Exquisite feedback from a charismatic player

[Old Crow]

8 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Oh, I forgot to take the DOT damage into account for the comparison

 

Wait... the stun baton has DOT?

[BFT2020]

54 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

 

Wait... the stun baton has DOT?

Have you never seen a zombie die from electrical shock?

[Vaeliorin]

23 hours ago, theFlu said:

You don't really need the aoe to gain decent control over several targets with it. Three is a lot to control without it, for sure, you'll need to kite effectively, but it's a whole lot easier than with the clubs.

 

I did some cursory testing of the difference earlier today, curiously my Q6 Baseball Bat did 67 damage on a power strike, and the Q6 Stun Baton did 66 when including the dot damage. I didn't check if the dot scales.

 

Either weapon, unskilled, against rad healing is just fishing for a decap anyway, which feels a lot smoother with the baton stuns.

My problem with the baton is even fully perked into it, it's mostly decap fishing against any serious enemy.  And since it doesn't kill things quickly, it doesn't get the stamina restore from sex rex/flurry of blows, which means you end up running out of stamina.  It's fine against a few enemies, but against 5+ rad bikers, I can kill them easily with the club, knife or spear, but I'll spend half an in-game day trying to kill them with the baton (or fists, but I'm probably biased against the fists because of the attack range.)

 

And yes, I know you're going to bring up the turrets again, but you don't always have a chance to set up turrets, they chew through ammo (and thus become useless) incredibly quickly, and I have enough stuff on my hotbar that I don't really have room for 2 turrets there all the time.

[meganoth]

36 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

My problem with the baton is even fully perked into it, it's mostly decap fishing against any serious enemy.  And since it doesn't kill things quickly, it doesn't get the stamina restore from sex rex/flurry of blows, which means you end up running out of stamina.  It's fine against a few enemies, but against 5+ rad bikers, I can kill them easily with the club, knife or spear, but I'll spend half an in-game day trying to kill them with the baton (or fists, but I'm probably biased against the fists because of the attack range.)

 

And yes, I know you're going to bring up the turrets again, but you don't always have a chance to set up turrets, they chew through ammo (and thus become useless) incredibly quickly, and I have enough stuff on my hotbar that I don't really have room for 2 turrets there all the time.

 

Exactly. It's almost giving the impression INT might not be a combat class, right? 😁

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, Vaeliorin said:

And yes, I know you're going to bring up the turrets again,

Well, my original point was only that there's No Point in comparing the damage of a baton to the damage of the clubs, they're completely different beasts.

Would I bring up turrets? Well, that's half the reason they're completely different.

 

Did a bit of testing, blurb:

 

Spoiler

As the target environment is "all of the rads" the game stage is "whatever spec and mods I want". No books thou, don't want to spoil my test character with those.

Q6 Turret
Rad remover, Barrel extender, Drum mag, Full Auto
=>
26.6 damage (with mods), 288 actual mag capacity

Rad Bikers, (AI off)

Rounds to kill:

Nomad difficulty

 

Normal ammo, open field
88, 75, 53, 68, 62

against a wall
56, 49, 57, 58, 56

 

AP ammo, open field
37, 44, 41, 49, 39

against a wall
39, 37, 37, 32, 39

 

Insane difficulty

AP ammo, against a wall:
87, 80, 72, 75, 80

 

With AP ammo, nominal difficulty, 288 rounds from a single turret should take out 5-7 rads between reloads. For two right clicks, that's a hefty amount of damage.
Even the three on Insane isn't all that horrible.

 

The turrets aren't weak, while the batons are. INT just actually plays differently.

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

It's almost giving the impression INT might not be a combat class, right?

Oh, but it very much is. It destroys prepped fights, choke points etc, and the amount of "oh surprise, 5 rads" in the game is pretty minimal. It takes prep to excel, but most of the time you can just as well setup even after agroing something.

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, Vaeliorin said:

And yes, I know you're going to bring up the turrets again, but you don't always have a chance to set up turrets, they chew through ammo (and thus become useless) incredibly quickly, and I have enough stuff on my hotbar that I don't really have room for 2 turrets there all the time.

 

Not putting 2 turrets on your hotbar is not an issue with playing a pure Int build, that's a choice by the player not to utilize all the strengths of the Int only build.  It's like a strength build maxing out boomstick, then just walking around all the time with pistols and rifles.

