Trigger Rooms in POIs make sneaking an awful choice.

[DJDaedrik]

Could we please chill the F out with the triggered zombies!? Holy guano, batman, it's like every POI they've updated since A20 has 2-5 different triggered events that don't give a damn about your stealth. Arrows are already notorious for flying straight through heads with no impact, and now 15-20% of the zombies in a POI just completely ignore your stealth in which you've invested a bunch of skill points, making your character objectively worse at clearing the only type of content sneaking is applicable to. Sneak already does literally nothing for you on Horde nights, and now it is ignored by large portions of POIs, often including the end rooms which are already the hardest part of the damn thing. If you want there to be events like ceilings collapsing and dumping zombies into rooms or zombies stumbling out of rooms, at least respect the fact that when it happened, I was sneaking in a shadowy corner wearing tier 5 assassin armor in the dead of night, with 5 points in the sneak skill and a 2/100 on the noise meter. What an absolute waste of points. So, word of advice, stick to the same builds that have been king for the last 5 years now. Go strength, whack the zombies with hammers and bats until you're leveled enough to make guns, then shoot them.

[zztong]

As a stealth player, I'd like to point out a tactic you might not be using. With your higher level of stealth skill (5/5) and high tier (5) assassin armor, those zombies will be losing sight of you pretty quickly. When a triggered event happens disengage a little ways, break line of sight, and give it a few seconds for the zombies to lose track of you. Then you can stealth kill them. When you sense an ambush is likely, prepare the encounter area with a few of your own blocks. It was possible to do all this in A21 without the Assassin armor (and with skill levels lower than 5), but that armor will make it easier.

 

For horde nights, correct, stealth is useless. So are a great many other perks. Rock and roll with your guns. They way I look at it is I have far more ammo for horde night because I'm clearing POIs using (and recovering) stone arrows.

[8_Hussars]

Man, I am contrary today.

I find the expectation of 100% stealth success interesting.   Stealth should never be 100% guaranteed nor should it be 100% predictable.  Regardless of trigger spawns (not a fan), there realistically needs to be opportunities for stealth to fail. 

Edited Wednesday at 09:11 PM by 8_Hussars (see edit history)

[Fisher]

Stealth can indeed fail now.  Once you encounter the wandering sleepers, you'll understand how. 

 

Not sure how I feel about it when ones in the final room wake up and circle behind me...

[8_Hussars]

28 minutes ago, Fisher said:

Stealth can indeed fail now.  Once you encounter the wandering sleepers, you'll understand how. 

 

Not sure how I feel about it when ones in the final room wake up and circle behind me...

I appreciate that stealth fails now.  However, in stealth discussions generally there are normally two camps.  One camp expects stealth to be 100% predictable and works 100% of the time, and one camp that does not. 

[Scyris]

47 minutes ago, Fisher said:

Stealth can indeed fail now.  Once you encounter the wandering sleepers, you'll understand how. 

 

Not sure how I feel about it when ones in the final room wake up and circle behind me...

 

Yeah, i've found a few of these, sleepers that are basically wandering around inside the poi, Can still sneak attack them assuming they do not see you first, this is honestly all we need instead of triggered spawns with zombies that immedatly know your position before they even hit the ground. However not every sleeper should be a roaming one, I like how it is in 1.0 where the roaming ones are semi-rare, it makes it a bit special.

 

The tier 6 assassin set is kinda insane with it lowering enemy search time by 99%, it basically makes it so a second after you break line of sight they go back to wander mode, though I do wonder, do you even need that by the time your able to make a tier 6 set? I'd figured you'd be a walking weapon depot by that point.

[zztong]

28 minutes ago, Scyris said:

The tier 6 assassin set is kinda insane with it lowering enemy search time by 99%, it basically makes it so a second after you break line of sight they go back to wander mode, though I do wonder, do you even need that by the time your able to make a tier 6 set? I'd figured you'd be a walking weapon depot by that point.

 

It is certainly a convenience. Without it, but with a high stealth skill, you might need to trigger a large event and then flee back a little ways to shake off and break contact with a dozen or more zombies. Loosing contact in the next second to me means not having to back off very far.

 

It also might change those encounters were you "drop into" the fight with no TFP-provided ready exit. I usually use a pick/axe to give myself an exit before "dropping in." I may not need to do that if I think the layout gives me a place to break contact. That'll take some playing for me to figure out.

