Do you think armor is too cheap?

[Adam the Waster]

Personally I think it's too cheap. While Armor kits and light armor are fine. Medium and heavy should be more expensive 

 

 

Even adding old things like millitary fibers, leather padding, uses more parts like nails, cloth, cotton 

 

 

[binf_shinana]

If we're talking about vanilla, I would never buy it at the current price. It's too expensive.
Armor magazines are easier to get just by increasing your attributes, so you can make good armor even if you don't want to.

Edited August 1 by binf_shinana (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

Yeah, it´s too easy to get everything. In SP that is. Having enough armor and legendary parts in MP with 4-5 players can be quite the challenge. Sure one set for everyone, no problem, but having different ones for everyone is not as easy and quite tedious. 

 

I am torn on this one. This is one of the things that would need a different balance depending on how many people play together in a party.  So i am staying out of this poll as both is a valid answer for me depending if i play alone or not.

 

21 minutes ago, binf_shinana said:

If we're talking about vanilla, I would never buy it at the current price. It's too expensive.
Armor magazines are easier to get just by increasing your attributes, so you can make good armor even if you don't want to.

 

He is talking about crafting costs.

Edited August 1 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Suxar]

22 minutes ago, binf_shinana said:

Armor magazines are easier to get just by increasing your attributes

Characteristics may not be increased. Don't forget that light armor does not have its own skill.

[binf_shinana]

My first language is Japanese, so I'm not very good at accurately throwing and getting the nuances of English

Rather than the crafting cost, I think the problem is that armor magazines are easier to get just by increasing STR and FRT even without armor skills, and legendary parts are too easy to get.

[pApA^LeGBa]

8 minutes ago, Suxar said:

Characteristics may not be increased. Don't forget that light armor does not have its own skill.

 

You get the magazines like crazy even without any armor skill. I was maxed out really fast without any skill in armors.

Edited August 1 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Javabean867]

4 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

You get the magazines like crazy even without any armor skill. I was maxed out really fast without any skill in armors.

They definitely wanted to make sure people got a chance to play with the armor system and get what-ever sets they wanted fast.  I'm not complaining about this though.  I think upcoming banlance patches will slow that rate down a little, even with perks being spent.

 

 

9 minutes ago, binf_shinana said:

My first language is Japanese, so I'm not very good at accurately throwing and getting the nuances of English

Rather than the crafting cost, I think the problem is that armor magazines are easier to get just by increasing STR and FRT even without armor skills, and legendary parts are too easy to get.

No worries about any confusion.  Stat increases (strength for heavy armor and agility for medium armor) actually don't change the chance of getting armor mags, if you want that to happen you need to spend perk points into the heavy and medium armor perks.  

The game is currently giving out tons of armor magazines naturally, so it probably feels as though increasing the stats is giving you a bonus.

[Suxar]

10 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

You get the magazines like crazy even without any armor skill. I was maxed out really fast without any skill in armors.

If I use light armor that doesn't have a skill, how else will I get the magazines to make it?

I don't speak English and use Google translator. Therefore, I may not be expressing my thoughts entirely correctly.

[binf_shinana]

21 minutes ago, Suxar said:

If I use light armor that doesn't have a skill, how else will I get the magazines to make it?

I don't speak English and use Google translator. Therefore, I may not be expressing my thoughts entirely correctly.

Unlike up to a21, in v1.0 armor skills do not increase magazine size.
In v1.0, the more you increase your PER, STR, FRT, AGI, and INT, the more armor magazines you can get. It's written in the crafting skill section, but it's a sudden change so it's not surprising you don't notice.

[Adam the Waster]

2 hours ago, binf_shinana said:

If we're talking about vanilla, I would never buy it at the current price. It's too expensive.
Armor magazines are easier to get just by increasing your attributes, so you can make good armor even if you don't want to.

I ment crafting 

[Kosmic Kerman]

1 hour ago, Suxar said:

If I use light armor that doesn't have a skill, how else will I get the magazines to make it?

I don't speak English and use Google translator. Therefore, I may not be expressing my thoughts entirely correctly.

Perk points in the main attributes (i.e., Perception, Strength, etc.) increase the probability of finding armor books. Perk points in the Medium and Heavy Armor skills do not increase the probability of finding armor books.  Investing in the armor perks increases the probability of finding that type of armor in loot in addition to the other benefits those perks provide.

[Adam the Waster]

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

You get the magazines like crazy even without any armor skill. I was maxed out really fast without any skill in armors.

I just think to craft raider armor tier 2 it's just needs to "Armor parts" and sowing kits and not iron or steel until you get to tier 3 or 4 I think. 

 

 

Imo this is how armor should be crafting should be

 

Light: fine. Main cost is cloth and leather. And later raw iron, a nail or two ,tape and armor kits

 

Mid: leather mostly, nails, millitary added), forged Iron, plastic, tape and armor kits

 

Heavy: leather, iron and armor parts right out the gate. Then upgraded, you need steel, plastic and tape

[Kosmic Kerman]

2 hours ago, Javabean867 said:

No worries about any confusion.  Stat increases (strength for heavy armor and agility for medium armor) actually don't change the chance of getting armor mags, if you want that to happen you need to spend perk points into the heavy and medium armor perks. 

