Why isin't zombie rage in the options menu where feral sense is?

[FranticDan]

2 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

No the remove rage mode one.

https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/4180

[pApA^LeGBa]

@FranticDan Thanks, that didn´t show up when searching rage mod. Or i overlooked it...

Edited October 7 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[warmer]

5 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

No the remove rage mode one.

 

@warmer How it can ruin a playtrough? Permadeath, a bit of bad luck and rng hitting you with rage mode at the worst time possible.

 

And as you can see i like a lot of zombies. This is the thing that i don´t like the most about the game. The lack of zombies. A single zombie shouldn´t be a threat they should be dangerous due to their numbers.

I find it funny someone who is manipulating vanilla settings doesn't just finish the job.

 

Your use case is with a modded spawn in game. Not vanilla. If your use case is with modded aspects, your ask is irrelevant to game settings, because you are already messing with them, so mod it to your liking. Don't ask for vanilla settings to help you with your modded game. That is a never ending list.

[theFlu]

9 minutes ago, warmer said:

Don't ask for vanilla settings to help you with your modded game.

That's part of the work to "make the game mod-friendly", which TFP wants to be proud of. Not necessarily a UI setting, but at least a easily moddable xml-setting is perfectly warranted.

[warmer]

26 minutes ago, theFlu said:

That's part of the work to "make the game mod-friendly", which TFP wants to be proud of. Not necessarily a UI setting, but at least a easily moddable xml-setting is perfectly warranted.

That isn't what is being asked for. Someone wants a toggle for a setting they (TFP) don't feel needs a toggle. That is a default they want. Big difference in my opinion. Rage is a core mechanic to how the game is played. It creates interesting dynamic combat vs. repetitive boring same routines. For people that want that, mod it. Don't expect TFP to dumb down their game settings even more for vanilla.

 

What is stopping someone for asking for headshot only toggle, or a no dig toggle, or a no dog toggle? 

 

Once you start making all those options, the asking never stops. Mod it. If it's that important, you do the work. Let them finish the game as they see it first. This is a setting a small % are asking for. 

Edited October 7 by warmer (see edit history)

[theFlu]

3 minutes ago, warmer said:

Someone wants a toggle for a setting they (TFP) don't feel needs a toggle. That is a default they want.

Sure, but they also want the game to be easily moddable - why would that default be holy? Being hard-coded, it's difficult to mod, so

 

4 minutes ago, warmer said:

Mod it.

sounds a little ... obnoxious.

[pApA^LeGBa]

1 hour ago, warmer said:

I find it funny someone who is manipulating vanilla settings doesn't just finish the job.

 

Your use case is with a modded spawn in game. Not vanilla. If your use case is with modded aspects, your ask is irrelevant to game settings, because you are already messing with them, so mod it to your liking. Don't ask for vanilla settings to help you with your modded game. That is a never ending list.

 

You do realize that not all mods just get updated at the same time after a new game version drops and that some are simply discontinued? The more game options mod is the only one right now, at least that i know off from the usual places and i had to ask for it here because it doesn´t pop up if you search for a no rage mode mod. And as someone who does an overhaul mod himself needed another modder to provide him with that, it´s probably more than just a simple xml edit.

 

Dogs and digging do make sense in the game. That´s something for modding. Headshot only, also no need for an option for that as it is pretty niche i would say. But an artifical mechanic that makes absolutly no sense at all and is rng based should be an option. 

 

So yeah, the option to turn it off in vanilla would be nice. Also there is a bunch of reasons for people to simply turn it off in vanilla. You might think it´s not needed, but you are not everyone.

 

Don´t really know why you are so concerned and kinda agressive about this tbh. It´s not like you have to deal with people asking for options, neither does it influence your own game play in any way.

Edited October 7 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Scyris]

On 10/6/2024 at 11:37 AM, warmer said:

I see what you are saying, that applies to a mod. With a mod you can ask for anything and it's valid because you aren't trying to change the vanilla game.