 

1 hour ago, 8_Hussars said:

I find the expectation of 100% stealth success interesting.   Stealth should never be 100% guaranteed nor should it be 100% predictable.

 

As a newer player, I expected "crouch and go" stealth with the right gear to be 100% -- that it entirely be a skill/equipment vs zombie level comparison.

 

But as an experienced player, I appreciate stealth involving more "tradecraft" or careful play. That is, avoiding the noise-makers on the floor, avoiding lighting, watching my proximity to the zombies, and now I'll appreciate the complications of wandering zombies. Triggers did require an adjustment in tactics, but that was neither fatal to stealth play or a bad thing.

Edited Wednesday at 10:52 PM by zztong (see edit history)

[Scyris]

11 minutes ago, zztong said:

 

It is certainly a convenience. Without it, but with a high stealth skill, you might need to trigger a large event and then flee back a little ways to shake off and break contact with a dozen or more zombies. Loosing contact in the next second to me means not having to back off very far.

 

It also might change those encounters were you "drop into" the fight with no TFP-provided ready exit. I usually use a pick/axe to give myself an exit before "dropping in." I may not need to do that if I think the layout gives me a place to break contact. That'll take some playing for me to figure out.

 

 

As a newer player, I expected "crouch and go" stealth with the right gear to be 100% -- that it entirely be a skill/equipment vs zombie level comparison.

 

But as an experienced player, I appreciate stealth involving more "tradecraft" or careful play. That is, avoiding the noise-makers on the floor, avoiding lighting, watching my proximity to the zombies, and now I'll appreciate the complications of wandering zombies. Triggers did require an adjustment in tactics, but that was neither fatal to stealth play or a bad thing.

 

Worse thing for stealth play is easly the fact every sleeper is almost always hidden perfectly placed behind a block, and when you try to get line of sight they seem to always wake up.

[zztong]

54 minutes ago, Scyris said:

 

Worse thing for stealth play is easly the fact every sleeper is almost always hidden perfectly placed behind a block, and when you try to get line of sight they seem to always wake up.

 

Hiding zombies is part of the fun of POI design, but I hear you. I tend to put some of the Zeds out in the open. But this is also a matter of stealth technique and trying to keep your distance/proximity away from those locations you cannot see, taking a gamble as to stick to the left or right wall, reading the room as you can see it.

 

Avoiding the falling traps is also part of the run. Seemingly silly things like walking on railings, climbing over furniture, and more can be effective.

[DJDaedrik]

5 hours ago, zztong said:

For horde nights, correct, stealth is useless. So are a great many other perks. Rock and roll with your guns. They way I look at it is I have far more ammo for horde night because I'm clearing POIs using (and recovering) stone arrows.

Sure, farming and crafting aren't directly useful on hordes, but the stealth package is really the only combat focused perk set that is useless on horde night, with its best weapons (bows/crossbows) being almost completely useless for hordes as well. That's 15 points of investment for careful and clean POE clearing that doesn't help you for hordes. I think an expectation of those points making you really damn strong in POIs is pretty fair for the extreme investment.

 

Overall, I believe that Stealth should be 100% skill based. It should be able to fail, of course, but only when you do (after full investment in both skills and gear). Walking carefully and quietly into a room only to have 8 zombies (2 of which are behind your squishy ass), all be triggered into awareness and aggro, is immersion breaking, skill ignoring nonsense. Sure, you can run outta there, break LoS, hide, let them go back to wandering, sneak your way back, then take them out. But in the late game or on higher movement speeds, outrunning ferals and rads is nigh impossible without buffs or cheesy nonsense (nerd-poles, block barricades, quick ladders, etc.). and often results in taking a few hits that are perfectly able to stun, concuss, lacerate, break bones, or otherwise prevent you from getting away to hide again. That's the whole point of stealth builds in the first place; taking your time, being careful, and avoiding the gnarly repercussions of melee combat. If I invest the points, act carefully, have good POI and game knowledge/awareness, and craft all the right gear, simply walking into a room should not completely ignore all of that and force me into exactly the kind of situation I have made myself unable to handle.

