunger and thurst. You can also attack the npc's and the same they will not fight back. Still a very fun mod and hope to be able to play it.

[xyth]

Zombies not Attacking?

We installed this on our server and everything runs good except the npc's will not hurt the zombies (they do attack them just no damage) and you can walk up to a zombie and they will chase you but not hit you. Everything else works, you take damage from falling, hitting things, and hunger and thurst. You can also attack the npc's and the same they will not fight back. Still a very fun mod and hope to be able to play it.

 

Just tested, zombies were chasing and attacking me as normal. NPC's are attacking and fighting zombies as expected. NPCs don't fight back, because the mechanic is you punch them to make them follow you.

[Spider]

@MadDogBrian-

Is anyone else having this problem? I was playing the current build last night and everything was working fine.

[skippy0330]

Its odd to see nerd poling looked at as a "exploit" in a vox game. first time I've heard of that is here, on this thread. And I have exposure to thousands of people a day. and a lot of experience with many other vox games. It's considered a form of travel because vox doesn't host moving objects well.

 

why break a game mechanic because you think a game mechanic is an exploit? you guys talk about realism as if this game has an ounce of it? I'd LOVE to see a quote where any of the devs mentioned that nerdpoling is an exploit.

 

you made sdx more balanced and easier at the start so players didn't ragequit. if you break building to stop something as small as nerdpoling, you're going to drive anyone away you attracted by doing that.

 

Simply takes 2x the material now to do it. so you put haybales back in so you can nerdpole side by side but break the building mechanics? that's not harder, that's just vengeance on what you think is a exploit.

 

we don't have paint in the game yet to make up for that. and at that point, i'm pretty much done with game considering the survival aspect is very small, and the vox aspect huge. I liked your mod because it brought the survival aspect back but now your breaking the vox part of it. Leave the placement alone for building, and take away the ability to CARRY 100's of tables on you.

 

You claim running around with a bunch of things and jumping and placing them is unrealistic. but having 20 guns on you is?

 

" There is no logical lagetamet reason for a player to be able to jump in the air and build beneath their feet"

 

there is no logical reason you can craft haybales while walking

there is no logical reason you can upgrade spikes and build with a wrench

there is no logical reason you can kill animals by hitting them once, but not zombies

there is no logical reason you could carry a rocket launcher, a minibike in a box, fishing gear, vehicle parts on you at the same time

it's especially not logical that your fighting animated rotting bodies.

 

see my point. if you want to argue nerdpoling with logic, you gotta play a logical game. wouldn't make sense to be able to do that on call of duty, because it's a shooter.

 

I'm not looking for easier, I'm just not looking for pain in the ass.

[xyth]

I called it an exploit not because of its use as a building tool, or for "traveling", but as yet another cheap defensive measure against bad AI. If your out in the open with no POIs or large boulders near, and a bear chases you, you can simple nerd pole up a few metal blocks and snipe down at the bear. Do that routinely and zombies can never get at you even in the open. However, I have no issue with this either way; I will just choose not to use nerdpoles as a tactic as before if Spider decides to reverse this change or make it optional.

[skippy0330]

I'd like to add, if you want to make nerdpoling hard, instead of breaking the game mechanic, make hay bales 100 plant fiber each and 45 second build time. If you make it so we can't hop jump, there will be a lot of problems arise that could be solved in a easier way. and stop allowing us to carry heavy iron tables in stacks.

[Spider]

Nerd poling is not a building feature. Ladders are a building feature. Building while floating is not a feature, it is a exploit plagued by all voxel games and it is one that we have fixed. We will get building on a ladder fixed but I am not putting back in an exploit when there is literally 1,000,000 other legitimate ways of doing it. And yes Madmole has spoken of wanting to remove it. After we get the ladder thing fixed the team might just get the info to TFP and see what they think. Our way is better than some of the other ways that were talking about to fix it.

 

With a quick forums search i found this thread-

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?56966-I-keep-hearing-that-Joel-is-on-some-mad-crusade-to-kill-Nerd-poling-true&highlight=nerd+pole

There are others and i couldnt find MM quote quickly but ill look for it.

 

 

I could tell you 100 ways nerd poling is an exploit from pvp base raiding (nerd poling and jumping over 50 blocks) to when looting ruining hours spent designing a POI by nerd poling up, to hiding from zombies by hiding on a tower. Yes you can still do it by building stairs or placing ladders but those are game mechanics designed and balanced to be used to over come opsticals. Not invincible cheap ways to skirt real game features

[skippy0330]

xyth. you bring a valid point, I never thought about that. Never used it either, so I was actually unaware.

 

But still why remove a whole mechanic for people who play like that? (It's going to make building a bitch and a half) who cares, if thats the way they play abusively, than fine. worst ive done is dig down a copy blocks and bury myself lol. This will make them stop playing because they can't do it, but i believe will make more who use it legitimate reasons leave as well.

[JaxTeller718]

not disagreeing with you, but I'd like to know how " I get it, i hate people who try to overcome obstacles and take shortcuts as well" re: nerd poling.