I do find this line really funny personally, "I also find it stupid that a single zombie and a bit of bad luck can mess with your whole playtrough."

That is the essence of the tense anxiety of a zombie apocalypse. THAT is the reason I play this game. In zombie lore a single zombie bite ruins not only your day but your life. Making all zombies dumb with no variation to their typical behavior is incredibly BORING. Keeping all the AI predictable makes for a game you can run on auto pilot. I don't find that fun. I NEED RNG to give me anxiety and make it exciting or this game will cease to be a challenge. I rarely die before day 21 on solo. Usually my horde base has issues on day 21 as it's hard to keep up by yourself. 

How exactly does that ruin a play through? That is what I don't understand. Are people playing no hit end game runs? I don't understand the need to never have a surprise hit in combat. Don't you want a little challenge and a little unpredictable nature to the AI? I don't play games where the challenge is gone. The entire reason I play is to progress and get better. Once you have mastered a game, it ceases to be fun for me.

 

What tense anxiety? there is basically no zombies around in 7dtd, you wanna play 7dtd where its tense? get the Afterlife mod. you won't find it in vanilla at all. The AI in afterlife is slightly randomized, some zombies are stupid and even on blood moon will just hit the first block they get to, others may path. You basically cannot horde them into a kill box in the Afterlife mod, they will not follow your path. Its how blood moon used to be in a16.4 where you had to defend all sides of your base, before they made them "smart" and are so smart you can easly herd them. Afterlife mod also has no traders, its more like the a15 and below experience. Also has like 8+ new ores as well, 2-3 extra tiers of items, a bunch of new enemies and old enemies with reenabled things, like spider zombies can crawl walls again, and they actually have a proper climb animation, they can also climb over lips people used to use to block them in a16 and below. If a modder can do this stuff there is 0 excuse why tfp cannot.

 

What I am asking is not the removal of the rage feature, I am asking for a ingame option to turn it off and on, or increase/decrease how often it happens, or even make it so zombies will rage anytime they are hit. If they got feral sense, and the ability to control their move speed based on time of day and if feral etc, there is no reason why zombie rage cannot be in those settings other than laziness.

 

The biggest issue 7dtd has is the devs try to shoehorn everyone into playing the same way, and this is why the vanilla expeirence is so boring. Add these options, let players play the game how they choose, it'd be better for the game. Hell could even add a spawn multiplier with a tooltip note that says setting it above 1x will effect performance. Let players have some choice, its all I am asking. Just because the game is modable is not a reason for the devs to be lazy and not include options like this. Hell Abiotic factor a much younger early access survival game, already has a world options settings with 20-30 sliders, including stack size's and a ton of other things that normally people would have to mod in, but the devs took the time to include a ingame way to increase these limits without needing outside mods to do so.

 

This game could be so much better if they would add new item tiers, new zombie tiers, new enemies in general and allow us to customize the vanilla experience without needing to use mods, this will especially be good for console players as they most likely will never get mods. If they do get any it'll prob be very basic stuff like editing values of a already existing thing in the game. I used to love this game even unmodded, but the vanilla game has done nothing but go downhill since a17 hit, and most players that played 16.4 and below will agree with me on this. a22.1 aka 1.1 is the worse the game has been to date, stuff that needed to be toned down a little were hit by a wrecking ball instead of a hammer, like the traders, way over nerfed, but thats TFP's MO usually, they way over buff or overnerf things.

2 hours ago, warmer said:

That isn't what is being asked for. Someone wants a toggle for a setting they (TFP) don't feel needs a toggle. That is a default they want. Big difference in my opinion. Rage is a core mechanic to how the game is played. It creates interesting dynamic combat vs. repetitive boring same routines. For people that want that, mod it. Don't expect TFP to dumb down their game settings even more for vanilla.

 

What is stopping someone for asking for headshot only toggle, or a no dig toggle, or a no dog toggle? 