[zztong]

2 hours ago, DJDaedrik said:

Sure, farming and crafting aren't directly useful on hordes, but the stealth package is really the only combat focused perk set that is useless on horde night, with its best weapons (bows/crossbows) being almost completely useless for hordes as well. That's 15 points of investment for careful and clean POE clearing that doesn't help you for hordes. I think an expectation of those points making you really damn strong in POIs is pretty fair for the extreme investment.

 

Strange, I bow kite Zeds during early hordes. It's pretty easy to run out of bullets. Sure, it isn't the optimal choice when you've got bullets and guns. Would you also say a Q1 9mm pistol useless in a horde? Are you only focused on late-game hordes and maxed-out characters?

 

By my count, 5 points for Stealth. You're likely counting the points for Agility, but I wouldn't. 

 

2 hours ago, DJDaedrik said:

If I invest the points, act carefully, have good POI and game knowledge/awareness, and craft all the right gear, simply walking into a room should not completely ignore all of that and force me into exactly the kind of situation I have made myself unable to handle.

 

I can sympathize and agree here to some extent. I won't go with what you say being a 100% thing, but I would go with a 75% to 90% thing. I'd rather the POI designer complicate the stealth game instead of abandon it as the use of triggers can feel like when they get overused, but I'm not going to say this is an absolute. Sometimes the designer should be able to trigger an event and conspire to have zombies come at us from all sides.

 

Now with 1.0, I see designers have some other options, including delaying spawns and wanderers. Those will give more options both with and without triggers.

[OmegaFerret]

i just dont like that they spawn from no where then for some reason they trigger all the other spawn spots and the rest in the poi and just rush you.

It has happened like that a few time to me in a21.

So far havent really had much of a problem. Though im not at my fullest build of stealth now.

[zztong]

1 hour ago, OmegaFerret said:

i just dont like that they spawn from no where then for some reason they trigger all the other spawn spots and the rest in the poi and just rush you.

 

I assume what you mean is they spawn where you can see them or in places that you've cleared. If so, I'm not a fan of that either.

 

I've looked at the new Min Script we can put on a zombie volume and it would let us spawn zombies in waves, where you might even see them materialize in front of you. I can't speak for every POI designer, but that's not something I want to happen.

 

As for zombies spawning where I've already cleared, I'm of mixed feelings. I kind of depends on how long ago I cleared and if there are paths to get to where I cleared without going through me. That is, I don't mind zombies coming in off the street, so to speak. But I clear a closet, then turn on the lights and a zombie appears in the closet, then I'm going to be disappointed unless that zombie is wearing a Star Trek uniform and there's some transporter noises.

[OmegaFerret]

50 minutes ago, zztong said:

 

I assume what you mean is they spawn where you can see them or in places that you've cleared. If so, I'm not a fan of that either.

 

I've looked at the new Min Script we can put on a zombie volume and it would let us spawn zombies in waves, where you might even see them materialize in front of you. I can't speak for every POI designer, but that's not something I want to happen.

 

As for zombies spawning where I've already cleared, I'm of mixed feelings. I kind of depends on how long ago I cleared and if there are paths to get to where I cleared without going through me. That is, I don't mind zombies coming in off the street, so to speak. But I clear a closet, then turn on the lights and a zombie appears in the closet, then I'm going to be disappointed unless that zombie is wearing a Star Trek uniform and there's some transporter noises.

Yeah in A21 i was doing a clear quest and was like minding my own bushiness movin slow. Then bamn like 4 zombies spawned right on top of me which then causes the whole POI to aggro. 

[DJDaedrik]

2 hours ago, zztong said:

 

Strange, I bow kite Zeds during early hordes. It's pretty easy to run out of bullets. Sure, it isn't the optimal choice when you've got bullets and guns. Would you also say a Q1 9mm pistol useless in a horde? Are you only focused on late-game hordes and maxed-out characters?

 

By my count, 5 points for Stealth. You're likely counting the points for Agility, but I wouldn't. 

 

 

I can sympathize and agree here to some extent. I won't go with what you say being a 100% thing, but I would go with a 75% to 90% thing. I'd rather the POI designer complicate the stealth game instead of abandon it as the use of triggers can feel like when they get overused, but I'm not going to say this is an absolute. Sometimes the designer should be able to trigger an event and conspire to have zombies come at us from all sides.

