This game is emergency lacking in QoL changes (List)

[zztong]

4 hours ago, Unamelable said:

Such a W for community to just saying to mod the game instead of fixing problems. Its not a freaking panacea people

 

Yes and no. I mean, if we're talking about the community you likely won't get agreement on what the problems are. If the Devs embraced your list and implemented everything there would be folks complaining about problems. You make your case just like the rest of us. The Devs take some of it, ignore some of it. You can mod around their decisions, or not.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Riamus said:

If there is a mechanic or preference that seems very popular, then it would be something the devs might consider.

 

Even this can be problematic. I'm not saying they wouldn't consider making a very popular feature from a very popular mod part of the native vanilla experience, but people need to remember that the dev's purpose is not just to craft a game with great features but also to craft a great vanilla platform for modding. From the very start they wanted this project to be a springboard for modders and they really do want it to be a rich vanilla base upon which modders can add their own flavors. If they do their job right then we get lots of overhaul mods that are different and unique from each other. If they go too far in adding fan-favorite flavors from a popular mod then every overhaul mod will just feel like variations of that mod since that mod is the new base.

 

Every time I hear someone complain that the game is so basic compared to this mod or that mod and that the devs are getting out-done by the modders who are doing really special things to push the creative envelope of the game, I smile and think: Good Job TFP. That's some great vanilla you made.

[Unamelable]

25 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Even this can be problematic. I'm not saying they wouldn't consider making a very popular feature from a very popular mod part of the native vanilla experience, but people need to remember that the dev's purpose is not just to craft a game with great features but also to craft a great vanilla platform for modding. From the very start they wanted this project to be a springboard for modders and they really do want it to be a rich vanilla base upon which modders can add their own flavors. If they do their job right then we get lots of overhaul mods that are different and unique from each other. If they go too far in adding fan-favorite flavors from a popular mod then every overhaul mod will just feel like variations of that mod since that mod is the new base.

 

Every time I hear someone complain that the game is so basic compared to this mod or that mod and that the devs are getting out-done by the modders who are doing really special things to push the creative envelope of the game, I smile and think: Good Job TFP. That's some great vanilla you made.

On this side I could be wrong, as before I expected the vanilla version of the game and developed by the developers as it is now. That is, an unpolished platform for improvement for modding community. But then again, where is Steam Workshop?

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Unamelable said:

On this side I could be wrong, as before I expected the vanilla version of the game and developed by the developers as it is now. That is, an unpolished platform for improvement for modding community. But then again, where is Steam Workshop?

 

Steam Workshop is primarily a way for the community to easily download mods and has little do with modders making mods. The evidence of this is all of the mods we already have and without Steam Workshop being some kind of requirement.  In fact, I'd go so far to say that from the modder's perspective Steam Workshop will be more of a PITA than an assistance.

 

But as to your question of where it is you need only look at the primary source document that accompanied the 1.0 announcement to know precisely the plan for Steam Workshop and so I must wonder whether there was some other purpose in your asking the question.

[zztong]

7 hours ago, Roland said:

In fact, I'd go so far to say that from the modder's perspective Steam Workshop will be more of a PITA than an assistance.

 

Perhaps, but I hope not. If it can handle dependencies and correct installation, it will take some of the support load off of the modders. It would also mean people don't have to search 3 websites and the forums to find the mods.

 

8 hours ago, Unamelable said:

That is, an unpolished platform for improvement for modding community.

 

I disagree with this opinion. The TFP development practices and slow prototyping approach is working well. Mods will always have the advantage of scratching an itch and making something better for whoever installed it, but there will always be people -- a majority of people -- who don't install that mod because it wasn't an issue to them. I would argue modders aren't attracted to bad games; they're attracted to good ones.

[Unamelable]

9 minutes ago, zztong said:

 

Perhaps, but I hope not. If it can handle dependencies and correct installation, it will take some of the support load off of the modders. It would also mean people don't have to search 3 websites and the forums to find the mods.

 

 

I disagree with this opinion. The TFP development practices and slow prototyping approach is working well. Mods will always have the advantage of scratching an itch and making something better for whoever installed it, but there will always be people -- a majority of people -- who don't install that mod because it wasn't an issue to them. I would argue modders aren't attracted to bad games; they're attracted to good ones.