 

I have either 2 (for turret perk level 0 to 4) or 3 (for turret perk level 5) junk turrets on my hotbar.  Two to deploy and one ready to go when 1 or 2 run out so I can deploy another one while reloading.  That leaves me with 7 slots that typically filled with stun baton, knife, bow or crossbow, firearm, first aid, axe, and salvage tool.  Other tools are usually just in my inventory to pull out when I need them.  If I am at the stage of coming across radiated zombies, then I make sure one of the turrets have rad remover installed - the other one typically has cripple em mod installed.

 

I have never came across a situation where I could not setup turrets.  Even if you are surprised, you can simply run away and deploy the turrets.  As soon as the zombies cross in front of them, they will start shooting.  And if you are playing Insane / Nightmare, again not an issue with the Int build, you just need to learn to always be ready to deploy turrets at a moment's notice as the game is not balanced towards those settings.

[Old Crow]

On 2/10/2023 at 2:32 AM, BFT2020 said:

Have you never seen a zombie die from electrical shock?

 

I have not!

[Vaeliorin]

On 2/10/2023 at 12:21 PM, BFT2020 said:

Not putting 2 turrets on your hotbar is not an issue with playing a pure Int build, that's a choice by the player not to utilize all the strengths of the Int only build.  It's like a strength build maxing out boomstick, then just walking around all the time with pistols and rifles.

My hotbar always contains the same items, in pretty much every game I play that has similar items to 7 Days.  Slot 1 pickaxe, slot 2 shovel, slot 3 axe, slot 4 melee weapon, slot 5 "Oh Sh!t" ranged weapon.  For 7 Days specifically, slot 6 is a bow/crossbow, slot 7 is my "free slot", slot 8 is healing, slot 9 is blocks and slot 10 is my upgrade tool.  I've played like this so long that it's ingrained, and having things arranged differently really messes with me.

 

So technically, yes, I could change my slot layout, but I'd be constantly hitting wrong buttons.  No other tree needs the extra slots taken up on the hotbar (I suppose you could argue that I could put a turret in slot 5, but a turret really doesn't have the same uses as a shotgun or automatic weapon.)  Perhaps I'm too much a creature of habit (that seems to happen as you get older) but it's like trying to play a game that uses non-standard keyboard or controller layouts, it's just uncomfortable and weird, and you end up hitting the wrong buttons and getting yourself in a bad situation or killed.

[theFlu]

40 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

Perhaps I'm too much a creature of habit (that seems to happen as you get older) but it's like trying to play a game that uses non-standard keyboard or controller layouts, it's just uncomfortable and weird, and you end up hitting the wrong buttons and getting yourself in a bad situation or killed.

Changing things is hard, but perfectly viable. Easier to do with changes that don't really mess up your game, as bad eventts take the motivation out quite quick.

 

For instance, for your setup, you have 4 tool slots. You won't have many, if any, moments in the game where you need a tool "right now". So while there's routine to swap to the tools, if you pull out a turret instead, it's not going to hurt you. A rocket launcher might, but you can wait until you've accustomed for those...

Condensing those 4 to one slot would free up 1,2,3. For swapping the tools, get into a routine of: swap into tool slot, open inventory, click on wanted tool, keypress "equip". This equips the tool into into the tool slot and swaps the old tool where the new one was. Keeps your tools "sorted" in the inventory while you earn three more instantly usable items.

 

Train the routine two dozen times specifically, and then a few repeats at the start of the next session, for a few sessions. Done.

[FA_Q2]

I find it rather odd that anyone would state that INT is underpowered in any way.  For me, INT is not just the most powerful tree, it is more powerful by a MASSIVE amount.  Double turrets are, IMHO, the fastest means to clear any area.  The Traps cover horde night though you can acess those other ways and the extras you get at the trader increases basically everything.  

 

Dual turrets are by far the most powerful weapon you have available to you.  They will clear the top floor of a T5 for you if you just run in a circle.

[Boop]

On 2/13/2023 at 2:10 AM, FA_Q2 said:

I find it rather odd that anyone would state that INT is underpowered in any way.  For me, INT is not just the most powerful tree, it is more powerful by a MASSIVE amount.  Double turrets are, IMHO, the fastest means to clear any area.  The Traps cover horde night though you can acess those other ways and the extras you get at the trader increases basically everything.  

 

Dual turrets are by far the most powerful weapon you have available to you.  They will clear the top floor of a T5 for you if you just run in a circle.

What is it that makes it the most powerful? The turrets? The width of play styles it can create?

Also, less importantly, do you believe INT needs a nerf, and if so what do you think should be nerfed?

I'm asking because I'm trying my hand at modding, changing attributes and skills and how they interact with stuff, and INT is the most intuitive support tree for that.