 

Now with 1.0, I see designers have some other options, including delaying spawns and wanderers. Those will give more options both with and without triggers.

 

Kiting early hordes out in the open is an extremely inefficient way to kill your highest volume of XP early game. Set up a hatch hallway or a basic melee fighting position and stab away (since knives are in Agi, they're the natural pick for horde nights). You'll kill at least 10x as many and get WAY more XP than running around shooting arrows at them.

 

15 is 5 for Bows (which are the least efficient horde/open fighting weapon around, so I use them exclusively for sneak shots), 5 for From The Shadows (the actual Stealth skill), and 5 for Hidden Strike (the sneak attack bonus damage skill). The only benefit of bows over other weapons aside from their cheap ammo is their silence, so I include them as part of the stealth package. If you're looking to kill efficiently, and make the best use of your limited time between hordes, it's definitely best to pop equal points into knives and stab zombies down outside of sneaking.

 

Nah, there's no need to abandon triggers, they just need to not auto aggro the spawned zombies on hidden players. Triggering zombies as it stands now makes them automatically aware of the player, regardless of stealth status or noise meter, which removes all use of stealth in those encounters. If the triggered zombies did whatever they were triggered to do without magically knowing where you are, those events would be perfectly fine in most cases. It's the problem of counterplay. If there's nothing I can do to play around it or combat it, it's not fun or interesting. I don't know if you've ever sneaked into the feral wight corridor on a late game character with high loot stage on an infested mission, but I promise you, even with a mega crush and full Cardio, you're not gonna escape the the fastest zombies in the game that all know right where you are and are completely surrounding you. You just get to fight them in melee on a character heavily invested into never being in melee, wearing light armor. Instant death with no counterplay isn't really fun.

[Scyris]

46 minutes ago, DJDaedrik said:

 

Kiting early hordes out in the open is an extremely inefficient way to kill your highest volume of XP early game. Set up a hatch hallway or a basic melee fighting position and stab away (since knives are in Agi, they're the natural pick for horde nights). You'll kill at least 10x as many and get WAY more XP than running around shooting arrows at them.

 

15 is 5 for Bows (which are the least efficient horde/open fighting weapon around, so I use them exclusively for sneak shots), 5 for From The Shadows (the actual Stealth skill), and 5 for Hidden Strike (the sneak attack bonus damage skill). The only benefit of bows over other weapons aside from their cheap ammo is their silence, so I include them as part of the stealth package. If you're looking to kill efficiently, and make the best use of your limited time between hordes, it's definitely best to pop equal points into knives and stab zombies down outside of sneaking.

 

Nah, there's no need to abandon triggers, they just need to not auto aggro the spawned zombies on hidden players. Triggering zombies as it stands now makes them automatically aware of the player, regardless of stealth status or noise meter, which removes all use of stealth in those encounters. If the triggered zombies did whatever they were triggered to do without magically knowing where you are, those events would be perfectly fine in most cases. It's the problem of counterplay. If there's nothing I can do to play around it or combat it, it's not fun or interesting. I don't know if you've ever sneaked into the feral wight corridor on a late game character with high loot stage on an infested mission, but I promise you, even with a mega crush and full Cardio, you're not gonna escape the the fastest zombies in the game that all know right where you are and are completely surrounding you. You just get to fight them in melee on a character heavily invested into never being in melee, wearing light armor. Instant death with no counterplay isn't really fun.

 

You also forget bows/crossbows have the highest sneak attack modifer in the game. its much higher than all other weapons. I'm on warrior and a tier 1 crossbow with 2 mods and iron bolts, and 1/5 in hidden strike does over 200 dmg on a body shot, double (or more) that on head. I have no agility yet and no archery perks either. Its easly the best sneak attack weapon in the game with the crossbows.

[zztong]

3 hours ago, DJDaedrik said:

Kiting early hordes out in the open is an extremely inefficient way to kill your highest volume of XP early game. Set up a hatch hallway or a basic melee fighting position and stab away (since knives are in Agi, they're the natural pick for horde nights). You'll kill at least 10x as many and get WAY more XP than running around shooting arrows at them.

 

Sure, but efficient XP generation is a different conversation to me. Indeed, stealth isn't the fast way to generate XP when clearing a POI either. But bow kiting a horde is still valid play and not impossible.