 

If you are basing this claim on the in-game description of the skill this is incorrect. This may have been true while it was in development before experimental but it's no longer the case. If you are interested in what is actually happening you can look at the progression.xml file.

Just now, Adam the Waster said:

I just think to craft raider armor tier 2 it's just needs to "Armor parts" and sowing kits and not iron or steel until you get to tier 3 or 4 I think. 

 

 

Imo this is how armor should be crafting should be

 

Light: fine. Main cost is cloth and leather. And later raw iron, a nail or two ,tape and armor kits

 

Mid: leather mostly, nails, millitary added), forged Iron, plastic, tape and armor kits

 

Heavy: leather, iron and armor parts right out the gate. Then upgraded, you need steel, plastic and tape

 

Why? Your suggestion seems to suggest that you believe heavy armor to be clearly superior. I think all three armor types have their uses and one is not better than the others. I never bothered with Heavy armor in prior versions because I didn't and don't care for the noise and movement penalties.  And even in 1.0 I delay equipping medium and heavy armor for the same reasons. And I only equip a heavy armor piece if I think the bonus warrants it. I'd much rather be speedy and wake up less sleepers than have more armor points.  And FYI I generally never bother with stealth so this has nothing to do with sneaking.

[BFT2020]

In A21, it took forever to unlock the higher tier armors - at least that was my experience.  That included the fact that I played mostly agility builds at the time and light armor was a perk in that tree.  I believe they wanted to address that, but swung a bit too far to the other direction.

 

I been thinking about changing up the armor crafting tree myself (I just realized today I got a lot of mod projects on my plate) where I separated light armor from medium and heavy.   So now the progression would be:  primitive -> light -> medium or heavy.  It doesn't make light less important than the other armor sets (so if you are working towards maxing out light, you can get there earlier), but there is a more clear tier progression if you are looking to get to the heavier armors later in the game.  Kind of like the old system where you went fibers -> padded -> leather -> military or fibers -> scrap -> iron -> steel.

[lord_ahriman]

I think the price is somewhat fine, but looting needs to be addressed: you get magazines way too fast. Imo, it should be nerfed at the very least 50%.

[Adam the Waster]

5 hours ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

 

If you are basing this claim on the in-game description of the skill this is incorrect. This may have been true while it was in development before experimental but it's no longer the case. If you are interested in what is actually happening you can look at the progression.xml file.

 

Why? Your suggestion seems to suggest that you believe heavy armor to be clearly superior. I think all three armor types have their uses and one is not better than the others. I never bothered with Heavy armor in prior versions because I didn't and don't care for the noise and movement penalties.  And even in 1.0 I delay equipping medium and heavy armor for the same reasons. And I only equip a heavy armor piece if I think the bonus warrants it. I'd much rather be speedy and wake up less sleepers than have more armor points.  And FYI I generally never bother with stealth so this has nothing to do with sneaking.

1: progression 

 

2: makes sense crafting wise

 

3: That one book that let's you rub with any armor is the reason

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

13 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

1: progression 

 

2: makes sense crafting wise

 

3: That one book that let's you rub with any armor is the reason

 

 

Progression assumes you are actually progressing. Heavy isn't intrinsically superior to light or medium armor.  That this was once the progression curve doesn't really hold with the new armor types. The bonuses largely dictate what you find appealing and what you will go for. Further, progression is gated by quality and can be modified by reducing accumulation of crafting skill books.  You could reduce the probability of finding armor books per perk point or you could reduce when the increase to drop chance starts applying. In terms of crafting, its all an abstraction. I'm sure armor kits and sewing kits are used because they are a dial TFP can turn to control how easy or hard it is to craft armor. Any switch to easily obtainable resources (which includes steel) means TFP has less ability to control when something is craftable. 

 

 

[Krougal]

15 hours ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

 

Progression assumes you are actually progressing. Heavy isn't intrinsically superior to light or medium armor.  That this was once the progression curve doesn't really hold with the new armor types. The bonuses largely dictate what you find appealing and what you will go for. Further, progression is gated by quality and can be modified by reducing accumulation of crafting skill books.  You could reduce the probability of finding armor books per perk point or you could reduce when the increase to drop chance starts applying. In terms of crafting, its all an abstraction. I'm sure armor kits and sewing kits are used because they are a dial TFP can turn to control how easy or hard it is to craft armor. Any switch to easily obtainable resources (which includes steel) means TFP has less ability to control when something is craftable. 

 

 

Good point. It used to be progression to military armor OR steel armor, but steel was not an upgrade from military, nor vice versa.

Now I haven't even begun to sort out the new mess, and I haven't gotten past...light armor? What passes for clothing these days? Class based armor? I don't even know what we are calling it.

Anyway, each of those suits being different, they certainly aren't progression from each other. So far the progression I've seen is primitive armor to class suits. Which is fine. I don't feel everything has to have a lot of progression (face it, I'm just not very progressive :P) , although I supposed consistency is also good in a game.