 

Once you start making all those options, the asking never stops. Mod it. If it's that important, you do the work. Let them finish the game as they see it first. This is a setting a small % are asking for. 

 

Except the game is prob never going to be finished, I mean other than art assets what "new" stuff have we gotten since a17? basically nothing. Its just reguratation of the same systems redone over and over for no reason. There is no problem with adding a toggle, its not like you have to use it, but some people might like the option, many other survival games offer options like these, there is no reason 7dtd can't. Its supposed to be a survival game not a linerar rpg like its turning into lately. Players like options, Also your just mod it comment doesn't work because the game is on console, and a mod to remove/edit zombie rage is a .dll mod which means it requires coding to do it, thus it will never work on a console as sony/ms won't allow it. Its why even thou skyrim/fo4 I think has mods on consoles, but you can't get any of the good ones because the good ones require custom code to do what they do and sony/ms won't allow it to run on the console.

 

So no, "just mod it" is not a solution for an option that could easly be placed in the same area feral sense and the run speeds are, especially for consoles.

[warmer]

3 hours ago, theFlu said:

Sure, but they also want the game to be easily moddable - why would that default be holy? Being hard-coded, it's difficult to mod, so

 

sounds a little ... obnoxious.

It's not hard coded, there is already a mod for this.

 

Nexus mod search "No Zombie Rage" problem solved and you didn't need to waste the devs time for something a small % are asking for.

 

TFP are making the game they want first. Why did they add in rage mode? Because the combat was too easy and predictable. They literally stated this as their reasoning when it was added to the game. A ton of people complain the game is already too easy on max difficulty. I don't see any reason for them to remove something they added to solve a problem they perceived, especially when there is a mod for it. Adding a button next to feral sense is NOT as simple as you think it is. That is why when a mod exists to solve a problem, there isn't a lot of motivation on their part to fix something they don't perceive to be an issue (ya know because a solution exists)

Edited October 7 by warmer (see edit history)

[theFlu]

22 minutes ago, warmer said:

Nexus mod search "No Zombie Rage"

Nexus requires an account for downloads, so I can't confirm this, but the  description says:

"Well then this mod stops zombies from going into AttackArea behavior after falling. Or as some people call it "rage mode". "

 

Different thing.

 

The one linked by FranticDan is a .dll mod, which smells like hooks to hack past hard-coded stuff; which is about as reliable as bubblegum fixing your fuel lines, and about as easy to modify.

[warmer]

21 hours ago, theFlu said:

Nexus requires an account for downloads, so I can't confirm this, but the  description says:

"Well then this mod stops zombies from going into AttackArea behavior after falling. Or as some people call it "rage mode". "

 

The one linked by FranticDan is a .dll mod, which smells like hooks to hack past hard-coded stuff; which is about as reliable as bubblegum fixing your fuel lines, and about as easy to modify.

Well then I stand corrected. The thing is, if a solution exists, they won't waste their time fixing something they themselves felt necessary to implement. There are so many other things ahead of this. If a solution exists use it. When it comes to making the game the way you want, I take it upon myself to mod it to my liking. I don't ask them to fix it for me.

[pApA^LeGBa]

Exactly one solution exists and if you just look for rage mode removed you won´t find that solution. It´s nothing you can do in the XML´s just editing a few lines of text. I already have to fix the low zombie spawn that we have, so console hardware isn´t overwhelmed by it with a mod. And rage mode is a direct consequence of that but not easy to mod. So a toggle would just be fair tbh.

Edited October 8 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[theFlu]

54 minutes ago, warmer said:

Well then I stand corrected.

Admirable. As well as your willingness to "mod it yourself". I just don't see the point in arguing against a request from a resource perspective; it kinda assumes TFP are incapable of assessing that themselves, while it is US who don't have the faintest idea how expensive each idea is.

[warmer]

2 hours ago, theFlu said:

Admirable. As well as your willingness to "mod it yourself". I just don't see the point in arguing against a request from a resource perspective; it kinda assumes TFP are incapable of assessing that themselves, while it is US who don't have the faintest idea how expensive each idea is.