 

Good point about the skill points ... I forgot sneak shot, so 10 points to max that wouldn't get used on a horde.

 

3 hours ago, DJDaedrik said:

I don't know if you've ever sneaked into the feral wight corridor on a late game character with high loot stage on an infested mission, but I promise you, even with a mega crush and full Cardio, you're not gonna escape the the fastest zombies in the game that all know right where you are and are completely surrounding you. You just get to fight them in melee on a character heavily invested into never being in melee, wearing light armor. Instant death with no counterplay isn't really fun.

 

Sure, but that's what I throw into the "not 100%" part of stealth to me. There will be some unavoidable encounters and I will end up falling back to firearms to clear the fast wight before ditching the others to take with stealth. That's part of the fun.

 

And, sometimes, I'll anticipate the fight and prepare the terrain for the fight, so that I've got a fall-back point, exit, or barriers to. If you're into hatches, as you mentioned when talking about hordes, put some down. I don't mind poking holes in walls, etc.

[DJDaedrik]

9 hours ago, zztong said:

 

Sure, but that's what I throw into the "not 100%" part of stealth to me. There will be some unavoidable encounters and I will end up falling back to firearms to clear the fast wight before ditching the others to take with stealth. That's part of the fun.

 

And, sometimes, I'll anticipate the fight and prepare the terrain for the fight, so that I've got a fall-back point, exit, or barriers to. If you're into hatches, as you mentioned when talking about hordes, put some down. I don't mind poking holes in walls, etc.

 

That's all well and good if you're a seasoned player, fully familiar with the POI, have firearms and skills to go with them, and the hatches/blocks in your inventory. Which basically means that the only valid way to clear POIs with triggered events in them with stealth is to know them ahead of time, have a bunch of extra stuff prepped, and... not use stealth? A first time player is going to see the sneak skills, think, "Oh man, I loved my sneaky guy in Skyrim!", and start down that path, only to find out that 50% of POIs after tier 3 have unavoidable encounters that are impossible to see beforehand, and they'll get absolutely murdered every time, with no reasonable counterplay. Sounds to me like your solutions boil down to "just know the POI and build mini horde bases before these encounters", which is poor game design.

 

What I'm advocating for is  giving players a way to use a playstyle that is already in the game without having to know every damn POI front to back, then resort to cheesy crap like triggering rooms and running back to a bunch of hatches and pre-prepped defenses. Forcing players to abandon their chosen playstyle and use the alternate method simply makes them wonder what the point was of even going for that playstyle in the first place.

 

Some creative POI design could easily fix this. Having paths to sneaky high ground areas that are difficult to reach, but great for sniping down a good chunk of the forces of that event would reward careful and observant progress through the areas. Especially if they straight up require the Parkour skill (natural for sneak builds to grab) to access. This leans into that playstyle and enhances the fantasy of being a covert ops sniper without breaking the immersion or requiring players to die multiple times per POI just to find out where their sneak fails for no discernible reason. Some type of audible or visible warning before entering a dangerous area could be an easier and less immersive option. Pay attention, and you'll actually know beforehand. Then only the patient and careful players have a chance of not being ambushed, rewarding the playstyle instead of punishing it. Even changing the behavior of the zombies as I've mentioned above would make these events more tolerable. Maybe treat the encounter like a soft trigger, where the closest 2 zombies are alerted, but not full aggro, and come searching for the player, giving the player a sneaky chase section where they have to carefully backtrack to hide and take out the curious zombies slowly to progress without alerting the now swarmed room in front of them.

 

It's really easy as 1000+ hour seasoned players to know what's gonna work beforehand and come at things tactically with tricks and cheese, but that doesn't make that good gameplay. That's a concession we've made due to the game not fully supporting the sneak playstyle, that we've gotten used to. If the devs truly leaned into the Sneak play and built around it, it could be SO much more fun and rewarding without requiring us to die 3 times and resort to cheese. Getting used to a rock in your shoe doesn't mean you shouldn't stop and shake it out when you have the chance.