 

This game has a foundation that has been unironically made easy to mod. Plus the game has for very many years had a real sandbox where everything can be broken, and taken apart for resources. That works fine. And hopefully the hands of TFP won't change what worked. Like water, for example.

If a game has a very horrible list of customization options when creating a world, then that's one serious problem. Again, I wrote a couple things in my post about missing things in the UI that can be easily changed via mods that change files in the /config folder. As a player who originally logged into the game, I play vanilla. And after sorting out all the mechanics I want to cry)))

 

I'll take Unturned and Project Zomboid again as a comparison. Both are in the same sandbox setting mechanics. They have 5-7 times more settings than in 7DTD if you don't count manual editing in /config folder.

There's literally a thread from reddit 9 hours ago about what players don't like about 7DTD, why am I even ranting about it here

 

 

Edited May 12 by Unamelable (see edit history)

[Unamelable]

 

Like seriously this is the best source for feedback. What's stopping developers from listening?

 

Damn it, LISTEN to the players for a minute. I feel offended because a lot of the things that are said on reddit affect me. I'd sit there right now and take individual comments and write here what I agree with people there.

[SylenThunder]

2 hours ago, Unamelable said:

 

Like seriously this is the best source for feedback. What's stopping developers from listening?

 

Damn it, LISTEN to the players for a minute. I feel offended because a lot of the things that are said on reddit affect me. I'd sit there right now and take individual comments and write here what I agree with people there.

 

They do listen. However, the minority complaining isn't the voice of the majority. They had in-game tracking that told them how many people played one way or the other. They could see what % of their players were using mods, and which ones were the most popular. They can get direct metrics from Steam on who is playing solo, co-op, or on servers, and could see the previous personal data from server data as well.

 

Just because you are loud, does not mean you are right, or that you speak for the majority.

 

Also, don't assume that just because the developer doesn't make a change, or makes an adverse change, that they are not listening. They have their own plans and goals for what the game is supposed to be like. Sometimes a change is just a steppingstone to further changes down the road on a much wider scope.

Remember, you aren't the one developing the game. It isn't your project. 

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Unamelable said:

 

Like seriously this is the best source for feedback. What's stopping developers from listening?

 

Damn it, LISTEN to the players for a minute. I feel offended because a lot of the things that are said on reddit affect me. I'd sit there right now and take individual comments and write here what I agree with people there.

What makes you think they haven’t listened? Why are you so certain they haven’t looked at Reddit, Steam, here, Twitter, discord, streamers, and fan sites and read comments?  
 

If all you want them to do is listen for a minute then I can assure you that they have done so many many times over. That doesn’t mean they will agree that jars should come back or that progression should be a hybrid between learn by doing and learn by reading, or that changes that make the game more conducive to a min/max efficiency gameplay style should be prioritized, or that changes that make the game primarily balanced for high population PvP servers should be implemented. 
 

Your comments all seem to assume that the version you are playing (A21) is essentially what is going to be released as 1.0. It’s not. You are playing a 9 month old obsolete version of the game. You don’t know what has been polished over the last 9 months. We will all find out in a few weeks.  Your entire list of gripes is for a version that will forever reside in the Steam beta branch after 1.0 releases. 

I’ve played the most recent build and can see evidence that the devs have heard the feedback and made adjustments accordingly. They haven’t abandoned their designs but they’ve made adjustments to address community concerns. The game still may not be to your liking after 1.0 but you can be at peace that the devs listened for several minutes to your precious Reddit (among other feedback sources) when making their design choices. 

 

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

the devs have heard the feedback and made adjustments accordingly.

Wohoo, jars are coming back!!

 

(sry )

[zztong]

9 hours ago, Unamelable said:

If a game has a very horrible list of customization options when creating a world, then that's one serious problem.

 

9 hours ago, Unamelable said:

I'll take Unturned and Project Zomboid again as a comparison. Both are in the same sandbox setting mechanics. They have 5-7 times more settings than in 7DTD if you don't count manual editing in /config folder.

 

I would certainly appreciate more options in world generation and game configuration choices presented to me by the UI when starting a game, but I disagree the current state is "one serious problem." I think your position in this case is overly dramatic, but it's easy to get the wrong impression from people's writing. I'd no doubt understand your position better if this were a conversation over beers.