On a scale of 1-10 as far as game breaking. This isn't a flaw or a bug, it's a 0, its by design. That means it's the last on the list because so few people are actually requesting this. All that to say, don't hold your breath. 

Edited October 8 by warmer (see edit history)

[theFlu]

6 minutes ago, warmer said:

This isn't a flaw or a bug, it's a 0, its by design. That means it's the last on the list because so few people are actually requesting this.

I do agree, it does seem a low prio issue at best.

[pApA^LeGBa]

Bringing this back here as it is derailing the other thread. @theFlu

 

17 minutes ago, warmer said:

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how coding works. Bringing jars back is actually simple in comparison than reworking every entity AI to removing that function. A toggle button does nothing by itself. You need to make that toggle button modify a file on the fly for that specific aspect of the game. That is an entity condition.

 

Feral sense is a Player condition that can be changing with a single value.

 

Rage is a condition associated with each entity as a unique rule. It is not a blanket rule like feral sense.

 

This is why you don't understand my point of view. You a missing the understanding of what you are actually asking to be done. Asking for someone to bring a rock back from the moon is a lot more complex than simply asking the question.

 

You maybe would be right if no rage wouldn´t be already in the game. But it is. On the lowest difficulty. So no, it wouldn´t need a complete rework of the mechanic and AI. It would be a simple thing to add a toggle on/off for all difficulties.

 

Still refusing to have any good reason why something that doesn´t effect you at all bothers you so much.

 

Edited October 10 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[theFlu]

35 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Bringing this back here as it is derailing the other thread. @theFlu

All right, all right.. let's move:

 

 

44 minutes ago, warmer said:

Rage is a condition associated with each entity as a unique rule.

How sure are you of this; I haven't seen the code, but I'd guess this is within a single AI function, perhaps a couple different variants, but essentially no more than ~3 injections in to the code of a setting-conditional multiplier for the odds calculation.

[Kosmic Kerman]

57 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Still refusing to have any good reason why something that doesn´t effect you at all bothers you so much.

 

 

Every setting added increases the complexity of the game. Each new setting increases the possibility of adding a hard to track down bug now or in the future. It also increases the load on the QA testers as they now have more permutations that should be/need to be tested. I say this to simply point out that there is a cost to every addition of a new setting both now and in the future. And its for TFP to weigh whether that cost is worth it. None of us know how simple, hard, or prone to causing bugs such an option would be.

 

I have no problem with people asking for additional settings and I have no problem with people arguing against them. But pretending like there is no cost or a trivial cost to adding a setting is nothing more that wishcasting that you can get what you want without consequence.  Here's the producer/designer/director of Fallout 1, Fallout 2, and Outerworlds, Tim Cain, who briefly mentions it in a discussion about game design choices. The section starts at 3:15 and the video should start there.  But the whole video is worth watching because it is a perfect encapsulation of this forum at times and several of the recent threads (jars, rage, playstyles, etc.). 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 10 by Kosmic Kerman (see edit history)

[warmer]

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Bringing this back here as it is derailing the other thread. @theFlu

 

 

You maybe would be right if no rage wouldn´t be already in the game. But it is. On the lowest difficulty. 

So there is no problem here.

54 minutes ago, theFlu said:

All right, all right.. let's move:

 

 

How sure are you of this; I haven't seen the code, but I'd guess this is within a single AI function, perhaps a couple different variants, but essentially no more than ~3 injections in to the code of a setting-conditional multiplier for the odds calculation.

Each entity has different AI behaviors. I have searched every xml I can't find any values associated with rage except the destroy everything within a given radius which is not what you are asking about.

