Is alpha 21 going to make a bookstore the most important find in the game?

[ElCabong]

Right now, if I find one early on, I leave it alone. A full stack of paper is worthless. On day one. And you know where it's at so when you need paper you can go get it.

 

Looks like with this new learn by reading idea, you're going to want to clean that place out soon as you can. You may not find what you want and change your development path based on what you find too.

 

Edit: just occurred to me that most of the bookshelves may not have anything but paper. Still still might be a waste of time on day one.

Edited January 8, 2023 by ElCabong (see edit history)

[Rotor]

Origami is also a new trait?

[ElCabong]

3 minutes ago, Rotor said:

Origami is also a new trait?

Might be. Something to do at night when it's raining and you don't want to go outside and feed the bears. I think most people will use paper for shotgun shells though

[ElDudorino]

Crack a Book is still loaded with books on day 1 in a20. Paper too, sure, but I'm not going to say no to 8 free recipe books.

 

But yeah I saw a post from Roland about how bookstores are even more useful in a21 than in a20. So it's still going to be the most useful early-game PoI as it is now.

[Rotor]

To the most useful early game poi is mail boxes.  I have more luck with those than the Craig a books, and less dangerous as well.

[Syphon583]

15 hours ago, ElCabong said:

Right now, if I find one early on, I leave it alone. A full stack of paper is worthless. On day one. And you know where it's at so when you need paper you can go get it.

 

Looks like with this new learn by reading idea, you're going to want to clean that place out soon as you can. You may not find what you want and change your development path based on what you find too.

 

Edit: just occurred to me that most of the bookshelves may not have anything but paper. Still still might be a waste of time on day one.

Pretty sure @Roland has confirmed multiple times that Crack-a-books are incredibly useful in A21, almost OP. I wouldn't doubt some adjustments will be made, but I would count on finding a lot less paper in bookshelves.

[Roland]

16 hours ago, Syphon583 said:

Pretty sure @Roland has confirmed multiple times that Crack-a-books are incredibly useful in A21, almost OP. I wouldn't doubt some adjustments will be made, but I would count on finding a lot less paper in bookshelves.

 

Yeah! Get those bookstores while they're good in A21. Who knows whether they'll be as good in A22...

[eXSe]

Yeah... I feel that if it proves itself as good as "learning stuff some other way", they will promptly kill it 😁

[Roland]

Finding a few city blocks worth of houses all with mailboxes out next to the streets is also a joyful discovery. Almost like trick-or-treating.

[bdubyah]

I feel they should make some other kind of books to help the loot out. Because no one wants to loot a bookstore of any size and just find empty shelves or paper, but that's how it really has to be to keep them from being OP. Maybe just some books that just give you 500xp or something for reading them, something good enough players won't hate finding them more than once, but not necessarily game changing either. Maybe some generic melee book that adds a one-time 5% damage boost. Or even make it 1% but let players read them several times.

 

And also, the paper used to be a good find back when people had to actually spend significant time crafting shotgun shells. But ammo is so plentiful in A20 that you can usually get by without ever really crafting any if you just use a bit of melee and buy what the trader has from time to time. So maybe if they'd nerf ammo loot just a bit it would push finding paper back to being useful again.

 

34 minutes ago, Roland said:

Finding a few city blocks worth of houses all with mailboxes out next to the streets is also a joyful discovery. Almost like trick-or-treating.

 

Roland, have mailboxes/newspaper stands been tweaked at all in a21 that you know of? In A20 it's a bit crazy how you can complete whole book series in a day or two. I could've sworn at one point MM was touting the book series as a way to extend the game for people who liked to loot and complete things. And yet they keep making it easier and easier to find said books...

[Roland]

1 hour ago, bdubyah said:

I feel they should make some other kind of books to help the loot out. Because no one wants to loot a bookstore of any size and just find empty shelves or paper, but that's how it really has to be to keep them from being OP. Maybe just some books that just give you 500xp or something for reading them, something good enough players won't hate finding them more than once, but not necessarily game changing either. Maybe some generic melee book that adds a one-time 5% damage boost. Or even make it 1% but let players read them several times.

 

And also, the paper used to be a good find back when people had to actually spend significant time crafting shotgun shells. But ammo is so plentiful in A20 that you can usually get by without ever really crafting any if you just use a bit of melee and buy what the trader has from time to time. So maybe if they'd nerf ammo loot just a bit it would push finding paper back to being useful again.

 

 

Roland, have mailboxes/newspaper stands been tweaked at all in a21 that you know of? In A20 it's a bit crazy how you can complete whole book series in a day or two. I could've sworn at one point MM was touting the book series as a way to extend the game for people who liked to loot and complete things. And yet they keep making it easier and easier to find said books...

 

I think the loot balance of A21 will be more to your liking.

[Riamus]

2 hours ago, bdubyah said:

I feel they should make some other kind of books to help the loot out. Because no one wants to loot a bookstore of any size and just find empty shelves or paper, but that's how it really has to be to keep them from being OP. Maybe just some books that just give you 500xp or something for reading them, something good enough players won't hate finding them more than once, but not necessarily game changing either. Maybe some generic melee book that adds a one-time 5% damage boost. Or even make it 1% but let players read them several times.

 

And also, the paper used to be a good find back when people had to actually spend significant time crafting shotgun shells. But ammo is so plentiful in A20 that you can usually get by without ever really crafting any if you just use a bit of melee and buy what the trader has from time to time. So maybe if they'd nerf ammo loot just a bit it would push finding paper back to being useful again.