[BFT2020]

3 minutes ago, DJDaedrik said:

 

That's all well and good if you're a seasoned player, fully familiar with the POI, have firearms and skills to go with them, and the hatches/blocks in your inventory. Which basically means that the only valid way to clear POIs with triggered events in them with stealth is to know them ahead of time, have a bunch of extra stuff prepped, and... not use stealth? A first time player is going to see the sneak skills, think, "Oh man, I loved my sneaky guy in Skyrim!", and start down that path, only to find out that 50% of POIs after tier 3 have unavoidable encounters that are impossible to see beforehand, and they'll get absolutely murdered every time, with no reasonable counterplay. Sounds to me like your solutions boil down to "just know the POI and build mini horde bases before these encounters", which is poor game design.

 

What I'm advocating for is  giving players a way to use a playstyle that is already in the game without having to know every damn POI front to back, then resort to cheesy crap like triggering rooms and running back to a bunch of hatches and pre-prepped defenses. Forcing players to abandon their chosen playstyle and use the alternate method simply makes them wonder what the point was of even going for that playstyle in the first place.

 

Stealth was broken in Skyrim, when you could literally be crouched in front of the enemy and they couldn't detect you.

 

I tend to play agility builds and invest in hidden strike / from the shadows.  I don't use blocks / hatches and my handgun is there only if the situation gets out of control; but stealth in this game is simply not walking into a space, be completely undetected, and shoot zombies with impunity.  Sometimes, you have to retreat to break their line of sight and get them to forget about you (stop searching).   In a lot of cases, stealth will allow you to pre-clear a room, but in some cases, you need to retreat first before you approach the situation from  stealth standpoint.

 

You don't need to know the POIs in order to be successful, just be aware where you are, where you can retreat to, and most importantly what doors you can close as you retreat to slow down the zombies and give you more time out of sight and more time to find a spot to hide.

 

At the beginning, you are going to have it rough.  Your awareness meter will be higher, it takes longer for the zombies to lose interest in you, and you haven't maxed out archery / hidden strike yet...but by mid / late game, you will find yourself be able to come close to zombies  and knife them for even higher sneak damage than the bow.

 

Throw in the new assassin armor......

 

I actually enjoy the stealth style in this game, as it makes you react to the situation rather than always being in control.  I think it is rather boring to simply enter each area crouched, kill all the sleeping zombies, and move onto the next room.

[zztong]

59 minutes ago, DJDaedrik said:

That's all well and good if you're a seasoned player, fully familiar with the POI, have firearms and skills to go with them, and the hatches/blocks in your inventory. Which basically means that the only valid way to clear POIs with triggered events in them with stealth is to know them ahead of time, have a bunch of extra stuff prepped, and... not use stealth? A first time player is going to see the sneak skills, think...

 

I'm a bit lost as we sometimes talk of a high level character with maxed out stealth abilities and gear and we sometimes speak of a new player with no experience. I can only conclude I'm missing something and am in the way of your advocacy. Sorry about that.

 

As a designer, I have made light use of triggers thus far because of issues you and others have raised. I want to make use of them, but I also want to take care that they don't lead to trigger outcomes that I don't like. What percentage of zombie encounters in a large POI do you think are okay with a trigger?

 

I wouldn't say you have to know the POI in advance nor carry around hatches/blocks. I usually carry around wood to make a ladder, or bars, or whatever. Or to repair a damaged door so that it will take a bit more punishment. I tend to scrap chairs that are in my way, giving me wood and clearing my stealth path.

 

I would agree a good stealth player is a prepared player and that a new player doesn't necessarily know what to prepare. I would agree a new player is unfamiliar with 7D2D generalities, such as where designers tend to place zombies, so they're unlikely to open a feeble door from across the room with a bow. They're also unlikely to avoid light sources, not salvage light sources that are in their way, or for that matter, they're also unlikely to avoid trash on the floor.

[DJDaedrik]

I feel like there's been a lot of focus on minutia, and very little focus on the overarching point I'm trying to make. We've talked about both early and late game because both have examples of the impact of triggered events on stealth. All of the arguments I've seen are along the lines of how you can use -insert non-stealth mechanic/playstyle here- to work around a problem with the stealth playstyle in its current form. The main point I'm attempting to make is that when a player is presented with a playstyle as an option, they should be able to approach the game that way without being punished for it. Obviously they should still be challenged, and I've dropped many different ideas on how to do that fairly, and I'm sure there are many, many more! If I stealth into a room in a new POI with all the stealth boxes checked (no light, crouching, proper gear, skill investment according to level, clearing noise traps, testing for loose/breakable floors, etc.) and 15 zombies are magically aware of my presence and raining from the ceiling, even though I did nothing different than the last 25 rooms I've entered, that is a bad gameplay experience. It's like saying that heavily armored builds with 5/5 Pain Tolerance and 5/5 Heavy Armor are too hard to challenge with normal radiated zombies, so magically one room removes your armor or random zombies have 100% armor penetration.