 

Again, it's easy for me to unintentionally misread you, so my apologies if that is the case. Your chosen method of persuasion seems to be to attempt to convince the Devs they are out of touch and incompetent and that if they'd only listen to you, then you would set them straight. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I'm echoing what I think I'm hearing you say in the hope that it might be useful to you.

 

9 hours ago, Unamelable said:

There's literally a thread from reddit 9 hours ago about what players don't like about 7DTD, why am I even ranting about it here

 

I can't speak to why you are, as you put it, ranting here. Please know that I'm happy you've come and are expressing your opinion even if I disagree with some of it.

 

I'm not trying to discount Reddit. I read Reddit and Steam daily and chat there sometimes. But, in my opinion, both Reddit and Steam are more likely to whip up a frenzy over misinformation and misinterpretation. To me, this TFP forum is more likely to yield reliable information and is usually a more congenial place to chat.

[zztong]

 

6 hours ago, Roland said:

Your comments all seem to assume that the version you are playing (A21) is essentially what is going to be released as 1.0. It’s not. You are playing a 9 month old obsolete version of the game. You don’t know what has been polished over the last 9 months. We will all find out in a few weeks.  Your entire list of gripes is for a version that will forever reside in the Steam beta branch after 1.0 releases.

 

You're certainly correct, that vast majority of us speak of A21 as that's what we've got. Still, I'd hesitate to imply anyone's list of A21 gripes is pointless. It sort of begs the question: "After how many weeks/months into playing A22/1.0 do opinions about it become moot because A23 is being developed?"

[Roland]

1 hour ago, zztong said:

 

 

You're certainly correct, that vast majority of us speak of A21 as that's what we've got. Still, I'd hesitate to imply anyone's list of A21 gripes is pointless. It sort of begs the question: "After how many weeks/months into playing A22/1.0 do opinions about it become moot because A23 is being developed?"

Cute response and I won’t claim any definitive cutoff point other than saying A21 feedback was most helpful and relevant while A21.x updates were still being pushed out, still very important for months after that as devs would be making balance changes and looking at feedback for what they wanted to do for 1.0, but probably least important just 3 weeks before the next major update. I feel pretty secure in saying that when streamer weekend is taking applications that at that point it’s more useful to just see what the new update brings. 

[Unamelable]

2 hours ago, zztong said:

 

 

I would certainly appreciate more options in world generation and game configuration choices presented to me by the UI when starting a game, but I disagree the current state is "one serious problem." I think your position in this case is overly dramatic, but it's easy to get the wrong impression from people's writing. I'd no doubt understand your position better if this were a conversation over beers.

 

Again, it's easy for me to unintentionally misread you, so my apologies if that is the case. Your chosen method of persuasion seems to be to attempt to convince the Devs they are out of touch and incompetent and that if they'd only listen to you, then you would set them straight. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I'm echoing what I think I'm hearing you say in the hope that it might be useful to you.

 

 

I can't speak to why you are, as you put it, ranting here. Please know that I'm happy you've come and are expressing your opinion even if I disagree with some of it.

 

I'm not trying to discount Reddit. I read Reddit and Steam daily and chat there sometimes. But, in my opinion, both Reddit and Steam are more likely to whip up a frenzy over misinformation and misinterpretation. To me, this TFP forum is more likely to yield reliable information and is usually a more congenial place to chat.

 

I guess I'm really overdramatizing things since I hold everything close to my heart. And I'm basing this on the experience I've had with other games where I didn't feel as much discomfort as I did with 7DTD. Which is probably why the game seems to have fundamental problems.

[zztong]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

I feel pretty secure in saying that when streamer weekend is taking applications that at that point it’s more useful to just see what the new update brings. 

 

Heh, yeh. Okay, that makes a nice line. Time to go shred all of my A21 gripes.

[zztong]

58 minutes ago, Unamelable said:

I guess I'm really overdramatizing things since I hold everything close to my heart. And I'm basing this on the experience I've had with other games where I didn't feel as much discomfort as I did with 7DTD. Which is probably why the game seems to have fundamental problems.

 

Maybe this doesn't entirely echo what you're saying, but I can completely understanding being into something deep enough to have an investment into it and want to see improvements. I can understand disappointment when something liked was changed or where something changed seems worse than before.