 

 

Roland, have mailboxes/newspaper stands been tweaked at all in a21 that you know of? In A20 it's a bit crazy how you can complete whole book series in a day or two. I could've sworn at one point MM was touting the book series as a way to extend the game for people who liked to loot and complete things. And yet they keep making it easier and easier to find said books...

I'm pretty sure they said paper in book loot would not be anything like it is now.  It'll be a lot less common.  Keeping in mind you'll need hundreds of magazines to complete everything (if you want to complete everything), you can't limit loot too far.  As for empty shelves, I see nothing wrong with most shelves being empty.  Others would have been through there before you, after all.

[bdubyah]

5 hours ago, Riamus said:

I'm pretty sure they said paper in book loot would not be anything like it is now.  It'll be a lot less common.  Keeping in mind you'll need hundreds of magazines to complete everything (if you want to complete everything), you can't limit loot too far.  As for empty shelves, I see nothing wrong with most shelves being empty.  Others would have been through there before you, after all.

That is true with all the new magazines I guess. But even those don't need to be too common.

To me the best solution is making books/magazines/schems all a bit more rare from bookshelves/mailboxes and have paper stay the same. So maybe, it would work out to 25% chance of a book item, 25% for nothing, 50% for paper. And as I said, nerf the damn ammo down some so people actually have to craft it again. That was always the biggest use of paper afaik. And a20 mostly killed that use. Every loot bag has ammo, no matter what. Most other ammo piles and loot containers have a high if not guaranteed chance for ammo. The repetition I see in A20's loot is annoying. Hopefully A21 adds a bit more variety.

[Rotor]

So, are traders still OP in A21?

[BFT2020]

15 minutes ago, Rotor said:

So, are traders still OP in A21?

We don't know yet.

[Roland]

They are just P in A21.

[Riamus]

16 hours ago, bdubyah said:

Every loot bag has ammo, no matter what.

Not that I see.  I see ammo often, but definitely not in every bag.

 

That doesn't mean ammo isn't easy too common, of course.  The only ammo I don't fill a box with quickly is .44.  9mm too, if I use turrets.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[bdubyah]

42 minutes ago, Riamus said:

Not that I see.  I see ammo often, but definitely not in every bag.

 

That doesn't mean ammo isn't easy too common, of course.  The only ammo I don't fill a box with quickly is .44.  9mm too, if I use turrets.

<lootgroup name="groupZpackReg" count="all">
	<item group="groupAmmoMedium" count="1"/>
	<item group="groupZpackReg01" count="2"/>
	<item group="groupZpackReg02" loot_prob_template="med" force_prob="true"/>
	<item group="groupZpackReg03" loot_prob_template="low" force_prob="true"/>
</lootgroup>

That's the group called when you loot a normal zombie loot bag. Either 10-20 9mm, 8-15 7.62, 8-12 .44, 8-12 shotgun shells, or 8-12 iron arrows or bolts. It's so cookie cutter it's painful. And I don't remember ever getting one without ammo. Maybe you just aren't counting arrows/bolts in that category? Either way, it makes regular old zombies ammo delivery services on top of making opening those loot bags fairly boring. Which is the opposite of what it should be, really.

[Riamus]

Hmm. Maybe it is the arrows making me not think it always includes ammo. I'd have to pay more attention, I suppose.  Honestly, though... I rarely pay much attention to what is in those bags. I just hit E then R and continue on.  Too often, there just isn't anything worth noting in them, so I don't take time to look closely.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[zombiehunter]

17 hours ago, Riamus said:

Hmm. Maybe it is the arrows making me not think it always includes ammo. I'd have to pay more attention, I suppose.  Honestly, though... I rarely pay much attention to what is in those bags. I just hit E then R and continue on.  Too often, there just isn't anything worth noting in them, so I don't take time to look closely.

And another point, at least in my experience, is that especially in early game those loot bags the Zs drop are few and far between so I don't think ammo in the early game is too plentiful.  I always try to preserve my ammo using melee until I really start to need it as the days go by.  By then I usually have a fair amount that I can use when I need it, just by looting it and saving it.  I do tend to craft ammo anyway just so I know I have enough to blast away on horde night without worrying that I'm going to run out.

[ElDudorino]

Zombie loot bags are super rare outside of horde night, so I would never think of them as a source of ammo other than to replenish during/after a blood moon.

 

But since every PoI has a loot room I can still count on oodles of ammo everywhere I go.

[bdubyah]

That's the thing though. Loot bags are rare, but there are ammo piles in nearly every POI now. Every main loot area has them usually, and the locked chests usually have some as well. Treasures are usually large amount of ammo. Quests rewards are ammo more often than not. Traders always have a bunch of ammo. You can even find small amounts in other random loot. It's everywhere now. Lol.

[Riamus]

I would just say that I would not want us to go in the other direction.  There are games where ammo is so rare/limited that you have to always go for one hit kills, sneak everywhere, and use other weapons than guns.  There isn't anything wrong with a game like that, but I don't really care for those.  I'm fine with some balancing in the amount of ammo, but not too far the other way.

[bdubyah]

It doesn't have to go that far, but it's already gone too far towards ammo being basically infinite. Personally, I'd be fine with it being "a game like that" because, ya know, survival. But that pushes it into more of a niche, so I understand them not doing that. But they already lowered default difficulty, and most of the changes made from A19 on have made the game easier in general. Ammo, gas, weapons, vehicles, traders, etc. Too easy. It does seem like A21 might finally bring some balance to some of these things, so hopefully they've dialed back at least a little.

 

A lot of this could be remedied in a vanilla way with better game options. More loot slider options would be great. Or if loot percentage as it is now worked better than it does.