 

If, as a POI developer, your only way to change up the experience for stealth players is to negate their entire point investment, gear investment, and playstyle through a trigger, I would contend that you're limiting your own creativity. There's obviously no limit or minimum to triggers to use in a POI that is fun for all playstyles. The real limit is creativity, and the game engine itself.

[stample]

Many Alphas ago, there was a mechanic put in, which I assume still works, where zombies have a random detection threshold that the player cannot know.  If your stealth is above that threshold, and you get close, they detect you.  A lot of this info is still in Stealth.txt, but I don't see the exact values anymore.

 

The problem we have with stealth now is that stealth, maxed out, gets SO GOOD, that I think you can always below that threshold.  And the response was to add triggered events where they know where you are.

 

Why not reduce the max possible stealth to more like 4 instead of 1-2, and have that threshold be capable of being as low as 1 or 2? (I don't remember the possible values, this was years ago but it was a good range).

 

My point being, instead of overusing a mechanic that completely negates stealth, why can't we have exceptionally alert zombies that will may wake up if you get too close, no matter how stealthy you think you are?    Maybe this represents an unlucky combination of a creaky floorboard, or you farted at a bad time, or maybe a bird outside ran into a window and it wasn't even you that woke the zed up, he just saw you when he did.  Rather than the entire room aggroing, sometimes one will wake up that you need to deal with quickly and quietly so as to avoid waking up the rest.  And it won't always be in the same room or the same zombie.  Good players will handle it, unlucky ones or inexperienced players may aggro a room and get killed and learn how to handle it in the future.

 

This would give us a much more random "uh oh" moment, be far less frequent (given the right values being set), and give a responsive, skilled player the ability to avoid the more drastic consequences of fighting an entire room unexpectedly.

 

Not saying remove triggers entirely, but use them way less and rely on detection mechanic to bring some random encounters in.

[Kosmic Kerman]

16 hours ago, DJDaedrik said:

I feel like there's been a lot of focus on minutia, and very little focus on the overarching point I'm trying to make. We've talked about both early and late game because both have examples of the impact of triggered events on stealth. All of the arguments I've seen are along the lines of how you can use -insert non-stealth mechanic/playstyle here- to work around a problem with the stealth playstyle in its current form. The main point I'm attempting to make is that when a player is presented with a playstyle as an option, they should be able to approach the game that way without being punished for it. Obviously they should still be challenged, and I've dropped many different ideas on how to do that fairly, and I'm sure there are many, many more! If I stealth into a room in a new POI with all the stealth boxes checked (no light, crouching, proper gear, skill investment according to level, clearing noise traps, testing for loose/breakable floors, etc.) and 15 zombies are magically aware of my presence and raining from the ceiling, even though I did nothing different than the last 25 rooms I've entered, that is a bad gameplay experience. It's like saying that heavily armored builds with 5/5 Pain Tolerance and 5/5 Heavy Armor are too hard to challenge with normal radiated zombies, so magically one room removes your armor or random zombies have 100% armor penetration.

 

If, as a POI developer, your only way to change up the experience for stealth players is to negate their entire point investment, gear investment, and playstyle through a trigger, I would contend that you're limiting your own creativity. There's obviously no limit or minimum to triggers to use in a POI that is fun for all playstyles. The real limit is creativity, and the game engine itself.

 

You are making the way more complicated then it needs to be. You want to be able to complete an entire POI without being detected. The Devs don't share your desire and the devs don't think that is a "bad gameplay experience."  Part of the experience they want to create is zombies dropping on you from above, you dropping through a trap floor into a room full of zombies, and loot rooms with massive amounts of zombies that can't be picked off from outside of the room. They want oh sh#% moments. That doesn't happen if you can crouch and kill everything with an arrow from 20 meters away. That's the beginning and end of the argument.