 

it's a survival game. so you're telling me, in the same situation, trying to stay alive. you wouldn't spend a night on the rooftop safe away from running zombies to stay alive. I don't think it's lazy, I think it's called smart. lazy would be ~ dm g. that's lazy. nerd poling is a legit way of survival. if i can pile ♥♥♥♥ on each other to get on a roof away from a flood, wild animals, a mob, zombies, ANYTHING I'm going to do it. in real life, or in game!

 

I agree tho. don't go starvation mod on this and make it stupid. there's hard, than there is frustrating. there is a huge difference and the reason i stay away from starvation. Its not hard, it's frustrating.

 

What you call frustration I call challenge. We can both have this opinion. I wont argue with you because personally i dont think nerd poling is a big enough deal to even bother trying to prevent. I was merely stating that I understand the desire to want to offer challenges. I didn't call nerd poling an exploit. Maybe i lumped it in with things like spam crafting and it shouldn't have been, but you record YouTube videos for fun, i run a server that relies on people returning daily to stay alive. So my needs are way different than yours. Slowing things down works for me but doesn't for you. And that awesome, thats why we have xml editing. But we both can agree this is a hard coded change that we cant edit to our liking, its being forced on us, and even if we both hated or loved nerd poling, it doesn't matter. It breaks building and functionality. Therefore it must go on that principle alone.

 

Either way we both agree on one thing, this change is ridiculous and seeing as it breaks simple base building functions it needs to go and it needs to go now.

[skippy0330]

All I see on that thread spider, is a few people who think the same way. I didn' see joel say ANYTHING about being on a crusade. just the ones that want it.

 

And this quote is the second or third reply from Roland himself, who wants to see nerdpoling removed.

 

Roland Roland is offline

Super Moderator

 

1

I've never seen Joel bring up the issue or talk about it other than giving his usual noncommittal "yeah, we might do something about that". Not sure where your idea that he is leading a crusade might have come from. There was a thread about exploits awhile back where some of us discussed the OP nature of frame blocks and nerdpoling but he never even participated in that thread.

 

 

So It's not really a problem, he just gave his usual, yeah, we'll look into it reply.

 

and any arguement for it being an "exploit" is using logic. in a zombie game. that's the only thing these guys want to apply logic too, is nerdpoling. It's such a small issue for such a large game breaking change.

[skippy0330]

What you call frustration I call challenge. We can both have this opinion. I wont argue with you because personally i dont think nerd poling is a big enough deal to even bother trying to prevent. I was merely stating that I understand the desire to want to offer challenges. I didnt call nerd poling an exploit. Maybe i lumped it in with things like spam crafting and it shouldnt have been, but you record YouTube videos for fun, i run a server that relies on people returning daily to stay alive. So my needs are way different than yours. Slowing things down works for me but doesnt for you. And that awesome, thats why we have xml editing. But we both can agree this is a hrd coded change that we cant edit to our liking, its being forced on us, and even if we hatred nerd poling, it doesnt matter. It breaks building and functionality. Therefore it must go on that principle alone.

 

Either way we both agree on one thing, this change is ridiculous and seeing as it breaks simple base building functions it needs to go and it needs to go now.

 

you realize i picked up this mod because it stood apart from the other ones for being slower? I don't mind taking the extra time to make the videos. I'm more worried about what you said, the breaking base building for such a small exploit that a handful of pople think that it's an exploit.

I run a very successful server as well, So believe me, I know the struggles.

[unlike them]

Nerd poling not a big issue for me, yes as a builder it will complicate things for me, but not much. I don't see nerd poling a problem, but I'm OK if they remove it.

 

*cough* furniture *cough*

[Spider]

Ok i just dont get it. You are saying that all building in the game is broken because you cant jump in the air and place a block beneath your feet before you fall like buggs bunny. I'm sorry I just dont see how it effects anything but the players that were abusing it.

 

If you used nerd poling to avoid zombies, scale buildings or build. you were using an exploit. Its ok we still love you. It happens to the best of us. And we are here to help you quite and become a better Survivor.

[skippy0330]

* I misread something and took that out of context. I sorry.

[xyth]

Admins can still place blocks in mid air in godmode, and players can still build/place/remove frames as scafolding to work on bases, so I'm not seeing the game over issue here. I think this new feature will be important when breadcrumbs are introduced. Without it, you can just nerdpole up a wallface into your base and the zombies will all head to the wall and wonder how you got up there. So why bother adding breadcrumbs to help fix a broken game mechanic when a simple nerdpole will re-break the fix?

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Nerd poling not a big issue for me, yes as a builder it will complicate things for me, but not much. I don't see nerd poling a problem, but I'm OK if they remove it.

 

*cough* furniture *cough*

 

I told Spider I was gonna add some player craft-able furniture into one of the next builds and he didn't say no..... So don't give up yet.

 

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ok, last argument on that. But show me one Game developer that has said that jump placing is an exploit and coded it into the game so it can be used as one. they code it purposely, if this was such a big problem, why would they code it in? why wouldn't they have "fixed" it the way you did?