 

The point I was making is jars or no jars is a Boolean type scenario, not a much more complex AI modification. AI modification is CPU intensive vs. Something like a jar which isn't. If one which is much simpler and has had WAY more people complain about not getting fixed, I give something like this which requires a lot more work no chance. I am not against this. I am being honest about the chances of this getting fixed when it was implemented to solve a problem they perceived. I think people asking for fundamental changes to how the AI works will never get what they want. That is the position I am taking. Once a dev does this micro manage changing for player request it NEVER ENDS.

Edited October 10 by warmer (see edit history)

[theFlu]

27 minutes ago, warmer said:

AI modification is CPU intensive

It can be, but that's not a universal rule. The rage mode check is ran once per hit; it's not that many per second even during a horde night... if the settings test becomes an issue there, you can prebake the result into some variables used. Or even use a completely different function for each setting with basically no CPU cost. But honestly, it's so simple and rare, that I really can't see how this setting would cause any issues.

 

Jars aren't a resource issue either; sure. They're a game design issue. TFP doesn't like the inventory clutter, nor the "ease" of the mass production. Simply adding them back would break the intended design of limiting water amounts; while the balance isn't there atm, it might get tuned into something more restricting. I wouldn't mind having them, in fact I'd like it, but TFP seems rather settled.

Edited October 10 by theFlu (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

Yeah there is no problem adding a toggle to turn rage mode on and off for all difficulties.

 

Having rage mode turned off would actually be less CPU intensive as there is no need to check if the zombie gets into rage mode or not. You seem to forget that there is already a way to play with no rage mode in vanilla on the lowest difficulty and that doesn´t impact performance at all.

 

Still no real reason why you are so against it. Unless you are a dev in disguise. And even then, people ask for things all the time and that doesn´t harm the devs at all. Not a single bit. They can simply ignore it as they do anyways most of the time. So nothing would change if they add a toggle for rage mode.

 

 

 

Edited October 10 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[warmer]

4 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Yeah there is no problem adding a toggle to turn rage mode on and off for all difficulties.

 

Having rage mode turned off would actually be less CPU intensive as there is no need to check if the zombie gets into rage mode or not. You seem to forget that there is already a way to play with no rage mode in vanilla on the lowest difficulty and that doesn´t impact performance at all.

 

Still no real reason why you are so against it. Unless you are a dev in disguise. And even then, people ask for things all the time and that doesn´t harm the devs at all. Not a single bit. They can simply ignore it as they do anyways most of the time. So nothing would change if they add a toggle for that, just one more thing to ignore.

 

 

 

Never said I was against giving it to players. I said it is highly unlikely something they intended to be added would be removed. I don't care if you have it. I personally like it because the AI is way to predictable fory liking without it.

 

That being said, If it's already in game on the easiest setting, then you can EASILY mod the zombies to be more difficult/hp/dam to make this applicable to higher difficulty. You just need to MOD the spawn rate and entity HP. Again guys. What you are asking for can already be achieved without any dev time.

[theFlu]

14 minutes ago, warmer said:

then you can EASILY mod the zombies to be more difficult/hp/dam to make this applicable to higher difficulty. You just need to MOD the spawn rate and entity HP.

It's a decent suggestion for a workaround, but it relies on everything else affected by the difficulty modifier being easy to modify. It's seems apparent by now, that you do not know if that's the case; you can't make the claim of IT'S EASY.

[warmer]

44 minutes ago, theFlu said:

It's a decent suggestion for a workaround, but it relies on everything else affected by the difficulty modifier being easy to modify. It's seems apparent by now, that you do not know if that's the case; you can't make the claim of IT'S EASY.

Download a mod. Done. It's the "make it perfect for me" that I take issue with. We all have agency. Until you exhaust your resources, asking the dev to fix something you can fix yourself is just lazy.

Edited October 10 by warmer (see edit history)

[theFlu]

4 minutes ago, warmer said:

Download a mod. Done.

So, rely on someone else to do the work for you, for free, instead of being lazy and asking someone else to do the work for you, for free.

 

But if you just hate entitled lazy people, you should've just said so from the get go, we could've agreed!