 

Two changes that I didn't care for related to Farming and Water. I can recognize and acknowledge the Devs put more thought into it than I have, have all the game play stats, and ultimately have a better handle on the situation than I do. At the same time, I don't really like spending time replanting my seeds, nor do I like being unable to carry water away from a water source. I've realized playing Vanilla with those things is still a good game. When I play solo, I mod them to my preferences. I'm really very thankful that XML modding is usually pretty easy.

 

I could continue to rail against those changes, but I'm only one of a great many players. I know from reading this community that the Devs do read, listen, and respond though I assume they also have to pick their engagement carefully as it probably could consume a lot of their time.

[Roland]

30 minutes ago, zztong said:

 

Heh, yeh. Okay, that makes a nice line. Time to go shred all of my A21 gripes.

Don’t shred them. At least some will be able to be recycled after 1.0 comes out. Let’s not expect miracles…

😂

[Unamelable]

The game already has pop-up tags over zombies. They are very much needed to mark the area/zombies to finish the quest quickly

[zztong]

51 minutes ago, Unamelable said:

The game already has pop-up tags over zombies. They are very much needed to mark the area/zombies to finish the quest quickly

 

It would make a nice option, but I don't even really care for the "red dot radar" on the compass when doing a clear mission, so I'm not likely to turn that on.

 

That's coming from the Twitch integration, so presumably an option or a mod could enable that. (That's a guess on my part.)

 

Something I've thought about is an option to let players add a number (0, 1, 2...) to the "ShowQuestClearCount" setting found in each POI's XML. That is, if the option were set to "2" then 2 would be added to each POI's ShowQuestClearCount value when a clear mission was started. The result would be the hint dots (gold dots) would be shown when there were X+2 (instead of X) zombie volumes left to be cleared.

 

My apologies if you already know this, but there's a "Pimp Dreams" area on these boards and that's generally where suggestions are made. I think suggestions are better received when they come one at a time, rather than a single exhaustive list, but I have seen both in that area. I mention it because if I were a Dev with limited time, I'd probably scan that area for titles and skim the ideas, rather than hope to find an appealing suggestion deep in some conversation elsewhere.

Edited May 13 by zztong (see edit history)

[Unamelable]

12 minutes ago, zztong said:

 

It would make a nice option, but I don't even really care for the "red dot radar" on the compass when doing a clear mission, so I'm not likely to turn that on.

 

That's coming from the Twitch integration, so presumably an option or a mod could enable that. (That's a guess on my part.)

 

Something I've thought about is an option to let players add a number (0, 1, 2...) to the "ShowQuestClearCount" setting found in each POI's XML. That is, if the option were set to "2" then 2 would be added to each POI's ShowQuestClearCount value when a clear mission was started. The result would be the hint dots (gold dots) would be shown when there were X+2 (instead of X) zombie volumes left to be cleared.

 

My apologies if you already know this, but there's a "Pimp Dreams" area on these boards and that's generally where suggestions are made. I think suggestions are better received when they come one at a time, rather than a single exhaustive list, but I have seen both in that area. I mention it because if I were a Dev with limited time, I'd probably scan that area for titles and skim the ideas, rather than hope to find an appealing suggestion deep in some conversation elsewhere.

 

I can't move topics to other sections. Only a moderator can do that. I still wanted to make a list of potential solutions that could solve all of the above problems that can be discussed with the community.

[zztong]

Just now, Unamelable said:

 

I can't move topics to other sections. Only a moderator can do that. I still wanted to make a list of potential solutions that could solve all of the above problems that can be discussed with the community.

 

You could carve out individual suggestions and mention them there in a new topic. You don't need a moderator for that. The "General Discussion" approach isn't bad. You'll certainly get discussion. I guess what I'm suggesting is that anything that seems well formed and with support, "Pimp Dreams" might get more notice. That's a guess, of course. If I knew the secret to getting an idea noticed and being able to perfectly persuade anyone, I'd... probably not share it. LOL. Heh, I mean everyone would be doing it and it would no longer be effective.

[SylenThunder]

Yeah, I have moved a couple of Unamelable's threads to Pimp Dreams because they were framed as a suggestion. This thread was framed as a discussion.

Edited May 13 by SylenThunder (see edit history)