 

also, sorry but you're trying to balance pvp on vox. have fun with that. vox is never a true pvp. You've done a good job in coming close to balancing a vox game for pvp, but it's impossible. Until its just as hard to break into a base as it is to make it, than you'll never have good vox pvp. you say nerdpoling to get in bases is a problem? how so, if you can hack through blocks with a steel axe, you can do it from the bottom or the top. if you have to nerdpole because you cant than your tools won't get in anyway.

 

If you've been on proper 7 days pvp servers, its literally just a bunch of people burying chests and making small underground bases. you can see through the damn landscape in the game. <--- that by far is a pvp breaker before nerd poling is.

 

Like i said. the only game thats come close to balancing a vox with pvp is reign of kings. and it was vox on static. *and you could still nerdpole, because they coded it.

 

We can try fixing these issues, one by one. Probably never fix them all but some are fixable and we can try.

[JaxTeller718]

Ok i just dont get it. You are saying that all building in the game is broken because you cant jump in the air and place a block beneath your feet before you fall like buggs bunny. I'm sorry I just dont see how it effects anything but the players that were abusing it.

 

If you used nerd poling to avoid zombies, scale buildings or build. you were using an exploit. Its ok we still love you. It happens to the best of us. And we are here to help you quite and become a better Survivor.

 

Maybe you didnt catch the above post but you also cant be on a ladder and place anything, thereby making secure shafts unbuild-able and ladder replacements impossible.

 

 

This isnt an argument for or against nerd poling in my opinion. If you make it about that i can almost guarantee you that it will be this mods undoing. People WILL be effected by this change, regular people. Yes you eliminated nerd poling, but you did way more than that.

 

You know what else this destroys? You know those slivers you get mid air that need to be filled or literally your world will break from terrain glitching? Like i said its your mod, do what you want. Its my server, and my choice not to support it. The mod was going GREAT until some kind of crusade began against punching steel walls and nerd poling. Maybe you need to reconsider who you are listening to before you destroy your own creation. If this is intended as a PVP only mod it should be labelled as such. Like skippy said good luck with that. Majority of PVP players are NOT going to be into the whole nerd poling thing. Most are not playing for the fairness of leveling and looting POIS, they are there to kill and raid.

 

Sad thing is you KNOW i supported you in our personal conversations but now it is beginning to look a LOT like Starvation. Additions for the sake of additions with no benefits to anyone.

[Mortelentus]

Sorry to meddle on your discussion but I keep seeing starvation poping up... Maybe you guys should stick with the subject, and leave other alone just for the sake of sanity

 

And maybe you should do with Spider what you didn't with starvation... Look at the whole package, maybe it makes more sense then.

 

Problems and disagreements aside, keep up the interesting work.

 

Thank you

[JaxTeller718]

Sorry to meddle on your discussion but I keep seeing starvation poping up... Maybe you guys should stick with the subject, and leave other alone just for the sake of sanity

 

And maybe you should do with Spider what you didn't with starvation... Look at the whole package.

 

Thank you

 

I didnt realize criticism was AGAINST some kind of rule. Starvation is a great mod, I was merely pointing to the Sanity controversy. But you are right as like you said this is not the Starvation thread and i have great respect for what you do Morte.

[Mortelentus]

I'm criticizing your way of criticizing that's all Wasn't rude, or at least I didn't intended to be, honestly.

 

And on this particular case, i'm also honestly on spider side... Just like sanity, if you put it in perspective maybe it makes more sense. For what I've seen it's just the first iteration of something that may or may not work, but why not give it a shot? If nothing else it's fun and challenging from a modding perspective.

 

For sanity for example, the last iterations are, according to many people working... Why not this?

[xyth]

@Jax: If for some reason we can't fix the ladder issue (an that should be fixable) then I totally agree with you. However, if it can be fixed then I don't agree that these changes are mod ending.

[JaxTeller718]

@Jax: If for some reason we can't fix the ladder issue (an that should be fixable) then I totally agree with you. However, if it can be fixed then I don't agree that these changes are mod ending.

 

I will agree there. I dont nerd pole (except on occasion while building) and i get the mod is striving for difficulty. Just please dont lose sight of other mechanics that could be messed with over changes. Im glad to hear you are working on seeing if you can get the ladders situation sorted. That was MY main issue so its all good.

[skippy0330]

Ok, I have to apologize first of all, I TOTALY missed spider mentioning he was adding back in the ability to pick blocks up.

 

I was under the understanding you couldn't jump place and or pick up the blocks you placed. that made my head spin for building!

 

If you can swing that jump placing won't be a problem with ladders and other instances, than I can adapt.

 

I just don't really agree using it to build and get up buildings is an exploit I've always thought it was the charm of playing a vox game vs a static environment

 

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[quote name=

 

 

We can try fixing these issues, one by one. Probably never fix them all but some are fixable and we can try.[/quote]

 

I do actually really like pvp, but it's so toxic on vox games. It's toxic normally. but vox is just full of cheaters, and tfp have thrown no effort into it.